The God of Israel, to Jesus the Christ.

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Jun 1, 2016
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#1
who is Israel? and why is Israel special to God?

it begins with abram, the Grandson of Noah. the first encounter of abram in scripture....

genesis 12:1-5 "Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee : And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; "

then abram has this promise for His descendants who would be enslaved by egypt and then delivered after.

Genesis 15:12-18 "And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him. And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. "

you see the first covenant being rooted Here regarding Israels descendants, and you also see the roots of the Gospel, that includes all peoples of the earth.

God renames abram , abraham and gives the name isaac to abraham for His Son.


God names abram abraham, He names Isaac through the promise of establishing the covenant with Him after Abraham dies


genesis 17:5 "Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. <<< notice the present tense because it is a promise of God it is assured, though not yet manifest.)


v 19 "And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. "

and the God of Jacob, of course Jacob is Isaacs, younger Son. God again chooses Jacob to continue the promise He made to abraham, that His descendants would be enslaved and then increased and Blessed afterward and delivered. and Also the promise that through abraham all nations of the earth would be blessed, later we read " and in thy seed, all peoples of the earth "

this spoken to Isaac...

Genesis 26:4-5 "And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

you see How the covenant made with abraham, Isaacs Father was passed on to Isaac, and then from Isaac it is passed on the same way to Jacob. even in the psalms when david is being told His seed will be raised up to sit forever on the throne in the eternal Kingdom....it is still the fulfillment of the promise made to abraham, that His seed would bless the earth. His Seed is Israel, the 12 sons of Israel ( Jacob) then become the 12 tribes of Israel move into egypt during the famine and after the King and Jospeh die, the egyptians begin to fear the increase of Israel and they enslave them. eventually Israel is delivered and lead into the promised land, and from the same Line that began with abram, Jesus the Messiah is Born.

as we read frequently in the Prophets, while the Messiah would come because of the promise made to abraham and His descendants, the messiah would not be exclusively for the Jews, but for all people of the earth, which is the Gospel beforehand being promised before anyone understood what it meant.


the Point israel and thier covenant until the Gospel came, is not exclusive, it is merely a part of the plan unfolding Leading to the fulness of the Gospel. the Messiah was promised to the nation of Israel, but this was not enough, God also gave Him for salvation of all people of the earth. this is where the covenant expands to the earth, as promised to abraham in the beginning, before the Law was ever Given, the Gospel was promised to abraham, and to all the people of the earth.


God is Good, all glory Hinor and praise Belong to Him and to His Son at His Right Hand
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
59
48
#2
You for got 12:7 this is very important because those that are into replacement theology link it to Galatians 3:16 as it should be, but they try to aplly it to Genesis 15 and 17 as well and it should not be.

Genesis 12:7 "
Then the Lord appeared to Abram and said, “To your offspring I will give this land.” So he built there an altar to the Lord, who had appeared to him."

Galatians 3:16 "Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,”
referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ."

So we know that this is talking about Chirst, but when we look at Genesis 15:5
“And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

Genesis 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.

Notice this covenant is to Abraham's offspring that number the stars of the heavens in Genesis 15 and in 17 the Lord makes it to "
your offspring after you throughout their generations" thier is plural as is generations, this is not talking about Christ unless they believe in many Christs throughout thier generations. That would mean many Christs in every generation and we know that is know true. They need to bow the Scripture.

Also notice that in Genesis 15:17-21
When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces.18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates,19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites,20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim,21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites.”

Here the Lord ratifies the covenant and gives the map for the land, in Genesis 17:13 the Lord says that this everlasting coveneants sign is circumcision, but He name the son of Abraham that He will establish this covenant with in 17:19
"God said, “No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him."

Sorry replacement theology people it is not Christ it is Isacc, Galatains 3:16 has nothing to do with Genesis 15 and 17. Submit to Scripture. Also 17:8 mentions the land of Canaan, again as specific land. Paul is not saying that this offspring id one that is Christ, because Christ is not as in number as the stars of the heavens and He is not to thier generations because that is plural not singular and in Genesis 12:7, yes that is speaking of Christ, but 15 and 17 are not or bring the Scripture that show that the Lord is speaking of Christ in Genesis 15 and 17.
 
