The Author and Date of The Book of Job

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SilverFox7

Well-known member
Dec 24, 2022
295
262
63
Grand Rapids, Michigan
#1
As I continue my journey through this remarkable book, I love the mystery surrounding the authorship and composition date.

As a Christian literary scholar, the Book of Job is in the same realm of the great classics of ancient literature, and I would argue it is at the top of the list with the rest of the Old Testament because it is God's Word and revelation to humanity. The Bible is the most important literary gift God has blessed us with by far.

Hardcore scholars have a tough time pinning The Book of Job down to an agreed upon date. The best guess they can somewhat agree upon is somewhere between the 2nd and 7th centuries B.C. According to Halley's Bible Handbook, "Ancient Jewish tradition ascribed the book to Moses." Wow, that would double the date estimated by scholars! I really like Halley's conclusion on the matter: "Modern Critics assign a much later date to the book of Job [than the time of Moses], but in the end it is the content of the book that is important, not our speculative guesses about its origins." Sorry Mr. Halley, I do have to speculate a little (fun to do so, but not a matter of salvation of course...:D).

The idea of the character of Job being an ancient story about an actual person that dates back to Moses or even earlier is intriguing. I also find merits in the actual written composition of the story taking place in that 2nd-7th century period due to the sophistication of the poetry/prose. It reminds me so much of reading the great classical dramas and poetry of that era.

In the midst of Job's deepest sorrows and suffering, the level of faith and prophetic insight he expresses is incredible. The author(s) appear to have had access and inspiration to a vast theological and literary library that implies to me having at the minimum the law, the prophets, and most of the writings composed in the Old Testament. The prose/poetry has a level of sophistication that reminds me of the Greek golden era of the classics (~300 B.C.).

The verse below is a great example and one of the best known and quoted from this book:

For I Know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth;

And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God. (Job 19: 25-26)


This is a blaring reference to Christ's return and the resurrection of the dead, which the prophets and psalmists are only given glimpses of in Old Testament times. The Book of Ezekiel (~565 - 593 B.C.) gives a concrete description of a resurrection (see Ezekiel 37 as an example). The Book of Job wrestles with Old Testament teachings as a whole to glean new insights into our relationship with God, and it nicely sets the stage for New Testament teachings based on the solid foundation of our Rock, Jesus Christ!
 

IsaiahA

Active member
Jan 24, 2023
114
67
28
#2
As I continue my journey through this remarkable book, I love the mystery surrounding the authorship and composition date.

As a Christian literary scholar, the Book of Job is in the same realm of the great classics of ancient literature, and I would argue it is at the top of the list with the rest of the Old Testament because it is God's Word and revelation to humanity. The Bible is the most important literary gift God has blessed us with by far.

Hardcore scholars have a tough time pinning The Book of Job down to an agreed upon date. The best guess they can somewhat agree upon is somewhere between the 2nd and 7th centuries B.C. According to Halley's Bible Handbook, "Ancient Jewish tradition ascribed the book to Moses." Wow, that would double the date estimated by scholars! I really like Halley's conclusion on the matter: "Modern Critics assign a much later date to the book of Job [than the time of Moses], but in the end it is the content of the book that is important, not our speculative guesses about its origins." Sorry Mr. Halley, I do have to speculate a little (fun to do so, but not a matter of salvation of course...:D).

The idea of the character of Job being an ancient story about an actual person that dates back to Moses or even earlier is intriguing. I also find merits in the actual written composition of the story taking place in that 2nd-7th century period due to the sophistication of the poetry/prose. It reminds me so much of reading the great classical dramas and poetry of that era.

In the midst of Job's deepest sorrows and suffering, the level of faith and prophetic insight he expresses is incredible. The author(s) appear to have had access and inspiration to a vast theological and literary library that implies to me having at the minimum the law, the prophets, and most of the writings composed in the Old Testament. The prose/poetry has a level of sophistication that reminds me of the Greek golden era of the classics (~300 B.C.).

