The curse of the law
- Thread starter InSpiritInTruth
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
It means that Paul was right when he said that the law is Spiritual. Paul understood this when he used the phrase "sold under sin." This one verse shows a Spiritual contrast in principle. A slave hasn't a choice according to the law.
"For we know that the law is spiritual,.... but I am carnal, sold under sin." Spiritual understanding of the law, leads us into the true nature of it by the Spirit of God, knowing by experience that it is "spiritual"; and therefore can never be the cause of sin or death. The law may be said to be "spiritual" because it comes from the Spirit of God and reaches to the spirit of man. It requires truth in the inward parts; spiritual service and spiritual obedience; a serving of it with our minds; a worshiping of God in spirit and truth; a loving of him with all our hearts and souls.
Many are of opinion, that the apostle speaks in the person of an unregenerate man, or of himself as unregenerate; but nothing is more clear, than that he speaks all along of himself in the first person, "I am carnal" having a sinful nature. We all do.
"Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin." Romans 7:25
Here we see a law from God that is Spiritual, and a law from man that is carnal. They are not the same law. An example of Spiritual significance would be the Spiritual meaning of "leaven." That term is used in both Old and New Testaments. Jesus' crucifixion can also be Spiritually related to the Nazerite vow because He didn't drink at the beginning, but He did at the end when He said "it is finished." This is related very closely to "leaven" because "leaven" is a fermenting agent. "Unleavened" represents haste.
I wrote a summary of the spiritual significance of law of leprosy if you would care to see it. Leviticus 14.
"For we know that the law is spiritual,.... but I am carnal, sold under sin." Spiritual understanding of the law, leads us into the true nature of it by the Spirit of God, knowing by experience that it is "spiritual"; and therefore can never be the cause of sin or death. The law may be said to be "spiritual" because it comes from the Spirit of God and reaches to the spirit of man. It requires truth in the inward parts; spiritual service and spiritual obedience; a serving of it with our minds; a worshiping of God in spirit and truth; a loving of him with all our hearts and souls.
Many are of opinion, that the apostle speaks in the person of an unregenerate man, or of himself as unregenerate; but nothing is more clear, than that he speaks all along of himself in the first person, "I am carnal" having a sinful nature. We all do.
"Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin." Romans 7:25
Here we see a law from God that is Spiritual, and a law from man that is carnal. They are not the same law. An example of Spiritual significance would be the Spiritual meaning of "leaven." That term is used in both Old and New Testaments. Jesus' crucifixion can also be Spiritually related to the Nazerite vow because He didn't drink at the beginning, but He did at the end when He said "it is finished." This is related very closely to "leaven" because "leaven" is a fermenting agent. "Unleavened" represents haste.
I wrote a summary of the spiritual significance of law of leprosy if you would care to see it. Leviticus 14.
To keep the law isn't natural for us but thank God for His Spirit.
With God we can live in the Spirit.
There are two laws working in each one of us. They are given many names like, higher and lower natures, the Spirit and the flesh, body etc...
Eze_36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Mat_26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
Joh_3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom_8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Gal_5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal_5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
We are slaves to sin in the flesh, we can't obey the law or free ourselves from the lusts of the flesh. With the flesh and body death is the only outcome. But the law is spiritual and with the words that Jesus speak unto us, they are spirit, and they are life. If we are born of the Spirit and "Walk in the Spirit," (ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh). Then the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The flesh will always be a slave to the selfish, sinful ways, but Jesus wants to live within us and give us His Spirit, and we can only serve one master. (The problem is we change masters), When The Spirit is working in us we obey the Law and when we serve our own desires (Flesh not crucified) we can't obey the Spiritual Law.
Jos_24:15 ..... choose you this day whom ye will serve; ..... but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
With God we can live in the Spirit.
There are two laws working in each one of us. They are given many names like, higher and lower natures, the Spirit and the flesh, body etc...
Eze_36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Mat_26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
Joh_3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom_8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Gal_5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal_5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
We are slaves to sin in the flesh, we can't obey the law or free ourselves from the lusts of the flesh. With the flesh and body death is the only outcome. But the law is spiritual and with the words that Jesus speak unto us, they are spirit, and they are life. If we are born of the Spirit and "Walk in the Spirit," (ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh). Then the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The flesh will always be a slave to the selfish, sinful ways, but Jesus wants to live within us and give us His Spirit, and we can only serve one master. (The problem is we change masters), When The Spirit is working in us we obey the Law and when we serve our own desires (Flesh not crucified) we can't obey the Spiritual Law.
