The breaking of the power of the Holy People

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Larry_Stotle

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2014
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#1
Interestingly the futurists are at a loss to understand just who the holy people are in the Old Testament - some of them think it's the Roman Church.

They try and fit the "time, times, and an half" anywhere in history other than where it belongs - the 1st century AD.

(Dan 12:7 KJV) And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Dane 12:7 (NIV) The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.” - so just who are the "holy people"?

When deciding just who they are we must bear in mind that the bible is basically a "story" of Israel and it covenant relation to God.

"(Mat 15:24 KJV) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Lets look at a few verses from scripture that plainly state who the "holy people" are:

(Deu 7:6 KJV) For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

(Deu 14:2 KJV) For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

(Deu 14:21 KJV) .... for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God...

(Deu 26:19 KJV).....that thou mayest be an holy people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken.

(Deu 28:9 KJV)......The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself....

(Isa 62:12 KJV) And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

(Dan 8:24 KJV) And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Just as it is imperative to correctly identify the whor.e in the book of revelation to understand prophecy it is just as imperative to identify the "holy people" in Daniel.

The whor.e in revelation is avenges for killing the prophets:

(Rev 18:20 KJV) Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

We know precisely who the above is because Jesus implicitly told us:

(Mat 23:37 KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

(Mat 23:38 KJV) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

We can the destruction of the whor.e aka apostate 1st century Jerusalem whose house is left desolate (powerless) is a direct fit with Dan 12:7 "When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

Any attempt at fitting the holy people and their destruction with anything other than 1st century AD Israel/Jerusalem is a total denial of scripture and is playing hanky panky with it.



They put the wrong whor.e in
They take the right whor.e out
They do the hanky panky and
They shake it all about




 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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#2
Are you offended or afraid to use the word Whore without a period in it?
 

Larry_Stotle

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2014
504
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#3
Are you offended or afraid to use the word Whore without a period in it?
Sometimes a web browser will edit the word out and render it as w**** - I've not seen it happen on CC with Opera so maybe I could dispense with doing that.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,622
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#4
Why can't the holy people be the Jews during the Great Trib?
 

Larry_Stotle

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2014
504
8
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#5
Why can't the holy people be the Jews during the Great Trib?
Because the holy people are those that come to Christ and become part of the church aka his body - the "nation" of Israel after 70AD has no further relevance.

(1 Pet 2:9 KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

And to place the "great" tribulation past 70AD is ignore time statements such as "at hand", "shortly come to pass" etc.
 
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RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
784
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#6
Snippets and stitchwork. You're in for a rude awakening my friend. Best to be prepared than idle, bcause you think it's all over.
 

Larry_Stotle

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2014
504
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#7
Although this speaks to an earlier event by the Chaldean's this is another hint at the identity of the whor.e in revelation - burning with fire.

(Ezek 5:1 KJV) And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's razor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weigh, and divide the hair.

(Ezek 5:2 KJV) Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them.

(Ezek 5:3 KJV) Thou shalt also take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts.

(Ezek 5:4 KJV) Then take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire; for thereof shall a fire come forth into all the house of Israel.

(Rev 17:16 KJV) And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.


John certainly seems to make many allusions to Ezekiel which helps with identifying Israel as the whore:

Beasts/creatures:

(Ezek 1:5 KJV) Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.

(Rev 4:8 KJV) And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Sent to prophesy:

(Ezek 2:3 KJV) And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.

(Rev 10:11 KJV) And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Scroll written on both sides:

(Ezek 2:9 KJV) And when I looked, behold, an hand was sent unto me; and, lo, a roll of a book was therein;

(Ezek 2:10 KJV) And he spread it before me; and it was written within and without: and there was written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe.

(Rev 5:1 KJV) And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

Eat the scrolls:

(Ezek 3:3 KJV) And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.

(Rev 10:9 KJV) And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

Of course according to the futurist this does not apply to 1st century Israel but the Roman Catholic Church or some other organization they dream up and pin the tail on that donkey.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
46,146
20,067
113
#8
Sometimes a web browser will edit the word out and render it as w**** - I've not seen it happen on CC with Opera so maybe I could dispense with doing that.
Cool and thanks for the explanation.....mi amigo!
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
46,146
20,067
113
#9
Why can't the holy people be the Jews during the Great Trib?
Better yet...Why can't the holy people be the SAVED both JEWS AND GENTILES who are one under the banner of faith as both go through the great tribulation so as to purify both as both have grown very worldly!
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,622
2,532
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#10
Because the holy people are those that come to Christ and become part of the church aka his body - the "nation" of Israel after 70AD has no further relevance.

(1 Pet 2:9 KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

And to place the "great" tribulation past 70AD is ignore time statements such as "at hand", "shortly come to pass" etc.
Sure the remnant of Jews will come to Christ during the Tribulation. No wonder you post so many questions, you're standing on a faulty Roman foundation laid in 70 AD
 

Larry_Stotle

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2014
504
8
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#11
(Mat 24:21 KJV) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

(Mat 24:34 KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Ignoring time statements just leads to misunderstanding:

(Rom 13:12 KJV) The night is far spent, the day is at hand....

(Phil 4:5 KJV) .......The Lord is at hand.

(1 Pet 4:7 KJV) But the end of all things is at hand....

(Rev 1:3 KJV) Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
 
Dec 18, 2013
6,733
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#12
Aye the prophecy of the scattering of the House of Israel throughout the world came to pass in the 100 AD. And forget not the prophecy of regathering them back to the land never to be uprooted again came to pass in 1948 AD. Therefore watch for few prophecies remain until the great and awesome day of the coming of the Lord. Jesus returns very soon.
 
