The cultic origins of Annihilationism

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shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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GAARRROOAN!! Sorry. It's an involuntary reflex for me to groan when I see people allegorozing Scripture!

Should we allegorize the plagues of Egypt? How about Samson killing 1000 Philistines with the jawbone of an ass? Jonah in a whales belly 3 days?

What about God becoming flesh, allowing Himself to be tortured, crucified, die, AND RAISED FROM THE DEAD?
Nope, there is no reason to allegorize those things.

See, when WE choose to allegorize Scripture, there is no end to it. We essentially make ourselves the arbiter of what is true and what is an allegory.
Which is true, Ed?

Eze 28:
16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Rev 20:
10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

You HAVE to say either one or the other is not literally true, or the Bible has a contradiction.

And even Paul says there are allegories in scripture (Gal 4:24).
 
Feb 21, 2012
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GAARRROOAN!! Sorry. It's an involuntary reflex for me to groan when I see people allegorozing Scripture!

Should we allegorize the plagues of Egypt? How about Samson killing 1000 Philistines with the jawbone of an ass? Jonah in a whales belly 3 days?

What about God becoming flesh, allowing Himself to be tortured, crucified, die, AND RAISED FROM THE DEAD?

See, when WE choose to allegorize Scripture, there is no end to it. We essentially make ourselves the arbiter of what is true and what is an allegory.
Are there not legitimate figures of speech used in language/literature? Why would it be so different for God when having holy men pen the word of God to not use figures of speech? There are over 200 figures of speech throughout the written word and when a figure is not discerned when used - we do not have truth, e.g. the rich man and Lazarus - either when one is dead they are dead (OT) or when one is dead he is not really dead - the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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Nope, there is no reason to allegorize those things.


Which is true, Ed?

Eze 28:
16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Rev 20:
10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

You HAVE to say either one or the other is not literally true, or the Bible has a contradiction.

And even Paul says there are allegories in scripture (Gal 4:24).
No way! To say one is actually true and one is actually not true is NOT the only option! If there is no reason to think it may be allegorical, then you must exhaust every other option before you insist it HAS to be allegorical.

Can one man come from three places? Which of the three places that Messiah was said to come from is literal and which of the three are allegorical? Isn't it a fact that NONE of them are allegorical and all three are/were literal? It will all happen exactly as the prophets have said.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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I do not believe the rich man - Lazarus account is a parable, although I recognize that it is possible, especially since Matthew records that after the Pharisees said Jesus did works by Satan's power, He would only speak to them in parables.

But the overarching question is what does it matter if it is a parable or not? He is STILL laying the principle down that there will be conscious existence after physical death.
Not even remotely sure how that can be spun any other way.
What does it matter? It matters to have truth . . . . Again - the OT is replete with scripture concerning death - NT has man asleep (metaphorically used for death; yes, another figure of speech!) until Christ returns . . . . no in between - dead in the grave - raised to eternal life when Christ returns.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Nope, there is no reason to allegorize those things.


Which is true, Ed?

Eze 28:
16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Rev 20:
10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

You HAVE to say either one or the other is not literally true, or the Bible has a contradiction.

And even Paul says there are allegories in scripture (Gal 4:24).
They are both true. I see no issue or inconsistency at all between the 2. They will not exist on Earth or in Heaven. I believe even the memory of the lost we will not retain.

It would be hard to live in Heaven knowing that your loved ones who never came to the Lord were either annihilated OR forever suffering. Their existence will be blotted out of OUR memory. That doesn't mean THEY won't have memory of rejecting Jesus, and the sins they committed.

But the question remains. Why do YOU get to choose what is allegorical and what is literal? Who gave YOU that authority?
 
Nov 12, 2015
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If you cannot yet fit two verses together, it does not necessarily mean one has to be not literal. There is this option: there is something we are missing or not understanding.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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No way! To say one is actually true and one is actually not true is NOT the only option! If there is no reason to think it may be allegorical, then you must exhaust every other option before you insist it HAS to be allegorical.
Either the devil "never shall be any more" or he will be "tormented day and night for ever and ever". Both cannot be literally true.