Jos_24:15 ..... choose you this day whom ye will serve; ..... but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
To keep the law isn't natural for us but thank God for His Spirit.
With God we can live in the Spirit.
There are two laws working in each one of us. They are given many names like, higher and lower natures, the Spirit and the flesh, body etc...
Eze_36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Mat_26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
Joh_3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom_8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Gal_5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal_5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
We have a choice Who will we serve?
We are slaves to sin in the flesh, we can't obey the law or free ourselves from the lusts of the flesh. With the flesh and body death is the only outcome. But the law is spiritual and with the words that Jesus speak unto us, they are spirit, and they are life. If we are born of the Spirit and "Walk in the Spirit," (ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh). Then the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The flesh will always be a slave to the selfish, sinful ways, but Jesus wants to live within us and give us His Spirit, and we can only serve one master. (The problem is we change masters), When The Spirit is working in us we obey the Law and when we serve our own desires (Flesh not crucified) we can't obey the Spiritual Law.
Jos_24:15 ..... choose you this day whom ye will serve; ..... but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
With God we can live in the Spirit.
There are two laws working in each one of us. They are given many names like, higher and lower natures, the Spirit and the flesh, body etc...
Eze_36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Mat_26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
Joh_3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom_8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Gal_5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal_5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
We have a choice Who will we serve?
We are slaves to sin in the flesh, we can't obey the law or free ourselves from the lusts of the flesh. With the flesh and body death is the only outcome. But the law is spiritual and with the words that Jesus speak unto us, they are spirit, and they are life. If we are born of the Spirit and "Walk in the Spirit," (ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh). Then the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The flesh will always be a slave to the selfish, sinful ways, but Jesus wants to live within us and give us His Spirit, and we can only serve one master. (The problem is we change masters), When The Spirit is working in us we obey the Law and when we serve our own desires (Flesh not crucified) we can't obey the Spiritual Law.
Jos_24:15 ..... choose you this day whom ye will serve; ..... but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Glad to hear that. . .because Calvin didnt' write the NT. 
And neither am I, Scripture is my authority.
I understand what you are saying.
I also understand the Scriptures to show that the Holy Spirit within all the the born again disposes/inclines the sons of God away from "regardless of what I do from there!" And for his sons who do not obey, God brings them back into obedience through a heart-purifiying discipline which transforms their hearts to him, so that by the power of God they are kept in sonship.
But doesn't Jn 1:8-10 disagree with that?
But doesn't the NT show that God will discipline his sheep in a way that keeps them from returning to sin's slavery over them, in a heart-purifying process that causes them to come back into obedience?
But is Jesus our representative, or are we one with him in the two-in-one-enfleshment of the marital union of Christ and his wife/bride, the church (Eph 5:29-32)?
I see Scripture teaching that the born again son of God, in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union of Christ and his church, does not and cannot willfully deny the Christ with whom he is one, because it is so contrary to his transformed heart.
I also see Scripture teaching that God will, in a heart-purifying process, discipline those sons whose hearts are in need of it to bring them back into obedience.
For God is looser to no man, including his disobedient son.
God looses none of his own (Jn 10:28-29).
I do not think you are not allowing for counterfeit faith which has no root (Lk 8:13) of rebirth, or false profession of faith (1Jn 2:19) which is not sonship. These are the ones that return to the slavery of sin.
The sons of God do not.
I see the NT as teaching that grace is the power which keeps us in sonship, that God looses none of his own.
Sure wish you could see it too.
And neither am I, Scripture is my authority.
I understand what you are saying.
I also understand the Scriptures to show that the Holy Spirit within all the the born again disposes/inclines the sons of God away from "regardless of what I do from there!" And for his sons who do not obey, God brings them back into obedience through a heart-purifiying discipline which transforms their hearts to him, so that by the power of God they are kept in sonship.
But doesn't Jn 1:8-10 disagree with that?
But doesn't the NT show that God will discipline his sheep in a way that keeps them from returning to sin's slavery over them, in a heart-purifying process that causes them to come back into obedience?
But is Jesus our representative, or are we one with him in the two-in-one-enfleshment of the marital union of Christ and his wife/bride, the church (Eph 5:29-32)?
