The Father Of Roman Catholicism, Emperor Constatine The Great

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GodMyFortress

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May 9, 2021
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Yes God gave authority to his disciples to forgive sins. However as we see in the case of Simon the sorcerer that the propositions of selling the gifts of the Holy was abhorrent. So go on and attempt to soft sell the absolute evil of pope Leo, and you become the propagandaist of Satan.
I don’t like Leo. I think I’ve been pretty clear about that. Also, an indulgence is not used as a means to forgive sins. An indulgence is nothing more than the Church telling a Christian they have done enough penance for a sin God has already forgiven them for. Basically saying, that God will no longer make you suffer any punishment from God while you are still not in heaven for that sin. The binding and loosing you described earlier.

Alms giving is one way of doing penance but Leo let people be misled by the people collecting the alms and those bad people lied and said the indulgence that was earned by their alms would give the alms giver more than it actually did. Leo was not a good fit for the job he had.
 

Athanasius377

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Aug 20, 2020
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No I’m not, he believes the things I believe. You would disagree with nearly everything he believed if you read what he wrote. He ask saints to pray for him, believed in baptism regeneration, confession to priests, the authority of the Pope, and on and on.
But he doesn't believe in Transubstantiation, Papal infallibility, the treasury of merit, the assumption of Mary, etc . That alone places him outside the Roman church. Which is the problem when the great doctor of the church would be considered a heretic by the supposed modern successor of the church he as a leader of.
 

Athanasius377

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Can a Christian believe in Sola Scriptura and believe that. I’ve never read one biblical scholar that wouldn’t find that untenable.
Again, Sola scriptura is the doctrine that the only god breathed source of faith and practice is in the scriptures over and against tradition. You're twisting what the doctrine means but that is because you have to. You have a tradition that is not at all ancient to defend.
 

GodMyFortress

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But he doesn't believe in Transubstantiation, Papal infallibility, the treasury of merit, the assumption of Mary, etc . That alone places him outside the Roman church. Which is the problem when the great doctor of the church would be considered a heretic by the supposed modern successor of the church he as a leader of.
How do you know he doesn’t believe those things? Does he deny it?
 

GodMyFortress

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But he doesn't believe in Transubstantiation, Papal infallibility, the treasury of merit, the assumption of Mary, etc . That alone places him outside the Roman church. Which is the problem when the great doctor of the church would be considered a heretic by the supposed modern successor of the church he as a leader of.
Here’s Augustine talking about the authority of the Pope to settle doctrine. Pay particular attention to the second paragraph. Augustine was as Catholic as I am.

ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO
There here are many other things that most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his Resurrection, put in charge of feeding his sheep, down to the present episcopate [of Pope Siricius] [Against the Letter of Mani Called “ The Foundation” 4:5 (A.D. 397)].

[On this matter of the Pelagians] two councils have already been sent to the Apostolic See [the bishop of Rome], and from there replies too have come. The matter is at an end; would that the error too might be at an end! [Sermons 131:10 (c. A.D. 411)].
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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Giving happy face reactions to postings is considered trolling? :)

NO giving 48 after being banned once under a different name is. he must be your friend or maybe you are both the same with two accounts
 

Athanasius377

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Aug 20, 2020
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How do you know he doesn’t believe those things? Does he deny it?
In most cases yes. I am not near my computer at the moment with Logos installed but I can cite where Augustine clearly believes differently than you. I would however spend some time reading the entire text of Augstine's letters you quote so you know what the reasoning and line or argumentation is.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1405.htm

New Advent is a RC run site that has the text of Phillip Schaff's Ante and post Nicene fathers series 1 and 2. Spend some time reading the fathers in their context and you will find they are all over the place when it comes to doctrine and belief. Some have great insight here but are out to lunch on this point. some are not operating with a complete canon of scripture. The point is let the fathers speak as the fathers without putting doctrines in their writings because Rome tells you what you must find there. Which I would add is not how you do history in any other subject.
 