May 11, 2014
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#3
You for got 12:7 this is very important because those that are into replacement theology link it to Galatians 3:16 as it should be, but they try to aplly it to Genesis 15 and 17 as well and it should not be.

Genesis 12:7 "
Then the Lord appeared to Abram and said, “To your offspring I will give this land.” So he built there an altar to the Lord, who had appeared to him."

Galatians 3:16 "Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,”
referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ."

So we know that this is talking about Chirst, but when we look at Genesis 15:5
“And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

Genesis 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.

Notice this covenant is to Abraham's offspring that number the stars of the heavens in Genesis 15 and in 17 the Lord makes it to "
your offspring after you throughout their generations" thier is plural as is generations, this is not talking about Christ unless they believe in many Christs throughout thier generations. That would mean many Christs in every generation and we know that is know true. They need to bow the Scripture.

Also notice that in Genesis 15:17-21
When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces.18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates,19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites,20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim,21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites.”

Here the Lord ratifies the covenant and gives the map for the land, in Genesis 17:13 the Lord says that this everlasting coveneants sign is circumcision, but He name the son of Abraham that He will establish this covenant with in 17:19
"God said, “No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him."

Sorry replacement theology people it is not Christ it is Isacc, Galatains 3:16 has nothing to do with Genesis 15 and 17. Submit to Scripture. Also 17:8 mentions the land of Canaan, again as specific land. Paul is not saying that this offspring id one that is Christ, because Christ is not as in number as the stars of the heavens and He is not to thier generations because that is plural not singular and in Genesis 12:7, yes that is speaking of Christ, but 15 and 17 are not or bring the Scripture that show that the Lord is speaking of Christ in Genesis 15 and 17.
Hard to follow this. So what part of the promises to Abraham do Christians inherit?
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
59
48
#5
Hard to follow this. So what part of the promises to Abraham do Christians inherit?
This covenant is to the Israel in the flesh and the sign is circumcision, Genesis 17:7, with verse 19 naming Isaac and his offspring as those the everlasting covenant will be established.
 
Jun 1, 2016
5,032
120
0
#6
You for got 12:7 this is very important because those that are into replacement theology link it to Galatians 3:16 as it should be, but they try to aplly it to Genesis 15 and 17 as well and it should not be.

Genesis 12:7 "
Then the Lord appeared to Abram and said, “To your offspring I will give this land.” So he built there an altar to the Lord, who had appeared to him."

Galatians 3:16 "Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,”
referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ."

So we know that this is talking about Chirst, but when we look at Genesis 15:5
“And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

Genesis 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.

Notice this covenant is to Abraham's offspring that number the stars of the heavens in Genesis 15 and in 17 the Lord makes it to "
your offspring after you throughout their generations" thier is plural as is generations, this is not talking about Christ unless they believe in many Christs throughout thier generations. That would mean many Christs in every generation and we know that is know true. They need to bow the Scripture.

Also notice that in Genesis 15:17-21
When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces.18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates,19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites,20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim,21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites.”

Here the Lord ratifies the covenant and gives the map for the land, in Genesis 17:13 the Lord says that this everlasting coveneants sign is circumcision, but He name the son of Abraham that He will establish this covenant with in 17:19
"God said, “No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him."

Sorry replacement theology people it is not Christ it is Isacc, Galatains 3:16 has nothing to do with Genesis 15 and 17. Submit to Scripture. Also 17:8 mentions the land of Canaan, again as specific land. Paul is not saying that this offspring id one that is Christ, because Christ is not as in number as the stars of the heavens and He is not to thier generations because that is plural not singular and in Genesis 12:7, yes that is speaking of Christ, but 15 and 17 are not or bring the Scripture that show that the Lord is speaking of Christ in Genesis 15 and 17.

the seed is Christ lol How did you just quote paul saying that and then conclude its isaac?