The verse below is a great example and one of the best known and quoted from this book:

For I Know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth;

And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God. (Job 19: 25-26)

This is a blaring reference to Christ's return and the resurrection of the dead, which the prophets and psalmists are only given glimpses of in Old Testament times. The Book of Ezekiel (~565 - 593 B.C.) gives a concrete description of a resurrection (see Ezekiel 37 as an example). The Book of Job wrestles with Old Testament teachings as a whole to glean new insights into our relationship with God, and it nicely sets the stage for New Testament teachings based on the solid foundation of our Rock, Jesus Christ!
Hi Silver Fox, those verses you quoted are indeed well known and traditional, but for centuries there have been questions over the translation and interpretation of them. I'll give some alternate translations and a footnote out of the Roman Catholic Study Bible.

21Pity me, pity me, you that are my friends;
for the hand of God has touched me.
22Why do you pursue me as God pursues me?
Have you not had your teeth in me long enough?
23O that my words might be inscribed,
O that they might be engraved in an inscription,
24cut with an iron tool and filled with lead
to be a witness [to ... witness: or for ever] in hard rock!
25But in my heart I know that my vindicator lives
and that he will rise last to speak in court;
26and I shall discern my witness standing at my side [my witness ... side:
prob. rdg, Heb unintelligible
]
and see my defending counsel, even God himself,
27whom I shall see with my own eyes,
I myself and no other. (New English Bible, 1970)
https://www.katapi.org.uk/NEB/18 job.pdf

21 Pity me, pity me, O my friends, for the hand of the Lord hath touched me.
22 Why do you persecute me as the Lord doth, and are not satisfied with my flesh?
23 O that my words were written and recorded in a book forever!
24 That they were engraven with a graver of iron on lead, or on rocks!
25 For I know that he is eternal,
26 who is about to dissolve me on earth, to raise again this skin of mine which draweth up these things. 27 For from the Lord those things have been done to me, of which I alone am conscious; which mine eyes have seen, and no other; and which have all been done to me in my bosom. (Septuagint)

21 Pity me, pity me, you my friends,
for the hand of God has struck me!
22 Why do you pursue me like God,
and prey insatiably upon me?
23 Oh, would that my words were written down!
Would that they were inscribed in a record:[c]
24 That with an iron chisel and with lead
they were cut in the rock forever!
25 As for me, I know that my vindicator lives,[d]
and that he will at last stand forth upon the dust.
26 This will happen when my skin has been stripped off,
and from my flesh I will see God:
27 I will see for myself,
my own eyes, not another’s, will behold him:
my inmost being is consumed with longing. (New American Bible-Catholic)

"[d] 19:25–27 The meaning of this passage is obscure because the original text has been poorly preserved and the ancient versions do not agree among themselves. Job asserts three times that he shall see a future vindicator (Hebrew goel), but he leaves the time and manner of this vindication undefined. The Vulgate translation has Job indicating a belief in resurrection after death, but the Hebrew and the other ancient versions are less specific."

I'm not Roman Catholic and the verses you quoted have been dear to me through life also, but recently I've come to think about distinguishing "church tradition" from "Scripture tradition" and have been trying to rethink some passages. I'm not including the cardinal doctrines of course concerning salvation and the deity of Christ. It is interesting that the 2021 NRSVue changed Redeemer in v25 to vindicator and placed "redeemer" in the footnote.
 

SilverFox7

Well-known member
Dec 24, 2022
295
262
63
Grand Rapids, Michigan
#3
Hi Silver Fox, those verses you quoted are indeed well known and traditional, but for centuries there have been questions over the translation and interpretation of them. I'll give some alternate translations and a footnote out of the Roman Catholic Study Bible.

21Pity me, pity me, you that are my friends;
for the hand of God has touched me.
22Why do you pursue me as God pursues me?
Have you not had your teeth in me long enough?
23O that my words might be inscribed,
O that they might be engraved in an inscription,
24cut with an iron tool and filled with lead
to be a witness [to ... witness: or for ever] in hard rock!
25But in my heart I know that my vindicator lives
and that he will rise last to speak in court;
26and I shall discern my witness standing at my side [my witness ... side:
prob. rdg, Heb unintelligible
]
and see my defending counsel, even God himself,
27whom I shall see with my own eyes,
I myself and no other. (New English Bible, 1970)
https://www.katapi.org.uk/NEB/18 job.pdf

