The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

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Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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No, as it's taken out of context--the whole of what I said should be addressed.
The gift cannot be the payment:

1) Christ's atoning death is the payment for sin.
2) "...The gift of God is eternal life"
3) Christ paid the debt on cross. Salvation isn't nailed to the cross. Salvation did not die.
4) Belief in Messiah = Salvation

Is not your point still: the gift (salvation = eternal life) is not the payment (death on cross)?
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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John 10:6
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
And the parable ends at v.6. So what follows isn't a parable but rather, figures of speech.

These are equal. This is the power of the Almighty. "The lamb was slain from the foundation of the world." This was the most pivotal moment in time in all of reality. Past, present, and future. He who was, who is, and who will be died for all those who were, who are, and who are to come...when they believed in Him. For His sheep.
You have NO verses that say that Christ didn't die for everyone or died ONLY for some.

Until you find any, you have no point and no support for your theory.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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And the parable ends at v.6. So what follows isn't a parable but rather, figures of speech.


You have NO verses that say that Christ didn't die for everyone or died ONLY for some.

Until you find any, you have no point and no support for your theory.
Ok thanks!
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
And the parable ends at v.6. So what follows isn't a parable but rather, figures of speech.

You have NO verses that say that Christ didn't die for everyone or died ONLY for some.

Until you find any, you have no point and no support for your theory.
You are very welcome!

Please understand that I study the Bible the way Bereans did.

Acts 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

I examine the Scriptures every day and I so far haven't seen anything you've posted that is true.
 

Laura798

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Jun 6, 2020
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Please don't start these accusations of twisting like the others do, Laura. Twisting. I can only reply to what I read/see. I posted the quote I was replying to as written. The quote said "the gift is not the payment". I replied to that, assuming first a weakness in this form of communication and NOT first assuming any malevolent motive. So I'd appreciate the same assumption from you. But if you're going to accuse I'll promptly conclude this exchange.



There are only two states for mankind: Death or eternal life. One is either condemned to death or one has eternal life. If the one (death) is paid, the other (eternal life) IS. This is why Paul contrasts the two in the passage. They are the opposites of each other.

The Messiah didn't take care of the one to then later on deliver the other. The gift is "taking care of the one so that the other is so, NOW" because the only reason mankind dies is because of sin. So if one's death is paid for, the result is eternal life for that one. It's a foregone conclusion for the believer.


John 11:25-26
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

The gift of eternal life IS the substitutionary payment for the death owed.
Joshua--I can't explain any better than I have--Christ paid the penalty for the sins of the whole world with his death--that was the payment God required. The gift given to us thru our faith in Christ and His substitutionary death is salvation--saved from what? From God's condemnation and from the second death! And if we are saved from this death what do we receive--eternal life!

I found something else you said that confuses me just as much as the other statement you made:

"The gift of eternal life IS the substitutionary payment for the death owed."

"How would eternal life be the payment for the death owed?" I'm sorry, Joshua, but this is completely backwards!:eek: Eternal life is the GIFT. Death is the payment owed. Christ paid that payment with his death on the cross.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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Joshua--I can't explain any better than I have--Christ paid the penalty for the sins of the whole world with his death--that was the payment God required. The gift given to us thru our faith in Christ and His substitutionary death is salvation--saved from what? From God's condemnation and from the second death! And if we are saved from this death what do we receive--eternal life!

I found something else you said that confuses me just as much as the other statement you made:

"The gift of eternal life IS the substitutionary payment for the death owed."

"How would eternal life be the payment for the death owed?" I'm sorry, Joshua, but this is completely backwards!:eek: Eternal life is the GIFT. Death is the payment owed. Christ paid that payment with his death on the cross.
Probably will be my last few posts on this thread. What are we saved from?

Death.

What's the result?

eternal life.

-----

Eternal life = to live forever. Not die.

Death = to expire; to cease to be. Not live forever

The GIFT of eternal life = Eternal Life's Gift

That GIFT is to have the sin debt paid. This is a GIFT because we didn't work for it nor can we make the payment. The Messiah worked for it. This GIFT...results in eternal life...BECAUSE one is no longer condemned to die. If one is no longer condemned to die they will never die. They live forever. They are saved from death. Salvation.

