the function of the 144,000
- Thread starter kentappel
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
A
anyway I guess its because the cities are located in Asia and John the Baptist only preached in Israel.
still it would be interesting if it was from John the Baptist as written and revealed to Him by Jesus before he was beheaded.
Prophecies are often written before any of it makes sense. For example:
Daniel 12
1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
notice how it says Knowledge shall INCREASE? some people say the Bible talks about knowledge decreasing but this is obvious that God says something different.
notice the above passage talks about tribulation and resurrection?
still it would be interesting if it was from John the Baptist as written and revealed to Him by Jesus before he was beheaded.
Prophecies are often written before any of it makes sense. For example:
Daniel 12
1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
notice how it says Knowledge shall INCREASE? some people say the Bible talks about knowledge decreasing but this is obvious that God says something different.
notice the above passage talks about tribulation and resurrection?
A
Revelations 7
I read it again and the 144, 000 thing is placed right before it talks about the saints around the throne of God. People think the saints are the raptured folks and that is why you get the theology concerning it all.
I don't believe in the Rapture. I believe in the resurrection of saints at the end of the age when Jesus returns and destroys the whole earth after tribulation.
anyways it is intersting to read scripture. it says they come out of the great tribulation (meaning they had to endure and remain faithful) notice they were crying but God wipes away their tears?
Revelations 7
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.
I read it again and the 144, 000 thing is placed right before it talks about the saints around the throne of God. People think the saints are the raptured folks and that is why you get the theology concerning it all.
I don't believe in the Rapture. I believe in the resurrection of saints at the end of the age when Jesus returns and destroys the whole earth after tribulation.
anyways it is intersting to read scripture. it says they come out of the great tribulation (meaning they had to endure and remain faithful) notice they were crying but God wipes away their tears?
Revelations 7
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.
L
Amen
Revelation 6:11
(11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Revelation 13:15-17
(15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
(16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
(17) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Revelation 6:11
(11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Revelation 13:15-17
(15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
(16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
(17) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
L
Luke 3:1
(1) Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
Mark 6:21
(21) And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthday made a supper to his lords, high captains, and chief estates of Galilee;
John the baptist was put in prison in Galilee not Patmos
Glad we agree on some things!
More Gematria for ya:
360 day lunar years x 400 years of Captivity:
.......360 day lunar years
....x 400 years captivity
---------
144,000
Note there were 144,000 polished casing stones on the Great Pyramid at Giza, most of
which have now been stripped off after Islamic Control, and used for various purposes
such as Mosques.
The general idea was 'coning out of Egypt' (up from the [spiritual] abyss) more in the
figurative/spiritual sense than literal, but that too.
More Gematria for ya:
360 day lunar years x 400 years of Captivity:
.......360 day lunar years
....x 400 years captivity
---------
144,000
Note there were 144,000 polished casing stones on the Great Pyramid at Giza, most of
which have now been stripped off after Islamic Control, and used for various purposes
such as Mosques.
The general idea was 'coning out of Egypt' (up from the [spiritual] abyss) more in the
figurative/spiritual sense than literal, but that too.
T
With all due respect Abiding; theres nothing in the scripturse that would lead me to such a conclusion. Please Clarify if you would. And the brother is right at least from a scriptural perspective; it would seem the church has gotten so use to teaching something one way; it never occurred to them that they may have been teaching it erroneously the entire time. Id like to have a BIBLICAL answer to his question as well. Ive been making changes in my own life lately regarding scripture. Im ready to toss tradition to the side in order to allow the truth of the Word of Godl to permeate my heart.
A
With all due respect Abiding; theres nothing in the scripturse that would lead me to such a conclusion. Please Clarify if you would. And the brother is right at least from a scriptural perspective; it would seem the church has gotten so use to teaching something one way; it never occurred to them that they may have been teaching it erroneously the entire time. Id like to have a BIBLICAL answer to his question as well. Ive been making changes in my own life lately regarding scripture. Im ready to toss tradition to the side in order to allow the truth of the Word of Godl to permeate my heart.[/quote
Sure Tri
Ill put on a pot of coffee and get right on it. Im so lazy..ha
Sure Tri
Ill put on a pot of coffee and get right on it. Im so lazy..ha
A
Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed and there were sealed an hundred and fourty and four thousand of all the [tribes
of the children of Isreal.]
of the children of Isreal.]
12 is a number of completion.
The scene is Gods final dealings with Isreal between the day of Penticost and 70 ad. And the finishing of the Old Covenant.
12 speaks of redemption. Under the Old Covenant God ordained 12 tribes of Isreal.
Under the Law there were objects of redemption used in the tabernacle.
Lev.24:5 12 breadcakes Numbers 7:84 12 silver plates, 12 silver bowls, 12 golden pans.
And continuing redemption in the New Covenant God ordained 12 Apostles.