Dec 18, 2013
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#14
So where is this "prophecy" about 1948 Gisius?
Amos 9:8-15
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the Lord.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the Lord that doeth this.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,989
50
48
#15
Interestingly the futurists are at a loss to understand just who the holy people are in the Old Testament - some of them think it's the Roman Church.

They try and fit the "time, times, and an half" anywhere in history other than where it belongs - the 1st century AD.
Greetings Preterist Stotle,

Speaking of being at a loss, preterism leaves me at a loss as to how on earth anyone could believe such stuff. I found out recently that there are apparently lots of varieties of Preterism from the Preterist Archive, a very impressive internet site.

Now I will say for the theory that the tribulation is past, at least it allows one to believe in an imminent 2nd coming of Christ (unless you toss that out also, as AD 70), whereas post-tribism has a harder time with an imminent Rapture. BTW, do you think that Christ returned and split the Mt of Olives in half in AD 70?

Now as a futurist, who has hob-nobbed with futurists for years, I must say I never met one that had any problem with the "holy people," aka, Saints, in the OT. I never heard a futurist say that there was a RCC in the OT. Can you quote me one that says it? I know of no necessary connection between futurism and finding the RCC in the Bible somewhere. I don't find it in Rev 18-19 myself.


And can you quote me a futurist who says, "I am at a loss to understand who the OT Saints are."

Obviously it not all physical Israel, nor even the majority of physical Israel who are holy people. In Elijah's day there were 7000 who had not bowed to Baal.

Now what is your proof that the 3 1/2 times belong in the 1st Century AD?
 

Larry_Stotle

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2014
504
8
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#16
Greetings Preterist Stotle,

Speaking of being at a loss, preterism leaves me at a loss as to how on earth anyone could believe such stuff. I found out recently that there are apparently lots of varieties of Preterism from the Preterist Archive, a very impressive internet site.

Now I will say for the theory that the tribulation is past, at least it allows one to believe in an imminent 2nd coming of Christ (unless you toss that out also, as AD 70), whereas post-tribism has a harder time with an imminent Rapture. BTW, do you think that Christ returned and split the Mt of Olives in half in AD 70?

Now as a futurist, who has hob-nobbed with futurists for years, I must say I never met one that had any problem with the "holy people," aka, Saints, in the OT. I never heard a futurist say that there was a RCC in the OT. Can you quote me one that says it? I know of no necessary connection between futurism and finding the RCC in the Bible somewhere. I don't find it in Rev 18-19 myself.


And can you quote me a futurist who says, "I am at a loss to understand who the OT Saints are."

Obviously it not all physical Israel, nor even the majority of physical Israel who are holy people. In Elijah's day there were 7000 who had not bowed to Baal.

Now what is your proof that the 3 1/2 times belong in the 1st Century AD?
Greeting Futurist Atwood..

"I never heard a futurist say that there was a RCC in the OT"

Yes, I must admit the opening "line" was a little confusing - some futurists posit that the "holy people" of Daniel is not speaking to 1st century Israel as the whore of revelation but to the RC church - my apologies for not explaining that too well in the opening post.

"I must say I never met one that had any problem with the "holy people," aka, Saints, in the OT."

That's good, so when do you posit that this holy people's power as per Daniel was "scattered"?

"I know of no necessary connection between futurism and finding the RCC in the Bible somewhere. I don't find it in Rev 18-19 myself."

You may not - but many futurists of the protestant persuasion do, and if they don't they posit some form of united EU, the WCC or some reincarnation of literal Bablylon in Iraq or whatever takes their fancy.

I would be interested to know what you or your "hob-nobbed" futurists believe just who is the whore of Babylon.

Answering the rest would be jumping the gun until we sort out that whore.

Go at a ...:)
 

Larry_Stotle

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2014
504
8
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#17
Amos 9:8-15
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the Lord.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the Lord that doeth this.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.
(Amos 9:11 KJV) In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

Firstly I will state that this verse in the middle of the above is quoted by Peter:

(Acts 15:14 KJV) Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

(Acts 15:15 KJV) And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

(Acts 15:16 KJV) After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

This includes the heathen (gentiles)

(Amos 9:12 KJV) That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

So how would you conclude that Peter's reference to Amos was either not established in the 1st century or that it would take until 1948 to come to pass?
 
Dec 18, 2013
6,733
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#18
The last two verses of Amos prophecy was my reference to the return of Israel in 1948. I merely posted this much to even show you your goodly point about their scattering thereof fulfileld in 100AD onward until the regathering.

What I posted for you is a whole history from 100 AD to 1948 AD (and indeed beyond). Keep reading brother. Just because part of the prophecy is fulfilled doesn't mean there is not yet more to be done, and it shall be done. Watch therefore.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,622
2,532
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#19
Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."
(Luk 21:28)

Speaking to the Jews it's inconceivable Jesus meant this as a time to look up and redemption drawing near for them...70AD?
 

Larry_Stotle

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2014
504
8
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#20
(Luke 21:28 KJV) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

(Luke 21:29 KJV) And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

(Luke 21:30 KJV) When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

(Luke 21:31 KJV) So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

(Luke 21:32 KJV) Verily I say unto YOU, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

So were YOU there when Jesus said this or was he talking to the air or was he in fact speaking to those standing by him?

What's inconceivable is people invent other meanings than the plain text and ignore such statements as these in preference for their fawlty "theology".

(Luke 9:27 KJV) But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

(Mat 26:63 KJV) But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

(Mat 26:64 KJV) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto YOU, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Were YOU there, and was he addressing this to YOU or the high priest?

*shakes head*

Stick to Mary Poppins...you got a better chance of seeing her "coming in the clouds".