Can one man come from three places? Which of the three places that Messiah was said to come from is literal and which of the three are allegorical? Isn't it a fact that NONE of them are allegorical and all three are/were literal? It will all happen exactly as the prophets have said.
Details needed....

What are the three places Jesus is said to have come from?
 
Nov 12, 2015
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The never shalt thou be anymore portion of the verse could be farther future than the rest of the verse, shrume.
We do have a precedent for this in the famous Isaiah verse that Jesus stood and read, don't we?
 
Nov 12, 2015
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Either the devil "never shall be any more" or he will be "tormented day and night for ever and ever". Both cannot be literally true.


Details needed....

What are the three places Jesus is said to have come from?
It was said in scripture that He would be from or come from Egypt, Nazareth and Bethlehem. And so they fought over which of those places He would come from. One man even said: no prophet comes from Nazareth, read the scriptures for yourself!! But it happened exactly as the prophets said!
 
Nov 12, 2015
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Every time someone gets hopped up and spitting, saying, you just refuse to believe scriptures!! - I get a chuckle because I see them in my mind wearing robes and a turban and saying: no prophet comes from Nazareth, read the scriptures for yourself and see!! :LOL:
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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They are both true.
That is impossible. Two contradictory things cannot both be true.

I see no issue or inconsistency at all between the 2. They will not exist on Earth or in Heaven.
The example I gave is specifically about the devil. Where does Ezekiel 28 say that the devil will not exist only "on earth or in Heaven"? You are inserting things into the scripture to "make" both of them true.

I believe even the memory of the lost we will not retain.
Could be... The Bible does say that every tear will be wiped away. It does not say exactly how that will be accomplished.

It would be hard to live in Heaven knowing that your loved ones who never came to the Lord were either annihilated OR forever suffering. Their existence will be blotted out of OUR memory. That doesn't mean THEY won't have memory of rejecting Jesus, and the sins they committed.
Again, you are suggesting things that are not in the Bible. It is conjecture.

But the question remains. Why do YOU get to choose what is allegorical and what is literal? Who gave YOU that authority?
I do not get to choose.

There are MANY scriptures that explain death, and what it means. When there are a couple of scriptures that appear to contradict what the many verses plainly state, the "difficult" verses must be understood in light of the truth stated in the clear verses.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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It was said in scripture that He would be from or come from Egypt, Nazareth and Bethlehem. And so they fought over which of those places He would come from. One man even said: no prophet comes from Nazareth, read the scriptures for yourself!! But it happened exactly as the prophets said!
Those three things are all true. They are not contradictory.

But the dead cannot be both dead and not dead.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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That is impossible. Two contradictory things cannot both be true.
The never shalt thou be anymore portion of the verse could be farther future than the rest of the verse, shrume.
We do have a precedent for this in the famous Isaiah verse that Jesus stood and read, don't we?
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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The never shalt thou be anymore portion of the verse could be farther future than the rest of the verse, shrume.
OK.. But at some point, "never shall he be any more". The devil will eventually be destroyed.

We do have a precedent for this in the famous Isaiah verse that Jesus stood and read, don't we?
At some point ALL of Isa 61:1-2 will be fulfilled.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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Those three things are all true. They are not contradictory
Yes, they never WERE contradictory.
And yet they appeared to be contradictory to men and there were arguments over which of the three was true of the Messiah. We are privy to one of those arguments because a man said: No prophet comes from Nazareth, read the scriptures!!
 
Nov 12, 2015
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OK.. But at some point, "never shall he be any more". The devil will eventually be destroyed.
At least you have begun to see that prophecy does not have to be strictly linear with no gaps in between! It is a very hard thing to keep in your mind as you are reading and building. I even have it posted on postIt notes in a few places - bathroom mirror, bulletin board, on the table - because I don't want to build without it yet keep forgetting it!
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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you know Ahwatukee, I wonder why those do not see the context of the Breath of God to make man living being as in Gen 1:26 and 2:7 which says God breathed into his nostril the breath of life and man became living soul. This is the state of man before sin was in him. NO death then after the fall cain kills his brother and in ten 4:10 "the voice of thy brothers blood cries unto me from the ground".

the breath of life is given to everyone to become a living being which even unsaved people has now. The Born again experience is life free from sin and now the flesh will die but we have hope of life eternal or with God forever as it was to be from the beginning . This is why annihilationism make no since . we see added man speaking to God from the ground as we heard Jesus speak about in Luke concerning the "certain Rich man" who also spoke in the state of death.