This is taken from a book called "The most embarrarrassing book in the bible Understanding the book of Revelation" by Dr Andrew Corbett:
When a number is cubed in apocalyptic literature, it is used to stress
“ultimate” or “maximum”. Apocalyptic interpretation is based on Old Testament
precedent. So when we see something in the Old Testament which is stressed
three times, and it clearly means ultimate or maximum we can be confident that
this is the correct interpretation when dealing with Revelation. For example, God
is described as being holy, holy, holy which obviously means that He is the
ultimate or maximum expression of holiness.
The description of the 144,000 is represented as 12 tribes with 12,000 from
each tribe. If we see that 12 from 12 tribes is 144, and that multiplied by 10 cubed
(1,000) we can see that 144,000 represents the ultimate redemption of the true
Israel in the transition period between the Old Covenant into the New (note
Romans 11:26). The time leading up to 70AD marks the closing of the Jewish
Age.When a number is cubed in apocalyptic literature, it is used to stress
“ultimate” or “maximum”. Apocalyptic interpretation is based on Old Testament
precedent. So when we see something in the Old Testament which is stressed
three times, and it clearly means ultimate or maximum we can be confident that
this is the correct interpretation when dealing with Revelation. For example, God
is described as being holy, holy, holy which obviously means that He is the
ultimate or maximum expression of holiness.
The description of the 144,000 is represented as 12 tribes with 12,000 from
each tribe. If we see that 12 from 12 tribes is 144, and that multiplied by 10 cubed
(1,000) we can see that 144,000 represents the ultimate redemption of the true
Israel in the transition period between the Old Covenant into the New (note
Romans 11:26). The time leading up to 70AD marks the closing of the Jewish
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As Jesus said in Matthew 24 that the gospel would be preached in all the land then the end would come. These were the final and complete
number of Isreal to be saved and then came the destruction of the temple and the city. I believe it is a term not a specific number. And has been fulfilled.
The Old Covenant is done. Does this make sense?
I am not interested in what Charles Capp has to say about the subject as I am only interested in what the Bible says about it. Is it so hard for someone to come up with scripture to back up what is taught in some chruches these days?
Unless I missed them being mentioned elsewhere in scripture, Revelation 7 and 14 are the only referrence to the 144,000 and it says nowhere in these passages that they are tribulation evengelists so my only conclusions so far is that they are not or that we don't know what their function is.
Unless I missed them being mentioned elsewhere in scripture, Revelation 7 and 14 are the only referrence to the 144,000 and it says nowhere in these passages that they are tribulation evengelists so my only conclusions so far is that they are not or that we don't know what their function is.
kentappel, you know everything there is to know of the 144,000.
you're right that the rest is personal interpretation.
based on the the 2 things you noted:
it doesn't say they are evangelists, it also doesn't say they are not.
it simply doesn't say WHAT they do, except that they are undefiled with women (i believe this means idolatry); and they follow the Lamb wherever he goes (i believe this means they are the faithful remnant of Israel, since the very tribes are listed by name).
The Lord told elijah after all that baal worship and idolatry that He had 7,000 men reserved or preserved who had not fallen away.
that's not very many.
but, He has stated unequivocally through both Old & New Testaments (esp. concerning israel) He would always have a remnant.
as Abiding and others have pointed out, the number 12 is significant concerning God's dealings with us ecclesiastically; and given Revelation is entirely made up of symbolic images to relay truths;
12 x 12 x 1000 = 144,000.
12 church
1000 complete
~
in the vision, john sees Jesus on Zion with the 144,000.
i believe in context this is a vision of the heavenly realm with the Risen and Reigning Lord with His firstfruits, shown overlooking the scene on earth in triumph. it's a very Glorious picture of Jesus the Victor.
i find it a message of comfort.
you're right that the rest is personal interpretation.
based on the the 2 things you noted:
it doesn't say they are evangelists, it also doesn't say they are not.
it simply doesn't say WHAT they do, except that they are undefiled with women (i believe this means idolatry); and they follow the Lamb wherever he goes (i believe this means they are the faithful remnant of Israel, since the very tribes are listed by name).
The Lord told elijah after all that baal worship and idolatry that He had 7,000 men reserved or preserved who had not fallen away.
that's not very many.
but, He has stated unequivocally through both Old & New Testaments (esp. concerning israel) He would always have a remnant.
as Abiding and others have pointed out, the number 12 is significant concerning God's dealings with us ecclesiastically; and given Revelation is entirely made up of symbolic images to relay truths;
12 x 12 x 1000 = 144,000.
12 church
1000 complete
~
in the vision, john sees Jesus on Zion with the 144,000.
i believe in context this is a vision of the heavenly realm with the Risen and Reigning Lord with His firstfruits, shown overlooking the scene on earth in triumph. it's a very Glorious picture of Jesus the Victor.
i find it a message of comfort.