14meatcc

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All's I know is that I didn't believe and through someone's testimony I fell I was wrong in my unbelief. I guess that was good enough for God for he drew me into the heavens and let me experience his unharnessed love, then he imputed me with his spirit (oh the ecstatic joy when I first believed), then, six and a half years later he instanteneiy opened my eyes to his word, gave me a burning desire to study, gave me my love and belief in his word, and the ability to know the truth.
See, now the thing is that I never believed enough to care to ask for this. It was initiated by Him. Everything I possess pertaining to God and his truth and will was imputed in me without my consent. Without my consent but I wouldn't change a thing because it's by far the BEST THING that has and will ever happen to me.
You can imagine the doctrine I believe.
Predestination, chosen, etc. I believe it be cause I am living proof.
GLORY BE TO GOD IN THE HIGHEST. PRAISE HIS MERCY AND GRACE!!!!!
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
I don’t like Leo. I think I’ve been pretty clear about that. Also, an indulgence is not used as a means to forgive sins. An indulgence is nothing more than the Church telling a Christian they have done enough penance for a sin God has already forgiven them for. Basically saying, that God will no longer make you suffer any punishment from God while you are still not in heaven for that sin. The binding and loosing you described earlier.

Alms giving is one way of doing penance but Leo let people be misled by the people collecting the alms and those bad people lied and said the indulgence that was earned by their alms would give the alms giver more than it actually did. Leo was not a good fit for the job he had.
What a wonderfully deceptive obfuscation.
The historical record is clear.
Here in the south we call what you're doing white washing, other American cultures call it a clean up story.
Your condemnation of Leo and then white washing the practice, we have a term for that too. Talking out of both side of your mouth. It all comes down to dishonesty.
 

shittim

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2016
7,653
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Wow, so much for you walking in love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self control, with every thought word and deed.
Please be very careful my black powder friend, we can all hit road bumps in our walk, we all need to get back on the smooth path He has created for us.(y):)
best wishes
 

Athanasius377

Active member
Aug 20, 2020
161
58
28
Northern Kentucky
I don’t like Leo. I think I’ve been pretty clear about that. Also, an indulgence is not used as a means to forgive sins. An indulgence is nothing more than the Church telling a Christian they have done enough penance for a sin God has already forgiven them for. Basically saying, that God will no longer make you suffer any punishment from God while you are still not in heaven for that sin. The binding and loosing you described earlier.

Alms giving is one way of doing penance but Leo let people be misled by the people collecting the alms and those bad people lied and said the indulgence that was earned by their alms would give the alms giver more than it actually did. Leo was not a good fit for the job he had.
Um, no.

So this is rather complicated but here goes. An Indulgence simply put is the forgiveness of Temporal punishment after the guilt has been forgiven. This assumes a retributive system of justice that is not known in scripture. This is partly due to the mistranslation into latin the greek word μετανοέω which we translate (following Erasmus) "repent" (Matt 4:17) the Vulgate translated poenitentia which means "Do penance". This is closely tied to the doctrine of purgatory which develops along side the idea of indulgences so that over time the performance of penance became a substitute for temporal punishment in purgatory. Which then begs the question of what is purgatory.
Purgatory is an intermediate state where the faithful who are in route to heaven must be cleansed of all the temporal punishment due sin already forgiven and venial or minor sin. The cleansing involves fire not unlike hell. While there's no exact time when the average person will endure the fires of purgatory most medieval sources have it in the tens of thousands of years.

Back to indulgences. As penance came to be considered as a substitute for temporal punishment in purgatory, the path naturally lead to the belief that the prayers and merits of the saints availed to shorten such punishment itself, even for sins which did not require penance. Later, with the relaxation of the penitential discipline, alternative works and alms were permitted instead of the prescribed penances, and the merits of Christ and the saints taken from the "Treasury of Merit" make up the deficiency. And with John Tetzel the alternative penance was simply cold hard cash. And why not? How much would you pay to get Grandma out of 10000 years of purgatory with its almost hellish fires. Which begs another definition.

"Treasury of Merit". is the belief that because Christ and all the saints acquired though good works extra merit to get into to heaven the excess was deposited like funds into the the treasury of merit. Not unlike a bank account, And guess who controls the treasury of merit? You guessed it, the Pope. And how do you get some of this merit? Through an indulgence.

So back again to indulgences. Leo X was broke. The papacy's account was way short of money to build St Peter's Basilica so as luck would have it the new archbishop of Mainz was also looking to pay back some benefactors after having leant money to buy the archbishopric (yes, good old fashioned simony) so they made a deal. The pope would declare a plenary indulgence and in exchange for alms the buyer received a letter that said granny was out of purgatory. Then the Pope and the good archbishop split the proceeds. It was this practice that drew the attention of an augustinian monk named Martin Luther and launched the reformation.