you have to look at Isaac, abraham was told to sacrifice His Only Son, abraham tells Isaac " the Lord Himself will provide the sacrifice"

isaac Is spared, and the blessing passes from abraham to isaac, same promise that it will be through abrahams seed, which is now Isaacs seed...and then it goes to jacobs Seed, all the same promise and when you get to jacobs Seed you then Have the 12 sons of Israel which make the 12 tribes of israel. it was always pointing to Gods Seed Jesus Christ, His Only begotten.

think of what abraham was asked to do and then look at what God did on the other end of the covenant, He does what He asked abraham to do, He sacrifices Jesus His only begotten Son, the Seed of promise, the fulfillment of the seed that would bless all people. Im not even sure what " replacement theology" is so im not sure how to answer thatstuff, the seed is definately without a doubt Jesus Christ, Isaac is only a similitude of what God had planned all along, as the old covenant often is . the entire Bible is about Jesus when it is understood
 
Jun 1, 2016
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#7
They share in the spiritual blessings, not the land promises.
if you notice closely Christians are given a better Promised Land that we are offered, Israel was never promised eternal Life, never promised a new earth those things are what Christ Brought to light. Israel shares in the same covenant as Gentile now, there is Only the One covenant. the covenant Jesus Brought, was always the covenant, for instance when the ot people are sacrificing spotless animals...they didnt understand it then, but that was a witness of what Jesus would do. or when they had a passover feast, it was a witness of the Body and Blood of Jesus Gods Lamb. or when Moses speaks to God and then tells the People what he said, the mediator....that was a witness of the One God would send to speak for Him......its all that way. the covenant was always Christ its Just that God built a foundation on the Law so that sinners would realize they were sinners and in need of repentance.

its the timing, man wasnt prepared for Jesus coming then, so God gave them a temporal, pattern of the real things in Heaven that Christ revealed. Thats One of the main points in Hebrews, to tell those who Knew the Law, that it was a foreshadow, a pattern, a temporary "schoolmaster or tutor" to teach them of chrtist so when He came it would all make sense. the Law does that really well it shows so much about the messiah. the covenant between God and Israel, was always doomed to be what would be fulfilled in Jesus coming. the end of the Law was the death and resurrection. it was always written for it to be so.

when Moses was ready to die God told Him the people would rebel and stray from His way, and eventually he would turn from them unleash His wrath upon them and spare a remnant, the remnant will be saved with all christians, the Only salvation is Jesus and the Gospel. the Law was always written to be fulfilled in Jesus He is everything the Law taught the People, the High priest...Jesus, the Mediator...Jesus, the scapegoat....Jesus, the atonement sacrifice...Jesus, the sin sacrifice and fellowship offering...Jesus, The Promised King of Israel who would sit on davids throne forever...Jesus......


all of what was, was made complete in Christ, and all of what is and will be, exists in Christ. there is nothing apart from His gospel that will lea to eternal Life
 
Jun 1, 2016
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#8
This covenant is to the Israel in the flesh and the sign is circumcision, Genesis 17:7, with verse 19 naming Isaac and his offspring as those the everlasting covenant will be established.

do you not see who the covenant is spoken about and who it is really with ? the covenant God made with abram is 2 part One to His seed that would be enslaved in egypt 400 years, the Other part of it, says " all peoples on earth will be blessed in thy seed"


this is not a reference to isaac at all. but in order for abrahams seed to reach Christ, it is passed from abraham, and he begat Isaac, and isaac begat Jacob, Jacob is named israel and Has 12 sons, 70 is the Number of Israel going into egypt God sais " i will greatly increase your people and they will come out of slavery with great gain and i will give them the land I promised you."


That is what lead to the covenant of the Mosaic Law that leads to there, the promise of Faith, is before the Law, and is confirmed By Jesus at His death and resurrection. its not the same covenant, but One is the root, the Other is the fruitful tree. One needs the other in order to be clear. from the start the covenant was to all people of the earth, this is the faith covenant spoken of. the Law came to isaacs seed through Israels seed.....Jesus was born of abrahams seed through Israels seed because all of Israel is abrahams seed, jacobs 12 sons were abrahams grandchildren.