I see Scripture teaching that the born again son of God, in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union of Christ and his church, does not and cannot willfully deny the Christ with whom he is one, because it is so contrary to his transformed heart.
I also see Scripture teaching that God will, in a heart-purifying process, discipline those sons whose hearts are in need of it to bring them back into obedience.
For God is looser to no man, including his disobedient son.
God looses none of his own (Jn 10:28-29).
I do not think you are not allowing for counterfeit faith which has no root (Lk 8:13) of rebirth, or false profession of faith (1Jn 2:19) which is not sonship. These are the ones that return to the slavery of sin.
The sons of God do not.
I see the NT as teaching that grace is the power which keeps us in sonship, that God looses none of his own.
Sure wish you could see it too.
To get an F now would mean I have to go after the F. It won't trickle upon me accidentally, or be measured unto my inadequacies, because nothing in victory is of anything I do anyway.... Yet ,If I was unable to obtain an F regardless of my desire to obtain it we would be back to robotic Christianity. The bible talks about running the race to win it. Why run a race to win it if you don't have a need to win anything? You see I absolutely 100% agree on the complete unabated victory in Christ, a victory that no one can move you from, even the Devil himself. I also agree 100% that God goes to keep you there, and avails every opportunity under His almighty power, even achieving every battle of life for you in that walk in Christ, in fact, this is the only way to this victory--to accept Him doing this for us.
Hence, it is nothing we do to earn or deserve praise for it, I am literally dead to self. So it is not easy to lose victory once attained, in fact impossible IF we but stay put;...maintain! But this is the terms used in that passage... "run the race to win it". What is there to .."run for"... or even... "discipline for"... if the ticket can't be unpunched? God would state things in Scripture as a suggestion of His will not a warning.
We fight from victory, which gives us peace and power.And our mission is to simply maintain our guaranteed position, and this not even of ourselves, but in the work He does in us, and for us. Yet the term maintain still applies. Like I said before as well, if I sin, being found in this victory He has given freely, yet by His own sacrifice, God's grace is there to forgive if I but confess and move TOWARD the finished work of His calling in me. But He has a direction, that direction and finished work is seen in the fruit. In the fulfillment of the Laws of God, found in Christ"s doings ,not thru anything we can or have done, for we are free from the curse of the Law now, but as we live in Christ.. It is to go into Him not away. So as He corrects and forgives graciously, thru the Holy Spirit living in us merged into who we are, literally making us a New Creation , the "Him/us" new me... abolishing the rule , or curse of the Law, we still have this issue of the heart to contend with.
Look at your scriptures as you read and circle every IF you see in it, it will amaze you as you see the meaning that transpires.. We have a will. and always will as we head into our forever prize. Now that forever prize starts now, here, guaranteed, but we have the chapters of our lives yet to play out in obedience, the warfare of the Spirits. God has given perfect victory, and if you have asked God into your heart and believe, you have Heaven now guaranteed, perfect victory on earth still applies our will attached to the Spirit to stay victorious on this earth, .... we still have a choice, a choice that will be available until our physical bodily departure from this earth.
One sin doesn't throw away God's grace, for we are not under law any longer.... but when God brings up that unconfessed sin, and we return with that transgression or sin with a willful defiance and repeated rebellion, over and over as He continues to lay conviction on your heart for repentance and confession, and we say no to Him.... we can lose that solid unmovable victory by our will to leave. For God's righteousness can't have a willful sinner in the Kingdom of Heaven, otherwise He could have solved our problem another way other than sacrifice His perfect son. Does this make sense to you?
I want you to hear two things...one, I absolutely agree Christ is a solid foundation that has no opponents blocking us from complete victory...we are free, yes free indeed! So understand I stand with you holding that banner as well. But we are never to be robotic Christians, and in that principle, even when it is actually difficult to leave God once in, it is not impossible, Satan always has a pay-off if we do not Stay in and maintain our victory, thru Christ's accomplishments not by doing anything,ourselves, but by sitting only in things already accomplished in Christ. And obeying Him to the finish line, an obedience that He Himself has laid out to be successful in...For No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful, He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide a way out so you can stand up under it. To say otherwise is not biblical or correct and I must by the Spirit in me say so. God bless, I hope this encourages only.
The issue here I see you not discerning is the continued will. Our will....it still has a voice. Otherwise preach it sista God has your back...