21 Pity me, pity me, O my friends, for the hand of the Lord hath touched me.
22 Why do you persecute me as the Lord doth, and are not satisfied with my flesh?
23 O that my words were written and recorded in a book forever!
24 That they were engraven with a graver of iron on lead, or on rocks!
25 For I know that he is eternal,
26 who is about to dissolve me on earth, to raise again this skin of mine which draweth up these things. 27 For from the Lord those things have been done to me, of which I alone am conscious; which mine eyes have seen, and no other; and which have all been done to me in my bosom. (Septuagint)

21 Pity me, pity me, you my friends,
for the hand of God has struck me!
22 Why do you pursue me like God,
and prey insatiably upon me?
23 Oh, would that my words were written down!
Would that they were inscribed in a record:[c]
24 That with an iron chisel and with lead
they were cut in the rock forever!
25 As for me, I know that my vindicator lives,[d]
and that he will at last stand forth upon the dust.
26 This will happen when my skin has been stripped off,
and from my flesh I will see God:
27 I will see for myself,
my own eyes, not another’s, will behold him:
my inmost being is consumed with longing. (New American Bible-Catholic)

"[d] 19:25–27 The meaning of this passage is obscure because the original text has been poorly preserved and the ancient versions do not agree among themselves. Job asserts three times that he shall see a future vindicator (Hebrew goel), but he leaves the time and manner of this vindication undefined. The Vulgate translation has Job indicating a belief in resurrection after death, but the Hebrew and the other ancient versions are less specific."

I'm not Roman Catholic and the verses you quoted have been dear to me through life also, but recently I've come to think about distinguishing "church tradition" from "Scripture tradition" and have been trying to rethink some passages. I'm not including the cardinal doctrines of course concerning salvation and the deity of Christ. It is interesting that the 2021 NRSVue changed Redeemer in v25 to vindicator and placed "redeemer" in the footnote.
Hi Isaiah,

Thank you so much for your detailed and thought-provoking response. The alternative translations offer some new insights I haven't considered, and they seem to more accurately fit within the context of Job's state-of-mind at the deepest levels of his suffering. Vindicator sheds a whole new light on these beautiful passages.

I wonder if the NKJV and other modern Christian translators looked at these verses from more of a prophetic perspective to highlight new revelations from the new covenant surrounding God's awesome plan to redeem His creation, return to establish His kingdom, and resurrect us to a new life in Jesus Christ forever.

Shalom,

Dave
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
16,776
6,845
113
#4
As I continue my journey through this remarkable book, I love the mystery surrounding the authorship and composition date.

As a Christian literary scholar, the Book of Job is in the same realm of the great classics of ancient literature, and I would argue it is at the top of the list with the rest of the Old Testament because it is God's Word and revelation to humanity. The Bible is the most important literary gift God has blessed us with by far.

Hardcore scholars have a tough time pinning The Book of Job down to an agreed upon date. The best guess they can somewhat agree upon is somewhere between the 2nd and 7th centuries B.C. According to Halley's Bible Handbook, "Ancient Jewish tradition ascribed the book to Moses." Wow, that would double the date estimated by scholars! I really like Halley's conclusion on the matter: "Modern Critics assign a much later date to the book of Job [than the time of Moses], but in the end it is the content of the book that is important, not our speculative guesses about its origins." Sorry Mr. Halley, I do have to speculate a little (fun to do so, but not a matter of salvation of course...:D).

The idea of the character of Job being an ancient story about an actual person that dates back to Moses or even earlier is intriguing. I also find merits in the actual written composition of the story taking place in that 2nd-7th century period due to the sophistication of the poetry/prose. It reminds me so much of reading the great classical dramas and poetry of that era.

In the midst of Job's deepest sorrows and suffering, the level of faith and prophetic insight he expresses is incredible. The author(s) appear to have had access and inspiration to a vast theological and literary library that implies to me having at the minimum the law, the prophets, and most of the writings composed in the Old Testament. The prose/poetry has a level of sophistication that reminds me of the Greek golden era of the classics (~300 B.C.).