abraham didnt ever become the father of many nations while He was on earth, He walked out faith in the promise of God that said He would be the Father of many nations. the Law covenant is not of faith, or of unseen promise. it specifically was given first to Israel and when Israel was dispursed into the earth the law was also disp[ursed into the earth. Not to save anyone, but to show why we need Jesus. so when the Gospel is later sent to all corners of the earth we understand why we need Jesus. its always been about Jesus the savior of all the earth, it simply Like all things do, came through the Line of Gos choosing, the Line of abraham the man of Faith.


the time before the Law, and the time of the Gospel are connected, the Law which came in between is meant to be there in between in order to lead the Mind and Heart to christ. for instance " I f I know Im a sinner, and Understand that sin leads to death...then I will accept and understand Jesus was sent to call sinners to repentance" if i never see the Law, i can never understand Im a sinner in need of salvation and can never really accept Jesus.


the One covenant for all people eventhough Jesus came after those in the Ot, it is still His blood that paid thier cost. God isnt constrained By Time Like we are His plan unfolds over centuries and Milenniums. we have to step back and see the bigger plan. what Jesus came and said, and did, all has deep meaning that is found in the old things because those things were always meant to lead to and reveal Jesus as the Messiah.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
59
48
#9
the seed is Christ lol How did you just quote paul saying that and then conclude its isaac?you have to look at Isaac, abraham was told to sacrifice His Only Son, abraham tells Isaac " the Lord Himself will provide the sacrifice"isaac Is spared, and the blessing passes from abraham to isaac, same promise that it will be through abrahams seed, which is now Isaacs seed...and then it goes to jacobs Seed, all the same promise and when you get to jacobs Seed you then Have the 12 sons of Israel which make the 12 tribes of israel. it was always pointing to Gods Seed Jesus Christ, His Only begotten.think of what abraham was asked to do and then look at what God did on the other end of the covenant, He does what He asked abraham to do, He sacrifices Jesus His only begotten Son, the Seed of promise, the fulfillment of the seed that would bless all people. Im not even sure what " replacement theology" is so im not sure how to answer thatstuff, the seed is definately without a doubt Jesus Christ, Isaac is only a similitude of what God had planned all along, as the old covenant often is . the entire Bible is about Jesus when it is understood

LOL, I never mentioned Genesis 12:7 which is Christ which is the offspring singular, but 15 and 17 are plural offspring or do you believe that Christ is as the stars of the sky in number or is many nation and is Abraham's offspring that He will establish the everlasting covenant with the sign in the flesh of circumcision is established in Christ and not Isaac as the Holy Spirit said in Genesis 17:19?


"God said, “No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him."


Before I move on, you are saying that the Lord God names names, but He does not mean that that person is going to be the one that He is going to establish a covenant with?


Have you forgot that "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?"


Here is your problem, "you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."


Why is that you are wise in your own sight, "For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree."


I believe in the Doctrines of Grace and my Brothers that hold to all of Calvin's doctrine or ideas, all seem to set God's sovereignty a side when it comes to Israel even when they have the advatage of seeing God's sovereign grace on Israel. By Him bringing them back to the land. In Luther and Calvin's time Israel was a waste land, with nothing but swamps and barren desert land. Now that the replacement theology believers can see how God's sovereignty has help keep the Jews people in the land, they do not believe it. Oh wait you do not know what replacement theology is, you can use something called Google and it will explain to you what it is or do you not know what Google is?


Look at all the wars that Israel has fought since 1948 (again Google) and if you can not see God's sovereignty in them, you do not believe in the sovereignty of God. You are bound by the doctrines of men. There is no way that any Christian can read the history of all their wars and not see the same sovereignty that He displayed as He did in the OT. The '67 wars was not the only miracle by God on the Jews behave since they returned to the land.


The Lord made a covenant with Israel that is not to Christian, the Jews are the natural olive branch and we Gentiles are the wild branch. To believe that God has no covenant to fulfill with Israel is a lack of understanding of the Scriptures and God's sovereignty or being wise in our own eyes.


“I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.”4 But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.”


Wait, Paul is a Christian and there is neither Jews or Gentile in Christ, so why is he identifying himself as an Israelite and calling Israel God's people and himself a descendent of Abraham if Galatians 3:16 is the fulfillment of all Abraham's offspring mentioned in the everlasting covenant of Genesis 15 and 17?