Ok, this is where it jumps track. . .with
pathetically inadequate human notions, darkening the counsel of God in words without Biblical knowledge:
a totally human hypothetical (a son of God, born of his imperishable seed, would desire an F. . .YIKES!) and
a totally human concept (robot Christianity) that negates the teaching of Scripture which show that
God does not lose his own (Jn 10:28-29), for God is loser to no man (Da 4:35). . .YIKES!
where is this desire for an F going to come from in those whose hearts have been
we would be back to robotic Christianity. The bible talks about running the race to win it. Why run a race to win it if you don't have a need to win anything? You see I absolutely 100% agree on the complete unabated victory in Christ, a victory that no one can move you from, even the Devil himself. I also agree 100% that God goes to keep you there, and avails every opportunity under His almighty power, even achieving every battle of life for you in that walk in Christ, in fact, this is the only way to this victory--to accept Him doing this for us.
Hence, it is nothing we do to earn or deserve praise for it, I am literally dead to self. So it is not easy to lose victory once attained, in fact impossible IF we but stay put;...maintain! But this is the terms used in that passage... "run the race to win it". What is there to .."run for"... or even... "discipline for"... if the ticket can't be unpunched? God would state things in Scripture as a suggestion of His will not a warning.
We fight from victory, which gives us peace and power.And our mission is to simply maintain our guaranteed position, and this not even of ourselves, but in the work He does in us, and for us. Yet the term maintain still applies. Like I said before as well, if I sin, being found in this victory He has given freely, yet by His own sacrifice, God's grace is there to forgive if I but confess and move TOWARD the finished work of His calling in me. But He has a direction, that direction and finished work is seen in the fruit. In the fulfillment of the Laws of God, found in Christ"s doings ,not thru anything we can or have done, for we are free from the curse of the Law now, but as we live in Christ.. It is to go into Him not away. So as He corrects and forgives graciously, thru the Holy Spirit living in us merged into who we are, literally making us a New Creation , the "Him/us" new me... abolishing the rule , or curse of the Law, we still have this issue of the heart to contend with.
Look at your scriptures as you read and circle every IF you see in it, it will amaze you as you see the meaning that transpires.. We have a will. and always will as we head into our forever prize. Now that forever prize starts now, here, guaranteed, but we have the chapters of our lives yet to play out in obedience, the warfare of the Spirits. God has given perfect victory, and if you have asked God into your heart and believe, you have Heaven now guaranteed, perfect victory on earth still applies our will attached to the Spirit to stay victorious on this earth, .... we still have a choice, a choice that will be available until our physical bodily departure from this earth.
One sin doesn't throw away God's grace, for we are not under law any longer.... but when God brings up that unconfessed sin, and we return with that transgression or sin with a willful defiance and repeated rebellion, over and over as He continues to lay conviction on your heart for repentance and confession, and we say no to Him.... we can lose that solid unmovable victory by our will to leave. For God's righteousness can't have a willful sinner in the Kingdom of Heaven, otherwise He could have solved our problem another way other than sacrifice His perfect son. Does this make sense to you?
I want you to hear two things...one, I absolutely agree Christ is a solid foundation that has no opponents blocking us from complete victory...we are free, yes free indeed! So understand I stand with you holding that banner as well. But we are never to be robotic Christians, and in that principle, even when it is actually difficult to leave God once in, it is not impossible, Satan always has a pay-off if we do not Stay in and maintain our victory, thru Christ's accomplishments not by doing anything,ourselves, but by sitting only in things already accomplished in Christ. And obeying Him to the finish line, an obedience that He Himself has laid out to be successful in...For No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful, He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide a way out so you can stand up under it. To say otherwise is not biblical or correct and I must by the Spirit in me say so. God bless, I hope this encourages only.
The issue here I see you not discerning is the continued will. Our will....it still has a voice. Otherwise preach it sista God has your back...[/QUOTE]
pathetically inadequate human notions, darkening the counsel of God in words without Biblical knowledge:
a totally human hypothetical (a son of God, born of his imperishable seed, would desire an F. . .YIKES!) and
a totally human concept (robot Christianity) that negates the teaching of Scripture which show that
God does not lose his own (Jn 10:28-29), for God is loser to no man (Da 4:35). . .YIKES!
where is this desire for an F going to come from in those whose hearts have been
we would be back to robotic Christianity. The bible talks about running the race to win it. Why run a race to win it if you don't have a need to win anything? You see I absolutely 100% agree on the complete unabated victory in Christ, a victory that no one can move you from, even the Devil himself. I also agree 100% that God goes to keep you there, and avails every opportunity under His almighty power, even achieving every battle of life for you in that walk in Christ, in fact, this is the only way to this victory--to accept Him doing this for us.