For general indulgences, there is no certain evidence datable before the 11th cent. In the 12th cent., however, the practice of granting indulgences became more common. And they are still granted to this very day though to be fair they are granted under very specific circumstances.
 

Athanasius377

Active member
Aug 20, 2020
161
58
28
Northern Kentucky
Um, no.

So this is rather complicated but here goes. An Indulgence simply put is the forgiveness of Temporal punishment after the guilt has been forgiven. This assumes a retributive system of justice that is not known in scripture. This is partly due to the mistranslation into latin the greek word μετανοέω which we translate (following Erasmus) "repent" (Matt 4:17) the Vulgate translated poenitentia which means "Do penance". This is closely tied to the doctrine of purgatory which develops along side the idea of indulgences so that over time the performance of penance became a substitute for temporal punishment in purgatory. Which then begs the question of what is purgatory.
Purgatory is an intermediate state where the faithful who are in route to heaven must be cleansed of all the temporal punishment due sin already forgiven and venial or minor sin. The cleansing involves fire not unlike hell. While there's no exact time when the average person will endure the fires of purgatory most medieval sources have it in the tens of thousands of years.

Back to indulgences. As penance came to be considered as a substitute for temporal punishment in purgatory, the path naturally lead to the belief that the prayers and merits of the saints availed to shorten such punishment itself, even for sins which did not require penance. Later, with the relaxation of the penitential discipline, alternative works and alms were permitted instead of the prescribed penances, and the merits of Christ and the saints taken from the "Treasury of Merit" make up the deficiency. And with John Tetzel the alternative penance was simply cold hard cash. And why not? How much would you pay to get Grandma out of 10000 years of purgatory with its almost hellish fires. Which begs another definition.

"Treasury of Merit". is the belief that because Christ and all the saints acquired though good works extra merit to get into to heaven the excess was deposited like funds into the the treasury of merit. Not unlike a bank account, And guess who controls the treasury of merit? You guessed it, the Pope. And how do you get some of this merit? Through an indulgence.

So back again to indulgences. Leo X was broke. The papacy's account was way short of money to build St Peter's Basilica so as luck would have it the new archbishop of Mainz was also looking to pay back some benefactors after having leant money to buy the archbishopric (yes, good old fashioned simony) so they made a deal. The pope would declare a plenary indulgence and in exchange for alms the buyer received a letter that said granny was out of purgatory. Then the Pope and the good archbishop split the proceeds. It was this practice that drew the attention of an augustinian monk named Martin Luther and launched the reformation.


For general indulgences, there is no certain evidence datable before the 11th cent. In the 12th cent., however, the practice of granting indulgences became more common. And they are still granted to this very day though to be fair they are granted under very specific circumstances.
It’s been said Erasmus laid the egg that Luther hatched in regards to the translation of the NT.
 

GodMyFortress

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May 9, 2021
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What a wonderfully deceptive obfuscation.
The historical record is clear.
Here in the south we call what you're doing white washing, other American cultures call it a clean up story.
Your condemnation of Leo and then white washing the practice, we have a term for that too. Talking out of both side of your mouth. It all comes down to dishonesty.
Lol I’ve white washed nothing. I explained what an indulgence is then I condemned the people who lied to people about them. When you’re ready take your bigoted anti-Catholic glasses off and have a respectful conversation like a Christian, let me know.
 

GodMyFortress

Active member
May 9, 2021
432
60
28
Um, no.

So this is rather complicated but here goes. An Indulgence simply put is the forgiveness of Temporal punishment after the guilt has been forgiven. This assumes a retributive system of justice that is not known in scripture. This is partly due to the mistranslation into latin the greek word μετανοέω which we translate (following Erasmus) "repent" (Matt 4:17) the Vulgate translated poenitentia which means "Do penance". This is closely tied to the doctrine of purgatory which develops along side the idea of indulgences so that over time the performance of penance became a substitute for temporal punishment in purgatory. Which then begs the question of what is purgatory.
Purgatory is an intermediate state where the faithful who are in route to heaven must be cleansed of all the temporal punishment due sin already forgiven and venial or minor sin. The cleansing involves fire not unlike hell. While there's no exact time when the average person will endure the fires of purgatory most medieval sources have it in the tens of thousands of years.