The verse below is a great example and one of the best known and quoted from this book:

For I Know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth;

And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God. (Job 19: 25-26)

This is a blaring reference to Christ's return and the resurrection of the dead, which the prophets and psalmists are only given glimpses of in Old Testament times. The Book of Ezekiel (~565 - 593 B.C.) gives a concrete description of a resurrection (see Ezekiel 37 as an example). The Book of Job wrestles with Old Testament teachings as a whole to glean new insights into our relationship with God, and it nicely sets the stage for New Testament teachings based on the solid foundation of our Rock, Jesus Christ!
Job is very likely the biblical Jobab, noted as the fifth generation from Shem. His father Joktan was the brother of Peleg. Therefore Job/Jobab VASTLY predates both Moses AND Abraham. Abraham was actually born in about 2304 BC (contrary to common opinion!). The contents of the book unquestionably indicate an extremely early date......for many MANY reasons that simply cannot be "faked" into the text.

This notion that the book of Job was written between the 2nd and 7th century BC.....is preposterous hogwash. Nobody knows for sure, but no doubt the patriarchs before Abraham had manuscript copies. Copies of which we have in our bibles today.

This absurd late date is more liberal nutter pseudo-scholarly clueless gaslighting.

I have some superb reference material which I will post later tonight.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
16,776
6,845
113
#5
Job is very likely the biblical Jobab, noted as the fifth generation from Shem. His father Joktan was the brother of Peleg. Therefore Job/Jobab VASTLY predates both Moses AND Abraham. Abraham was actually born in about 2304 BC (contrary to common opinion!). The contents of the book unquestionably indicate an extremely early date......for many MANY reasons that simply cannot be "faked" into the text.

This notion that the book of Job was written between the 2nd and 7th century BC.....is preposterous hogwash. Nobody knows for sure, but no doubt the patriarchs before Abraham had manuscript copies. Copies of which we have in our bibles today.

This absurd late date is more liberal nutter pseudo-scholarly clueless gaslighting.

I have some superb reference material which I will post later tonight.
Barry Setterfield is a superb scholar of all things Biblical and ancient. You would do well to hear what he says.

Job's world (barrysetterfield.org)

 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
16,776
6,845
113
#6
Fast Forwarded to an interesting point of context.....

 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
16,776
6,845
113
#7
Barry has some great (and accurate IMO) insights. His multiple catastrophism model is correct.
I do not agree exactly with his dating schemes, and I also think that earth catastrophism correlated with cataclysmic electromagnetic events AT LEAST as much as meteor impacts and volcanism. But the severity of the catastrophes are not in question.

Such as demonstrated right here.....devastating electromagnetic/plasma paroxysms that beggar the imagination in their severity.




(1) andrew hall thunderbolts - YouTube
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
21,980
11,711
113
#8
Hardcore scholars have a tough time pinning The Book of Job down to an agreed upon date. The best guess they can somewhat agree upon is somewhere between the 2nd and 7th centuries B.C.
That is just nonsense. Job is probably the oldest book in the Bible, written by Job himself around 2,000 BC. It has many wonderful insights into many different topics discussed later on in the Bible.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
16,776
6,845
113
#9
That is just nonsense. Job is probably the oldest book in the Bible, written by Job himself around 2,000 BC. It has many wonderful insights into many different topics discussed later on in the Bible.
Earlier. Much MUCH earlier. Also, one need to make sure to use the LXX for dating purposes. The Masoretic patriarch lifespans were altered/corrupted by Rabbi Akiva around 100AD or so. He carved of 100 years from many of them. This is extremely well known, and matches all relevant NT quotes.

BTW, the lifespan of Job (248 years) is right in the range of Peleg's. And predates Abraham who lived 175 years.

https://christianchat.com/threads/the-author-and-date-of-the-book-of-job.209493/post-5018674

"Job is very likely the biblical Jobab, noted as the fifth generation from Shem. His father Joktan was the brother of Peleg. Therefore Job/Jobab VASTLY predates both Moses AND Abraham. Abraham was actually born in about 2304 BC (contrary to common opinion!). The contents of the book unquestionably indicate an extremely early date......for many MANY reasons that simply cannot be "faked" into the text."

Compare these ages of the patriarchs extracted from the LXX.....