Hence, it is nothing we do to earn or deserve praise for it, I am literally dead to self. So it is not easy to lose victory once attained, in fact impossible IF we but stay put;...maintain! But this is the terms used in that passage... "run the race to win it". What is there to .."run for"... or even... "discipline for"... if the ticket can't be unpunched? God would state things in Scripture as a suggestion of His will not a warning.
We fight from victory, which gives us peace and power.And our mission is to simply maintain our guaranteed position, and this not even of ourselves, but in the work He does in us, and for us. Yet the term maintain still applies. Like I said before as well, if I sin, being found in this victory He has given freely, yet by His own sacrifice, God's grace is there to forgive if I but confess and move TOWARD the finished work of His calling in me. But He has a direction, that direction and finished work is seen in the fruit. In the fulfillment of the Laws of God, found in Christ"s doings ,not thru anything we can or have done, for we are free from the curse of the Law now, but as we live in Christ.. It is to go into Him not away. So as He corrects and forgives graciously, thru the Holy Spirit living in us merged into who we are, literally making us a New Creation , the "Him/us" new me... abolishing the rule , or curse of the Law, we still have this issue of the heart to contend with.
Look at your scriptures as you read and circle every IF you see in it, it will amaze you as you see the meaning that transpires.. We have a will. and always will as we head into our forever prize. Now that forever prize starts now, here, guaranteed, but we have the chapters of our lives yet to play out in obedience, the warfare of the Spirits. God has given perfect victory, and if you have asked God into your heart and believe, you have Heaven now guaranteed, perfect victory on earth still applies our will attached to the Spirit to stay victorious on this earth, .... we still have a choice, a choice that will be available until our physical bodily departure from this earth.
One sin doesn't throw away God's grace, for we are not under law any longer.... but when God brings up that unconfessed sin, and we return with that transgression or sin with a willful defiance and repeated rebellion, over and over as He continues to lay conviction on your heart for repentance and confession, and we say no to Him.... we can lose that solid unmovable victory by our will to leave. For God's righteousness can't have a willful sinner in the Kingdom of Heaven, otherwise He could have solved our problem another way other than sacrifice His perfect son. Does this make sense to you?
I want you to hear two things...one, I absolutely agree Christ is a solid foundation that has no opponents blocking us from complete victory...we are free, yes free indeed! So understand I stand with you holding that banner as well. But we are never to be robotic Christians, and in that principle, even when it is actually difficult to leave God once in, it is not impossible, Satan always has a pay-off if we do not Stay in and maintain our victory, thru Christ's accomplishments not by doing anything,ourselves, but by sitting only in things already accomplished in Christ. And obeying Him to the finish line, an obedience that He Himself has laid out to be successful in...For No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful, He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide a way out so you can stand up under it. To say otherwise is not biblical or correct and I must by the Spirit in me say so. God bless, I hope this encourages only.
The issue here I see you not discerning is the continued will. Our will....it still has a voice. Otherwise preach it sista God has your back...[/QUOTE]
Ok, this is where it jumps track. . .with
pathetically inadequate human notions, darkening the counsel of God in words without Biblical knowledge:
a totally human hypothetical (a son of God, born of his imperishable seed, would desire an F. . .YIKES!) and
a totally human concept (robot Christianity) that negates the teaching of Scripture which shows that
God does not lose his own (Jn 10:28-29), for God is loser to no man (Da 4:35). . .YIKES!
Yes, but the Scriptures regarding it show it is not a race for salvation.
OK. . .what you are not discerning here is seen in 1Co 3:10-15 and 1Co 9:15-24, where
1Co 3:10-15 - there is reward (a crown, Rev 4:10) in addition to salvation for the believer,
which reward can be lost, but salvation is not lost (v. 15).
1Co 9:15-24 - Paul is speaking of a special reward (vv. 15-18), a prize (v.24) which he was running to obtain.
The prize is not salvation (just as the reward of 1Co 3:15 is not salvation),
both are in addition to salvation. . .a crown of glory (Rev 4:10) for good work (1Co 3:14).
[/QUOTE]
I don't think you are discerning that or will does not operate in a vacuum, it is governed by our disposition.