I will love to see your Scriptural response. Hey Brother I came at you the way you came at me, because you started with an LOL and everyone that I talk to about this do not want to deal with Scripture other than Galatians 3:16 once the plurality of Genesis 15 and 17 are brought up. They scream dispensationalism as their arguement, that is weak they can not bring Scripture and they want to name it something. When they simply believe in the doctrines of men and men that did not have the advantage they we have. In seeing Israel being brought back to the land by God's sovereign grace.

It makes me wonder how we would of acted when Christ was here in front of us for our eyes to see.





 
Oct 12, 2017
229
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#10
The Question should be who WAS "Israel"; the 'Israel' today is a phony, using that Name to exploit CHURCHianity and its nations...
 
Jun 1, 2016
5,032
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#11

LOL, I never mentioned Genesis 12:7 which is Christ which is the offspring singular, but 15 and 17 are plural offspring or do you believe that Christ is as the stars of the sky in number or is many nation and is Abraham's offspring that He will establish the everlasting covenant with the sign in the flesh of circumcision is established in Christ and not Isaac as the Holy Spirit said in Genesis 17:19?


"God said, “No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him."


Before I move on, you are saying that the Lord God names names, but He does not mean that that person is going to be the one that He is going to establish a covenant with?


Have you forgot that "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?"


Here is your problem, "you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."


Why is that you are wise in your own sight, "For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree."


I believe in the Doctrines of Grace and my Brothers that hold to all of Calvin's doctrine or ideas, all seem to set God's sovereignty a side when it comes to Israel even when they have the advatage of seeing God's sovereign grace on Israel. By Him bringing them back to the land. In Luther and Calvin's time Israel was a waste land, with nothing but swamps and barren desert land. Now that the replacement theology believers can see how God's sovereignty has help keep the Jews people in the land, they do not believe it. Oh wait you do not know what replacement theology is, you can use something called Google and it will explain to you what it is or do you not know what Google is?


Look at all the wars that Israel has fought since 1948 (again Google) and if you can not see God's sovereignty in them, you do not believe in the sovereignty of God. You are bound by the doctrines of men. There is no way that any Christian can read the history of all their wars and not see the same sovereignty that He displayed as He did in the OT. The '67 wars was not the only miracle by God on the Jews behave since they returned to the land.


The Lord made a covenant with Israel that is not to Christian, the Jews are the natural olive branch and we Gentiles are the wild branch. To believe that God has no covenant to fulfill with Israel is a lack of understanding of the Scriptures and God's sovereignty or being wise in our own eyes.


“I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.”4 But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.”


Wait, Paul is a Christian and there is neither Jews or Gentile in Christ, so why is he identifying himself as an Israelite and calling Israel God's people and himself a descendent of Abraham if Galatians 3:16 is the fulfillment of all Abraham's offspring mentioned in the everlasting covenant of Genesis 15 and 17?


I will love to see your Scriptural response. Hey Brother I came at you the way you came at me, because you started with an LOL and everyone that I talk to about this do not want to deal with Scripture other than Galatians 3:16 once the plurality of Genesis 15 and 17 are brought up. They scream dispensationalism as their arguement, that is weak they can not bring Scripture and they want to name it something. When they simply believe in the doctrines of men and men that did not have the advantage they we have. In seeing Israel being brought back to the land by God's sovereign grace.

It makes me wonder how we would of acted when Christ was here in front of us for our eyes to see.