HIS [is] the genealogy of men in the day in which God made Adam; in the image of God he made him: 2 male and female he made them, and blessed them; and he called his name Adam, in the day in which he made them. 3 And Adam lived two hundred and thirty years, and begot [a son] after his [own] form, and after his [own] image, and he called his name Seth. 4 And the days of Adam, which he lived after his begetting Seth, were seven hundred years; and he begot sons and daughters. 5 And all the days of Adam which he lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died. 6 Now Seth lived two hundred and five years, and begot Enos. 7 And Seth lived after his begetting Enos, seven hundred and seven years, and he begot sons and daughters. 8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years, and he died. 9 And Enos lived an hundred and ninety years, and begot Cainan. 10 And Enos lived after his begetting Cainan, seven hundred and fifteen years, and he begot sons and daughters. 11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years, and he died. 12 And Cainan lived an hundred and seventy years, and he begot Maleleel. 13 And Cainan lived after his begetting Maleleel, seven hundred and forty years, and he begot sons and daughters. 14 And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years, and he died. 15 And Maleleel lived an hundred and sixty and five years, and he begot Jared. 16 And Maleleel lived after his begetting Jared, seven hundred and thirty years, and he begot sons and daughters. 17 And all the days of Maleleel were eight hundred and ninety and five years, and he died. 18 And Jared lived an hundred and sixty and two years, and begot Enoch: 19 and Jared lived after his begetting Enoch, eight hundred years, and he begot sons and daughters. 20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred and sixty and two years, and he died.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
16,776
6,845
113
#10
That is just nonsense. Job is probably the oldest book in the Bible, written by Job himself around 2,000 BC. It has many wonderful insights into many different topics discussed later on in the Bible.
Barry is spot on with his dates back to Abraham, except for a 20 year error (Judges was 93 now 113....he has updated his website to correct this error!). These dates are extremely trustworthy.

Ancient Chronology (barrysetterfield.org)

And I misquoted the date of the birth of Abraham. It should be 2322 BC +/- a few years. SCROLL DOWN TO THE BOTTOM OF THE LINK to see a comparative matrix of dates!
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
16,776
6,845
113
#11
The Masoretic patriarch lifespans were altered/corrupted by Rabbi Akiva around 100AD or so. He carved off 100 years from many of them. This is extremely well known, and matches all relevant NT .
EDIT
To be clear......Akiva removed 100 years from the span of time given for the birth of the son.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
16,776
6,845
113
#12
Not many people grasp the significance of this verse (correctly rendered in the KJV BTW), but this proof text is that which defines the date of the exodus (1603 +/- BC) and birth of Abraham (2322 +/- BC).

Act 13:20
And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.

About = actually 473 years, given the 113 out of fellowship years seen in Judges.

1Ki 6:1
And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD.

Which then becomes 593 years when adding the 113 years from Judges.
Hope that makes sense to everybody.......:geek:
 

IsaiahA

Active member
Jan 24, 2023
114
67
28
#13
Hi Isaiah,

Thank you so much for your detailed and thought-provoking response. The alternative translations offer some new insights I haven't considered, and they seem to more accurately fit within the context of Job's state-of-mind at the deepest levels of his suffering. Vindicator sheds a whole new light on these beautiful passages.

I wonder if the NKJV and other modern Christian translators looked at these verses from more of a prophetic perspective to highlight new revelations from the new covenant surrounding God's awesome plan to redeem His creation, return to establish His kingdom, and resurrect us to a new life in Jesus Christ forever.

Shalom,

Dave
Dave, I was never actually a KJV only believer, but when checking newer versions I compared them to the KJV and considered the KJV to be the standard by which to judge other translations. After reading the full, many page Translators to the Readers Preface in early KJV Bibles, I began to seek ways to research into the Hebrew and Greek and compare by that method. I began to see that all translations are a product of their culture and certain perspectives, including the KJV.

One of my favorite Bible scholars is the Puritan Matthew Poole and he has an excellent scripture basis for dating Job to before Moses. He also gives his scriptural reasons for staying with the traditional understanding of Job 19:25-27. I'm far from being a literary scholar so I'd be interested what you think of Poole's reasoning from the scriptures themselves.
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/mpc/job.html

I like Bible commentaries that give me scripture comparisons to understand more fully, and Poole is good on that as well as John Gill. I have great respect for the Bible scholars of centuries past.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
16,776
6,845
113
#14
Earlier. Much MUCH earlier. Also, one need to make sure to use the LXX for dating purposes. The Masoretic patriarch lifespans were altered/corrupted by Rabbi Akiva around 100AD or so. He carved of 100 years from many of them. This is extremely well known, and matches all relevant NT quotes.