"…Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.”''Acts 16:30-31
John 11:25-26
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

If both of the quoted passages above are true...

- (Acts 16:30-31) Believe in the Messiah = Saved.

- (John 11:25-26) Believe in the Messiah = To live, never die.


....then the following is also true.


- Saved = To live, never die


If A = B ...and A = C ...then B = C
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Romans 6:26
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Saved = The Gift

The Gift = eternal life
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
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Probably will be my last few posts on this thread. What are we saved from?

Death.

What's the result?

eternal life.

-----

Eternal life = to live forever. Not die.

Death = to expire; to cease to be. Not live forever

The GIFT of eternal life = Eternal Life's Gift

That GIFT is to have the sin debt paid. This is a GIFT because we didn't work for it nor can we make the payment. The Messiah worked for it. This GIFT...results in eternal life...BECAUSE one is no longer condemned to die. If one is no longer condemned to die they will never die. They live forever. They are saved from death. Salvation.






If both of the quoted passages above are true...

- (Acts 16:30-31) Believe in the Messiah = Saved.

- (John 11:25-26) Believe in the Messiah = To live, never die.


....then the following is also true.


- Saved = To live, never die


If A = B ...and A = C ...then B = C
Joshua--some of what you say here doesn't answer the question as to your statement here:

"The gift of eternal life IS the substitutionary payment for the death owed."

Can you see why I don't believe this makes sense?

And if you want to call Jesus' death the gift--I guess that's fine but my point was Salvation is a gift, not the payment. Typically Christ's death is called 'sacrifice' 'substitutionary', 'penalty' etc. -- In any case I don't understand why you would want to argue that point since I am simply making a point based on scripture--that salvation is the gift we receive as a result of our faith in Christ and His substitutionary death. His death is the payment for our sins and not as you say "Salvation is the payment."

In any case, I think I'm done with this forum as well--I hope I will see you in other forums and regardless that we do not hold the same views hopefully we can remain friends on these forums.

blessings,

laura
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
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Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Romans 6:26
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Saved = The Gift


The Gift = eternal life
But Joshua--that isn't what you said--that is what I said. You said 'Salvation was the payment':confused:
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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But Joshua--that isn't what you said--that is what I said. You said 'Salvation was the payment':confused:

Romans 5:15-18
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many!

16 Again, the gift is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment that followed one sin brought condemnation, but the gift that followed many trespasses brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.



The Gift = justification


Romans 3:24-26
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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Joshua--some of what you say here doesn't answer the question as to your statement here:

"The gift of eternal life IS the substitutionary payment for the death owed."

Can you see why I don't believe this makes sense?

And if you want to call Jesus' death the gift--I guess that's fine but my point was Salvation is a gift, not the payment. Typically Christ's death is called 'sacrifice' 'substitutionary', 'penalty' etc. -- In any case I don't understand why you would want to argue that point since I am simply making a point based on scripture--that salvation is the gift we receive as a result of our faith in Christ and His substitutionary death. His death is the payment for our sins and not as you say "Salvation is the payment."

In any case, I think I'm done with this forum as well--I hope I will see you in other forums and regardless that we do not hold the same views hopefully we can remain friends on these forums.

blessings,

laura
Be blessed.
 
Nov 21, 2020
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No, I'm asking for just ONE verse that says in very plain unambiguous words that Christ either DIDN'T die for everyone, or that He ONLY died for some.

Is that too difficult to find?

I've already given you a number of verses that make clear that He DID die for everyone. And you didn't even try to refute any of them.
I gave you my answer, either accept it or not
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
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Probably will be my last few posts on this thread. What are we saved from?

Death.
What's the result?
eternal life.
Eternal life = to live forever. Not die.
Death = to expire; to cease to be. Not live forever
I think you don't understand what spiritual death really is. It is separation from God. Not "to cease to be". In fact, all unbelievers will exist "forever and ever" in the "Second Death" or Lake of Fire.

The answer to what we are saved from is found in the 3 tenses of salvation.