Back to indulgences. As penance came to be considered as a substitute for temporal punishment in purgatory, the path naturally lead to the belief that the prayers and merits of the saints availed to shorten such punishment itself, even for sins which did not require penance. Later, with the relaxation of the penitential discipline, alternative works and alms were permitted instead of the prescribed penances, and the merits of Christ and the saints taken from the "Treasury of Merit" make up the deficiency. And with John Tetzel the alternative penance was simply cold hard cash. And why not? How much would you pay to get Grandma out of 10000 years of purgatory with its almost hellish fires. Which begs another definition.

"Treasury of Merit". is the belief that because Christ and all the saints acquired though good works extra merit to get into to heaven the excess was deposited like funds into the the treasury of merit. Not unlike a bank account, And guess who controls the treasury of merit? You guessed it, the Pope. And how do you get some of this merit? Through an indulgence.

So back again to indulgences. Leo X was broke. The papacy's account was way short of money to build St Peter's Basilica so as luck would have it the new archbishop of Mainz was also looking to pay back some benefactors after having leant money to buy the archbishopric (yes, good old fashioned simony) so they made a deal. The pope would declare a plenary indulgence and in exchange for alms the buyer received a letter that said granny was out of purgatory. Then the Pope and the good archbishop split the proceeds. It was this practice that drew the attention of an augustinian monk named Martin Luther and launched the reformation.


For general indulgences, there is no certain evidence datable before the 11th cent. In the 12th cent., however, the practice of granting indulgences became more common. And they are still granted to this very day though to be fair they are granted under very specific circumstances.
Not reading all that. You lost all credibility with me the moment you started saying early Catholics weren’t actually Catholic, despite the fact they believed in uniquely Catholic doctrines, belonged to the Catholic Church, and called themselves Catholic.
 

Athanasius377

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Aug 20, 2020
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Not reading all that. You lost all credibility with me the moment you started saying early Catholics weren’t actually Catholic, despite the fact they believed in uniquely Catholic doctrines, belonged to the Catholic Church, and called themselves Catholic.
Well, the early catholics didn’t. Indulgences is but one example. I was a Latin mass going, scapular wearing sweating confession RC. In fact I still have my old st Joseph diglott missal. I said all my prayers especially those with indulgences attached to them. I thought I understood the history until I read the fathers myself. That’s why people like Luther and Calvin could refer back to fathers almost in an encyclopedic way to prove they weren’t innovating. The history as you would like to see it simply isn’t there. Catholic was used as a term over and against gnostic heretics. Not as the modern denomination proper noun.
 

Athanasius377

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Aug 20, 2020
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Northern Kentucky
Lol I’ve white washed nothing. I explained what an indulgence is then I condemned the people who lied to people about them. When you’re ready take your bigoted anti-Catholic glasses off and have a respectful conversation like a Christian, let me know.
Calling someone an anti catholic bigot is sign you’ve lost the argument friend. He was simply pointing out you did a poor job at defining an indulgence.
 

GodMyFortress

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May 9, 2021
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Calling someone an anti catholic bigot is sign you’ve lost the argument friend. He was simply pointing out you did a poor job at defining an indulgence.
I said nothing inaccurate about what an indulgence is. I just don’t need 4 to 5 paragraphs to explain things like you do. And yes he is bigoted towards Catholics
 

GodMyFortress

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May 9, 2021
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Well, the early catholics didn’t. Indulgences is but one example. I was a Latin mass going, scapular wearing sweating confession RC. In fact I still have my old st Joseph diglott missal. I said all my prayers especially those with indulgences attached to them. I thought I understood the history until I read the fathers myself. That’s why people like Luther and Calvin could refer back to fathers almost in an encyclopedic way to prove they weren’t innovating. The history as you would like to see it simply isn’t there. Catholic was used as a term over and against gnostic heretics. Not as the modern denomination proper noun.
Luther and Calvin were very clear about how they came to their OWN conclusions about what scripture said. They were very arrogant, Calvin killed people for disagreeing with him in that cult colony he governed. I’m not following a church created by those men over 1600 years after Christ established his church.