BTW, the lifespan of Job (248 years) is right in the range of Peleg's. And predates Abraham who lived 175 years.

https://christianchat.com/threads/the-author-and-date-of-the-book-of-job.209493/post-5018674

"Job is very likely the biblical Jobab, noted as the fifth generation from Shem. His father Joktan was the brother of Peleg. Therefore Job/Jobab VASTLY predates both Moses AND Abraham. Abraham was actually born in about 2304 BC (contrary to common opinion!). The contents of the book unquestionably indicate an extremely early date......for many MANY reasons that simply cannot be "faked" into the text."

Compare these ages of the patriarchs extracted from the LXX.....


HIS [is] the genealogy of men in the day in which God made Adam; in the image of God he made him: 2 male and female he made them, and blessed them; and he called his name Adam, in the day in which he made them. 3 And Adam lived two hundred and thirty years, and begot [a son] after his [own] form, and after his [own] image, and he called his name Seth. 4 And the days of Adam, which he lived after his begetting Seth, were seven hundred years; and he begot sons and daughters. 5 And all the days of Adam which he lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died. 6 Now Seth lived two hundred and five years, and begot Enos. 7 And Seth lived after his begetting Enos, seven hundred and seven years, and he begot sons and daughters. 8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years, and he died. 9 And Enos lived an hundred and ninety years, and begot Cainan. 10 And Enos lived after his begetting Cainan, seven hundred and fifteen years, and he begot sons and daughters. 11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years, and he died. 12 And Cainan lived an hundred and seventy years, and he begot Maleleel. 13 And Cainan lived after his begetting Maleleel, seven hundred and forty years, and he begot sons and daughters. 14 And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years, and he died. 15 And Maleleel lived an hundred and sixty and five years, and he begot Jared. 16 And Maleleel lived after his begetting Jared, seven hundred and thirty years, and he begot sons and daughters. 17 And all the days of Maleleel were eight hundred and ninety and five years, and he died. 18 And Jared lived an hundred and sixty and two years, and begot Enoch: 19 and Jared lived after his begetting Enoch, eight hundred years, and he begot sons and daughters. 20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred and sixty and two years, and he died.
Compare these ages of the patriarchs extracted from the LXX. Note the bolded text and compare to modern translations.

HIS [is] the genealogy of men in the day in which God made Adam; in the image of God he made him: 2 male and female he made them, and blessed them; and he called his name Adam, in the day in which he made them. 3 And Adam lived two hundred and thirty years, and begot [a son] after his [own] form, and after his [own] image, and he called his name Seth. 4 And the days of Adam, which he lived after his begetting Seth, were seven hundred years; and he begot sons and daughters. 5 And all the days of Adam which he lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died. 6 Now Seth lived two hundred and five years, and begot Enos. 7 And Seth lived after his begetting Enos, seven hundred and seven years, and he begot sons and daughters. 8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years, and he died. 9 And Enos lived an hundred and ninety years, and begot Cainan. 10 And Enos lived after his begetting Cainan, seven hundred and fifteen years, and he begot sons and daughters. 11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years, and he died. 12 And Cainan lived an hundred and seventy years, and he begot Maleleel. 13 And Cainan lived after his begetting Maleleel, seven hundred and forty years, and he begot sons and daughters. 14 And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years, and he died. 15 And Maleleel lived an hundred and sixty and five years, and he begot Jared. 16 And Maleleel lived after his begetting Jared, seven hundred and thirty years, and he begot sons and daughters. 17 And all the days of Maleleel were eight hundred and ninety and five years, and he died. 18 And Jared lived an hundred and sixty and two years, and begot Enoch: 19 and Jared lived after his begetting Enoch, eight hundred years, and he begot sons and daughters. 20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred and sixty and two years, and he died.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
16,776
6,845
113
#15
Not many people grasp the significance of this verse (correctly rendered in the KJV BTW), but this proof text is that which defines the date of the exodus (1603 +/- BC) and birth of Abraham (2322 +/- BC).

Act 13:20
And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.

About = actually 473 years, given the 113 out of fellowship years seen in Judges.