I think its a parable. Without parables,(comparing the things of men seen, the temporal, to the things of God, not seen, the eternal )
Without giving us the spiritual understanding Christ spoke not to the multitude (everyone) hiding the spiritual meaning from those who have no faith (natural man)

People buried in ground don't thirst for water , the have no bladder to store it in order to keep the body hydrated .

Hell is a living work of suffering as shown with Jonas and Christ .


I think the word soul is used differently than you offered. God breathed spirit life different from a soul. Making the soul and spirit all one thing can cause confusion. Adam was created with a living soul but when he sinned the soul as that which communes by walking in agreement with another died instantly, unlike the temporal spirit which became 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90)

Natural man is identified as having no faith no way to commune with God not seen .

This faith issue is something that many leave out not understanding how the word is used can lead a person down another path other than the path that id lide by the word of God as a lamp unto our feet .No faith no light

Deuteronomy 32:20And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith

A soul is needed to walk together. Like Christians, soul brothers and sisters seeing we share the same born-again soul by which we can agree with God.No soul no agreement .

Hear this word that the Lord hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying,You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.Can two walk together, except they be agreed?Amos 3:1-3

There is a clear division between the temporal spirit the essence of breath of this temporal life and a soul by which we can walk with God.God working in us to both will and do Hs good pleasure .
Natural man as a restless wanderer is born without a soul in that way(hard heart) and must be born again in order to enter fellowship as in the garden, guarded with flaming swords. The fiery judgment of His word

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Heb 4:12

While the spirit speaks of the breath of man the soul speaks of the communication of man working with together with another . Like for instance God is revealed of having one mind and always does what His soul pleases even that he which he does as work of His faith. He creates as a labor of love a soft heart in man.

Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:Job 23:12-16

When man sinned His spirit was corrupted and he died a slow death according to the Psalms today 70 or so years .But when the corruption began the possibility of communing with God as walking in agreement with Him was dead with no way for God to work in mans heart.(no faith) It remained hard with no way for God to work to soften it and therefore no way to enter God's eternal Sabbath rest.

Natural man like Cain became marked as a restless wanderer . not receiving rest because he had no way to agree with God not seen.
Faith was needed but Cain could not mix faith in what he heard or saw seeing God could not confirm. Again having no faith there was no way to mix faith and believe God not seen hearts remain hard.

No soul no rest. No faith by which we can believe God who works in us with us to soften our hearts, hearts remain hard

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being "mixed with faith" in them that heard it.For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.Hebrews 4:1-9
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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That is impossible. Two contradictory things cannot both be true.


The example I gave is specifically about the devil. Where does Ezekiel 28 say that the devil will not exist only "on earth or in Heaven"? You are inserting things into the scripture to "make" both of them true.


Could be... The Bible does say that every tear will be wiped away. It does not say exactly how that will be accomplished.


Again, you are suggesting things that are not in the Bible. It is conjecture.


I do not get to choose.

There are MANY scriptures that explain death, and what it means. When there are a couple of scriptures that appear to contradict what the many verses plainly state, the "difficult" verses must be understood in light of the truth stated in the clear verses.
Nope. Not assuming anything. No conjecture.

Isaiah 65:17 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Glorious New Creation
17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall NOT be remembered or [a]come to mind.


The lost will NOT be remembered.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 New King James Version (NKJV)
5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the MEMORY of them is FORGOTTEN.

Revelation 21:4 New King James Version (NKJV)
4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the FORMER THINGS HAVE PASSED AWAY

Pretty clear to me that we aren't going to remember the unsaved..”
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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Understanding of earthly death cannot be applied to spiritual death.

Eternal salvation is forever.
Eternal damnation is forever.
Eternal....means there is no end.