A dog is disposed against sour food--vinegar, etc.
It will never choose to eat such because of its disposition which governs its will.
Unregenerate man has a corresponding disposition which governs his choices.
The born again of God (Jn 1:13) have a corresponding disposition whcih governs their choices.
If a son of God is overtaken by weakness of his flesh, God will discipline him in a heart-purifying process
which cleanses his disposition.
pathetically inadequate human notions, darkening the counsel of God in words without Biblical knowledge:
a totally human hypothetical (a son of God, born of his imperishable seed, would desire an F. . .YIKES!) and
a totally human concept (robot Christianity) that negates the teaching of Scripture which shows that
God does not lose his own (Jn 10:28-29), for God is loser to no man (Da 4:35). . .YIKES!
Yes, but the Scriptures regarding it show it is not a race for salvation.
OK. . .what you are not discerning here is seen in 1Co 3:10-15 and 1Co 9:15-24, where
1Co 3:10-15 - there is reward (a crown, Rev 4:10) in addition to salvation for the believer,
which reward can be lost, but salvation is not lost (v. 15).
1Co 9:15-24 - Paul is speaking of a special reward (vv. 15-18), a prize (v.24) which he was running to obtain.
The prize is not salvation (just as the reward of 1Co 3:15 is not salvation),
both are in addition to salvation. . .a crown of glory (Rev 4:10) for good work (1Co 3:14).
[/QUOTE]
I don't think you are discerning that or will does not operate in a vacuum, it is governed by our disposition.
A dog is disposed against sour food--vinegar, etc.
It will never choose to eat such because of its disposition which governs its will.
Unregenerate man has a corresponding disposition which governs his choices.
The born again of God (Jn 1:13) have a corresponding disposition whcih governs their choices.
If a son of God is overtaken by weakness of his flesh, God will discipline him in a heart-purifying process
which cleanses his disposition.
Last edited:
I don't know what a will in a vacuum means. I also mentioned the "yikes" was in the conclusion of the original statement made of the hypothetical way to live that I stated from what you had suggested earlier, never a personal comment toward you at all.. I used the robot and F as an illustration to help explain the scripture and principles, and Jesus used current relevant stories of the day to do that often, they called them parables. I am unclear of what scripture you are suggesting when you write Co. Is that Corinthians? or Colossians?.
God does speak of accrediting People of God with things in heaven, He says he keeps records of them stored for you. He mentions the bad stuff hidden too, but I like to just talk about the credits, for paul talks many times about this ..He sees his prize not of this earths reward but in the eternal values God has placed in his heart. Transferring from human understanding to a Godly understanding of things. The last will be first and the first last [kind of thing] in adjusting importance of service over receiving.. Martyrs of Christ, God says, "No man hath greater love than to lay down his life for another." He merits the things we do as well.
But Paul is talking about running the race of Salvation. Not for Salvation. Big difference. The race is simply the living it out with victory. One foot in front of the other until we either pass to the next reality or He comes back.
But 1 Timothy 1:18-19; and Hebrews 3: 12-13.; along with Mark 14-19. suggest warnings that would behoove us to listen to. I, again, believe in the victory unmovable position, but when you talk of the will as controlled, or the disposition being governed, you are talking not about the Spirits influence, but of robotic type control. This is my description attempting to understand your position, not a human enigma attachment. based on that example...smile. I first don't believe ; Evil can overtake anyone found in Christ, i if they don't so chose.. In the old-self yes, we sere a slave to it. But, I also don't believe God will hoist us up with a crane and make us perform His will. in this term the heart-purifying process. That is simply forgiveness from grace, applied as we confess willingly.
Have you ever been spoon fed scripture? I didn't say have you ever read things you would rather not read, having to be corrected, but I said spoon fed?.. I haven't....ever! and I have screwed up many times. Have you ever been transformed after willingly reading it?... All the time for me! That only comes from a love developed from an independent will, plugged into the power generator of God's complete victory found for us in Christ and His blood.
God says pick up your cross and follow me daily. If He operates the cross onto you daily why do you need to pick it up? Now He does say the battle of your day is His..but, why the need for you picking up the cross daily? If he heart- purify processes us? Because free will is forever, that's why!.