LOL, I never mentioned Genesis 12:7 which is Christ which is the offspring singular, but 15 and 17 are plural offspring or do you believe that Christ is as the stars of the sky in number or is many nation and is Abraham's offspring that He will establish the everlasting covenant with the sign in the flesh of circumcision is established in Christ and not Isaac as the Holy Spirit said in Genesis 17:19?


you arent hearing what im saying, hear me : the sign of flesh circumcision, for a christian, is an arrow pointing to the circumcision of the heart done By Christ.

colossians 2:11 "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:"

you arent understanding while the first covenant was given to Israel and it was literal for them. we Learn a very important understanding in Hebrews regarding the first Law. what is in it, is actually speaking about Jesus and the Gospel, it is Just that it is perceived through the flesh of man. because the spirit was not yet Given.

the Law of Moses is a pattern of the true things in Heaven. when He had them build the sanctuaries, and all of the artifacts and the ark and all of thosethings, so specifically, its because He is giving moses a pattern of what the true temole looks like in Heaven, what the true throne of God Looks Like, things Like the candlestick are later shown in Heavenly visions when Gods throne is seen, all of the Law is a pattern foretelling of Jesus.

the things they did spoke of what Jesus would do, agaoin the things they did were a pattern of the true things of God. for instance, thier sacrificing spotless lambs and spilling animal blood for forgiveness, that was foretelling about what God would do, the truth of it was Jesus the Lamb of God, and the shedding of His blood. thats How the law was a schoolmaster, it was teaching them about the Gospel Long before it came to earth. forgivness through the Blood of the Lamb, a perfect male animal...foretelling of Jesus.

its all that way, the Law is the Gospel, only it is ceiled through the perception of sinners to whom it was Given. the Gospel comes to those given a new perception of righteousness and the Love God has given for us. even things Like Isaacs brtih Miraculously is a foretelling or a pattern of what God was really going to do. from the very foirst time God promised through His seed all nations would be blessed...it is speaking of Jesus. ever notice How important geneology is in the Bible? and that the main geneology kept track of is the geneology of those who were in the descendant Line of Jesus the Messiah? theres a reason for that, he is the seed sent to bless all the earth.


read Hebrews 8 and 9, the first covenant is a shadow of what the true covenant is and would be. things Like israles promised land, again a shadow of the true Promised Land eternal Life. the first things are a prophecy of what came with Jesus, a copy of the reality. the priests were a pattern of Jesus, the sacrificuial Lamb a pattern of Jesus, sacfrifice of Blood for forgivness a pattern of Jesus sacrifice, God telling abran to sacrifice His only son, a patter of what God would do...it goes on and on. the covenant didnt change, we change through receiving the spirit and the covenant is shown in truth, in the Gospel.

the first was never designed to do what was done , but to foreshado it and lay the faoundation of the Law, because without Law there is no sin, and without sin there is No forgivness. No need for a savior what is written of old, teaches what is in the new, and what is in the new, reveals what is really in the Old.

the Law is a good thing.




 
Jun 1, 2016
5,032
120
0
#12
This covenant is to the Israel in the flesh and the sign is circumcision, Genesis 17:7, with verse 19 naming Isaac and his offspring as those the everlasting covenant will be established.

"This covenant is to the Israel in the flesh and the sign is circumcision, Genesis 17:7, with verse 19 naming Isaac and his offspring as those the everlasting covenant will be established. "

galatians 3 " Even as
Abraham
believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7Know ye therefore that
they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
And
the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith,
preached before the gospel unto Abraham, <<<
saying,
In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham."[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]

I think you are Not grasping That the Promise made to Abraham, is to Abraham " and His seed. Those who are Faith, Not those who are of the Law, as you read on in what He is explaining what this Means

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


to see what Paul is saying there. first He is revealing " When God said to Abraham " in thee all nations of the earth shall Be blessed." He was actually foretelling the Gospel , which would give the spirit to the Gentiles. which paul establishes " with foreknowledge that God would justify the Heathen by Faith" and to add " Thise who are of Faith, are the Children of Abraham, and that it is actually NOT those who are of the Mosiac Law because the Law is not of Faith. Paul is talking about the covenant Made at Horeb Between God, and the descendants of abram, with Moses as its Mediator.

the covenant Promise to Abraham, was made before the Law was Given, and 430 Years Before the covenant at Horeb Was Made Between His descendants who would be delivered from Egypt. this covenant promise is fulfilled When God sends Moses to deliver them. its the covenant at Horeb that is Based On the Law of Moses, it is a separatist Law, separating Hebrews ( Abrahams Descendants referred to in Genesis 15....Paul continues on.

Now >
to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.< He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to >thy seed, which is Christ.< And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed >before of God in Christ, < the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make >the promise <of none effect. 18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise."