1Ki 6:1
And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD.

Which then becomes 593 years when adding the 113 years from Judges.
Hope that makes sense to everybody.......:geek:
Great analysis here of the 450 years and "missing" 113 years in Judges....scroll down to Will Kinney

Acts 13:20 450 Years - AV1611 Bible Forum Archive
 

SilverFox7

Well-known member
Dec 24, 2022
295
262
63
Grand Rapids, Michigan
#16
Dave, I was never actually a KJV only believer, but when checking newer versions I compared them to the KJV and considered the KJV to be the standard by which to judge other translations. After reading the full, many page Translators to the Readers Preface in early KJV Bibles, I began to seek ways to research into the Hebrew and Greek and compare by that method. I began to see that all translations are a product of their culture and certain perspectives, including the KJV.

One of my favorite Bible scholars is the Puritan Matthew Poole and he has an excellent scripture basis for dating Job to before Moses. He also gives his scriptural reasons for staying with the traditional understanding of Job 19:25-27. I'm far from being a literary scholar so I'd be interested what you think of Poole's reasoning from the scripturets themselves.
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/mpc/job.html

I like Bible commentaries that give me scripture comparisons to understand more fully, and Poole is good on that as well as John Gill. I have great respect for the Bible scholars of centuries past.
I've delved a little into Hebrew and Greek, and I wish I would have had more time to explore Hebrew in particular during my graduate studies. My mentors encouraged me to look at a variety of translations when exploring Biblical topics/verses. A broad-based cultural/historical approach is critical for thoroughly diving into the Word of God.

I have a Puritan heritage, so I will need to look into Poole (don't remember reviewing his work yet...:D). From a literary perspective, there is certainly a solid argument for Job living before Moses (he died much older than Moses according to the last verse of the text!). I will review the hyperlink you provided and give some detailed feedback on Poole's thoughts on Job in the near future.

More to come,

Dave
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,846
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#17
...Job is probably the oldest book in the Bible, written by Job himself around 2,000 BC. It has many wonderful insights into many different topics discussed later on in the Bible.
I would think this is the best estimate for a date...

It really is a fascinating book, and should be read, studied and meditated upon by believers...
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
16,776
6,845
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#18
I would think this is the best estimate for a date...

It really is a fascinating book, and should be read, studied and meditated upon by believers...
Job, son of Joktan (brother or Peleg), was contemporary with a son Peleg named Reu.

Gen 11:18
And Peleg lived thirty years, and begat Reu:
Gen 11:19
Gen 11:20
And Reu lived 132 years, and begat Serug:
And Peleg lived after he begat Reu two hundred and nine years, and begat sons and daughters.
Gen 11:21
And Reu lived after he begat Serug two hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters.

This lifespan of Reu accords well with that of Job (Job lived 248 years).
Reu was born around 2893 BC and died 2554 BC.

We can safely assume that Job wrote his memoirs before he died.
It is inconceivable that anyone else could have penned a Spirit breathed book like Job's is.
Therefore Job was written perhaps 2600 BC give or take. Sometime in the latter years of Job's lifetime.
 

IsaiahA

Active member
Jan 24, 2023
114
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#20
I've delved a little into Hebrew and Greek, and I wish I would have had more time to explore Hebrew in particular during my graduate studies. My mentors encouraged me to look at a variety of translations when exploring Biblical topics/verses. A broad-based cultural/historical approach is critical for thoroughly diving into the Word of God.

I have a Puritan heritage, so I will need to look into Poole (don't remember reviewing his work yet...:D). From a literary perspective, there is certainly a solid argument for Job living before Moses (he died much older than Moses according to the last verse of the text!). I will review the hyperlink you provided and give some detailed feedback on Poole's thoughts on Job in the near future.

More to come,

Dave
Don't feel pressure on any reply. I can't stay online daily for long periods myself. That website I mentioned has 128 commentaries and they are from Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, Church of England, Lutheran, etc. Most are from the past but the scholarship in some of these is excellent and helps me think things through. I've often heard that when checking a college it pays one where the professors all come from different colleges and universities. That way you get differing views that you can compare the scripture reasoning used. I even check the Roman Catholic commentary there as well. https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng.html

Dave, it's been great chatting with you and hope we can continue in the future!