You are correct in saying that when we were in sinful nature we were controlled by it-- a slave to it, God says. And Romans tells of a man after God still controlled by it. But He says we are a slave to righteousness now, right?!! Correct! Yet, without the will to decide that position we have not love. Satan doesn't want a love relationship with you. He just want's you to not have one with your maker. Anyway, Ok, let me spill the scripture on the text ..
1 Timothy 1:18-19: "This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith..."
Hebrews 3:12-13.: "Take care, brother's, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, lending you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another, everyday, as long as it is called "today", that none of you may be hardened by deceitfulness of sin."
And Mark 4:14-19; in it we see different levels of Christians heart and levels of planted roots, He says to one, Satan comes and takes away the word. In another; He says, in essence, The first guy hasn't stopped debating Satan yet, So he is involved in the debate and guess who is the master liar in that room?!! So they fall being influenced by the thief in the night ...The next illustration the Christian doesn't have any roots.., people that are all over the moment of the saved environment but do nothing to deepen it. Faith without works is dead. No word, No Prayer, no changing habits. Like the man who looked into the mirror and walked off and forgot what he looked like. Other's used the Word and prayer etc, yet where looking at the tyranny of the urgent and not God, the stresses of the World, and pleasures of temptation of Satan crippled them, leaving them unfruitful. Then there's the real Christian they hear the Word and [underline this] ACCEPT it, hence producing a crop. thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown...proof of Christ being the doer of the fruit.
Yet, the will of man is the faithfulness God requires in that formula. Willingness to say yes to His free offer. Willingness to invest in His, means to an end, in the Word and prayer and obedience. And a willingness to look at Him diligently and not unabashed by Satan or our feelings or pleasures or circumstances....our will is not driven by Him for if it were there would be only one parable story there...right?!!
There is the Law of Satans control over us in our old self....Yes!... The Law that Gods spirit controls Satans Spirit's control over us, now..yes! and The Law that We are free from the punishment of Sins rule being found in that Spirit of Life found in being in Christ...Yes! Yet, again, Our will is not dominated by God for loves sake. He influences thru the holy Spirit....yes! He battles our issues for us daily, and has defeated Satan utterly...Yes ;as we submit!!, but we must still daily submit.
The will does not operate without/apart from a determining influence, which is one's disposition--what one prefers.
Oh, I know that. . .same here. I trust you never to be unkind.
Yes, the illustrations were not the problem, the inadequate human (not divine) principles were the problem.
The numerals, 1 and 2, show which it is. . .1Co and 2Co.
Actually Paul states a specific reward for work well done (1Co 3:10-15) and
a specific prize (1Co 9:15-24) for which he runs the race (1Co 9:15-24),
which are an eternal crown of glory (1Pe 5:4), and
John speaks of believers laying crowns before the throne (Rev 4:10)--because the work and glory is all God's.
Oh, I'm so glad I misunderstood you on that, and you didn't mean for salvation.
It's not robotic, it's preferential.
The will is governed by one's disposition, which causes one to prefer one thing over another, and causing its choices,
just as the animal is governed by its disposition against vinegar, which causes it not to prefer it, and never to choose it.
It's not robotic, it's a preference, for or against, which resides in the disposition.
In the unregenerate, the will is governed by an unregenerate disposition which cannot please God (Ro 8:7-8).
In the regenerate (born again), the will is governed by a regenerated disposition under the influence of the Holy Spirit.
I think you are not discerning here the Biblical teaching showing that
God will keep his sons (1Pe 1:5) through heart-purifying discipline (Heb 12:5-6),
which process Paul and James describe in (Ro 5:3; Jas 1:2-4) as producing perseverance and,
by definition, perseverance does not fall away.
I'm thinkin' wherever or whomever taught you this doctrine of victory in Christ did not give you the whole counsel of God regarding the believer's secured-by-his-death-and-immovable position in Christ which comes with saving faith.
It seems you haven't considered the Scriptures which present God as the author and finisher of it all (Php 1:6, 2:13, etc.).
Does a preference for chocolate ice cream "hoist us up with a crane and make us" choose it over vanilla?
That's not how preferences work.
In spiritual matters, our preferences are determined by our disposition, which is either fallen or regenerated.
No, forgiveness (1Jn 1:9) is not discipline (Heb 12:5-11).
God's discipline produces righteousness, and righteousness does not make a habit of choosing evil.
And that is how God keeps his sons, by producing righteousness in them, which righteousness keeps them.