The covenant Of Christ, was Made BEFORE the Law of Moses was Given, or the covenant was Made between God, Moses and Israel.

Heres where the covenants Begin to part

the covenant with the seed of abram.

And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him. 13And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

14And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. 15And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. 16But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces."


Note that the covenant presided over By Moses Given at Horeb " God appears as a pillar of darkened smoke, and Blazing fire" infact He leads them through the deasert with His appearance as a pillar of smoke and fire. this covenant is to Abram and His earthly descendants. The Old covenant Between God and the Israel of the earth. The temporal Kingdom.Then Later God re Names abram Abraham

And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2
And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,4As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of >many nations. < 5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6
And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."


then you see there the "resurrection" covenant beginning to show. Abraham is Given a new Name, and a better Promise One that is eternal. Notice the first Promise concerning those in Egypt, He says " you will go rest with Your fathers" signifying, eternal Life is not available in the covenant Made at Horeb to abrams descendants. eternal Life comes in when Abraham is named and God says " as For Me this is my covenant with you..... and starts talking of the seed which is Christ.


Jesus is opresent all through the Bible. even then He is Being talked of He is the " seed of Abraham" to whom the promises are made.




. this covenant begins to separate from " in thy seed all nations of the earth will be blessed which is the Faith in Christ, the seed of Abraham which paul makes Ckear as He continues.







Here Paul as He says elsewhere, is saying that what was said to Abraham, was a foretelling of the Gospel. Because as Paul Goes On explaining "
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
1,689
17
38
#13
it is a separatist Law, separating Hebrews ( Abrahams Descendants referred to in Genesis 15....Paul continues on.

Numbers 15:15-16, “One law is for you of the assembly and for the stranger who sojourns with you – a law forever throughout your generations. As you are, so is the stranger before יהוה. One Torah and one right-ruling is for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.”



Exodus 12:47-49, “All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the Passover to יהוה, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. One law shall be to him that is nativeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourns among you.”



 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
1,689
17
38
#14
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalms 105:6-10, “O seed of Aḇraham His servant, Children of Ya‛aqoḇ, His chosen ones! He is [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]our Strength; His right-rulings are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, The Word He commanded, for a thousand generations, The covenant He made with Aḇraham, And His oath to Yitsḥaq, And established it to Ya‛aqoḇ for a law, To Yisra’yl – an everlasting covenant.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalms 105:6-10, “O seed of Aḇraham His servant, Children of Ya‛aqoḇ, His chosen ones! He is [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]our Strength; His right-rulings are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, The Word He commanded, for a thousand generations,

The covenant He made with Aḇraham,

And His oath to Yitsḥaq,

And established it to Ya‛aqoḇ for a law,

To Yisra’
yl – an everlasting covenant.
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
1,689
17
38
#15
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalms 118:19-22, “Open to me the gates of righteousness; I enter through them, I thank Yah. This is the gate of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[FONT=Times New Roman, serif], The righteous enter through it. I thank You, For You have answered me, And have become my salvation. The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief corner-stone.”[/FONT][/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 10:9, “I am the door. Whoever enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and shall go out and find pasture.”[/FONT]


“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]door” is word #2374 - thura: a door, Original Word: θύρα, ας, ἡ, Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine, Transliteration: thura, Phonetic Spelling: (thoo'-rah), Short Definition: a door, opportunity, Definition: (a) a door, (b) met: an opportunity.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 7:13-14, “Enter in through the narrow gate! Because the gate is wide – and the way is broad – that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter in through it. Because the gate is narrow and the way is hard pressed which leads to life, and there are few who find it.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 7:16-17, “Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching, whether it comes from YHWH, or whether I am speaking of My own authority.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

[/FONT]
 
Feb 7, 2017
323
35
28
#16
who is Israel? and why is Israel special to God?
Israel, by themselves, aren't (and never were) a special people. It is a people like either one:


  • "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt." (Deut 7.6-8).
  • "Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people." (Deut 9.5,6).

Note that was the Eternal One who did them a special people. It's the presence of Jesus in somebody that do them special.