1. Past tense: we HAVE BEEN saved from the penalty of sin. John 5:24 We call this justification.
2. Present tense: we ARE BEING saved from the power of sin. Eph 5:18 We call this sanctification.
3. Future tense : we WILL BE saved from the presence of sin. Rom 8:30 We call this glorification.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
No, I'm asking for just ONE verse that says in very plain unambiguous words that Christ either DIDN'T die for everyone, or that He ONLY died for some.

Is that too difficult to find?

I've already given you a number of verses that make clear that He DID die for everyone. And you didn't even try to refute any of them.
I gave you my answer, either accept it or not
you are aware, I hope, that your answer didn't include ANY verse that unambiguously said that Christ's death wasn't for everyone.

If you actually had a verse that was unambiguous about that, I would obviously have to believe it and rearrange my understanding about all the verses I have provided that actually SAY that He died for everyone.

But you don't have any such unambiguous verse, yet you continue to believe what is contrary to Scripture.

Interesting.

Sad.
 
Nov 21, 2020
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Fruit of Christ's Death !

What is meant by fruit is the effects and product of Christ's Death for all whom He died, for He died an Covenental Death Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament or covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Isa 42:6

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

And because of this Death certain effects must take place according to that Covenant. One of the things is that God will be the God of those Christ died for and they His People in a experiential way Heb 8:10

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Remember when Jesus said to Mary this Jn 20:17

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Yes, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ is their Father and God Eph 1:3

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Sure, God is the God over all mankind as the Creator , but not in this Covenental sense through Jesus Christ !

This experiential becoming God's People is done by giving them a new inner life, implanting in them new spiritual principles, they shall be sprinkled with Clean water, taking away their natural hearts of stone, and given a heart of flesh Ezk 36:25-27

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

That New Heart, the word for heart leb:

inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding

a) inner part, midst

1) midst (of things)

2) heart (of man)

3) soul, heart (of man)

4) mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory

5) inclination, resolution, determination (of will)

6) conscience

7) heart (of moral character)

8) as seat of appetites

9) as seat of emotions and passions

10) as seat of courage
Click to expand...​

Notice also Vs 25, God will cleanse them from all their Idols, for thats important in becoming experientially the People of God.

And because of this Promise, that is why all for whom Christ died turn from their idols as here and serve the Living God 1 Thess 1:8-9

8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.

9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;224

Yes this turning from Idols here is a confirmation of the promise in Ezk 36:25 and its an effect,a fruit of Christ's Covenental Death. This is the Blood of Christ, the Covenant Blood [Matt 26:28; Heb 13:20] producing its Covenental Effects Heb 9:14

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ or His Death, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
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Fruit of Christ's Death !

What is meant by fruit is the effects and product of Christ's Death for all whom He died, for He died an Covenental Death Matt 26:28
The Bible says repeatedly that Christ died for everyone. I have shared them with you.

28 For this is my blood of the new testament or covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
The Greek word for "many" means just that; many, as opposed to "few".

And, in that same gospel, Matthew also wrote this:
Matt 7:14 - But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

So, which is it? Did Christ die for MANY, or ONLY A FEW?

What should be obvious is that "many" is a word of generality. If in fact Christ had only died for those who are on the road that "leads to life", then neither Matthew or any other writer would use the word "many" in reference to His death.

Certainly the number of saved peope is FAR LESS than the number of unsaved people, as Matt 7:14 very clearly indicates.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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The Bible says repeatedly that Christ died for everyone. I have shared them with you.


The Greek word for "many" means just that; many, as opposed to "few".

And, in that same gospel, Matthew also wrote this:
Matt 7:14 - But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

So, which is it? Did Christ die for MANY, or ONLY A FEW?

What should be obvious is that "many" is a word of generality. If in fact Christ had only died for those who are on the road that "leads to life", then neither Matthew or any other writer would use the word "many" in reference to His death.

Certainly the number of saved peope is FAR LESS than the number of unsaved people, as Matt 7:14 very clearly indicates.
post 778 did you understand it ? You want to discuss the points?