God keeps his sons through righteousness,
worked in them by obedience to his exhortations and commands through the Holy Spirit,
or worked in them by God's discipline, producing the righteousness (Heb 12:11) which keeps them.
Actually, I have not.
When I came to saving faith, I came to the Scriptures with lots of questions, including regarding the sovereignty of God.
I read the Bible, non-stop, from Gen 1:1 to Bonded Leather, and found the answers to those questions there.
No one had to spoon feed it to me, the Holy Spirit's illumination was with mighty power.
The absolute sovereignty of God was the most consistent and overwhelming truth throughout, from which I could not escape.
Thanks heavens for Paul who made it understandable!
My only job was to believe it. . .and I do.
But for me it is not a complete victory if I have to maintain it, or I can lose it.
For me, it is complete only if it is secured permanently, with God keeping me in it, as the Scriptures state (1Pe 1:5).
Picking it up daily is the heart-purifying process, which one embraces either willingly in carrying the cross,
or by God's discipline, both of which produce righteousness (Heb 12:5-11), which keeps us.
God does not lose his own (Jn 10:28-29). . .and is loser to no man, including his sons.
Oh, I know that. . .same here. I trust you never to be unkind.
Yes, the illustrations were not the problem, the inadequate human (not divine) principles were the problem.
The numerals, 1 and 2, show which it is. . .1Co and 2Co.
Actually Paul states a specific reward for work well done (1Co 3:10-15) and
a specific prize (1Co 9:15-24) for which he runs the race (1Co 9:15-24),
which are an eternal crown of glory (1Pe 5:4), and
John speaks of believers laying crowns before the throne (Rev 4:10)--because the work and glory is all God's.
Oh, I'm so glad I misunderstood you on that, and you didn't mean for salvation.
It's not robotic, it's preferential.
The will is governed by one's disposition, which causes one to prefer one thing over another, and causing its choices,
just as the animal is governed by its disposition against vinegar, which causes it not to prefer it, and never to choose it.
It's not robotic, it's a preference, for or against, which resides in the disposition.
In the unregenerate, the will is governed by an unregenerate disposition which cannot please God (Ro 8:7-8).
In the regenerate (born again), the will is governed by a regenerated disposition under the influence of the Holy Spirit.
I think you are not discerning here the Biblical teaching showing that
God will keep his sons (1Pe 1:5) through heart-purifying discipline (Heb 12:5-6),
which process Paul and James describe in (Ro 5:3; Jas 1:2-4) as producing perseverance and,
by definition, perseverance does not fall away.
I'm thinkin' wherever or whomever taught you this doctrine of victory in Christ did not give you the whole counsel of God regarding the believer's secured-by-his-death-and-immovable position in Christ which comes with saving faith.
It seems you haven't considered the Scriptures which present God as the author and finisher of it all (Php 1:6, 2:13, etc.).
Does a preference for chocolate ice cream "hoist us up with a crane and make us" choose it over vanilla?
That's not how preferences work.
In spiritual matters, our preferences are determined by our disposition, which is either fallen or regenerated.
No, forgiveness (1Jn 1:9) is not discipline (Heb 12:5-11).
God's discipline produces righteousness, and righteousness does not make a habit of choosing evil.
And that is how God keeps his sons, by producing righteousness in them, which righteousness keeps them.
God keeps his sons through righteousness,
worked in them by obedience to his exhortations and commands through the Holy Spirit,
or worked in them by God's discipline, producing the righteousness (Heb 12:11) which keeps them.
Actually, I have not.
When I came to saving faith, I came to the Scriptures with lots of questions, including regarding the sovereignty of God.
I read the Bible, non-stop, from Gen 1:1 to Bonded Leather, and found the answers to those questions there.
No one had to spoon feed it to me, the Holy Spirit's illumination was with mighty power.
The absolute sovereignty of God was the most consistent and overwhelming truth throughout, from which I could not escape.
Thanks heavens for Paul who made it understandable!
My only job was to believe it. . .and I do.
But for me it is not a complete victory if I have to maintain it, or I can lose it.
For me, it is complete only if it is secured permanently, with God keeping me in it, as the Scriptures state (1Pe 1:5).
Picking it up daily is the heart-purifying process, which one embraces either willingly in carrying the cross,
or by God's discipline, both of which produce righteousness (Heb 12:5-11), which keeps us.
God does not lose his own (Jn 10:28-29). . .and is loser to no man, including his sons.
Last edited: