The Gross Error of Limited Atonement

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,461
390
83
#1
WHAT CALVINISTS BELIEVE
Calvinists mistakenly believe that they alone understand, preach and teach pure Bible truth. Yet they promote the gross error of limited atonement, and their whole theology rests on this false teaching. Once this error is recognized and exposed, Five Point Calvinism falls apart completely.

What is limited atonement? We will let the Calvinists inform us themselves as to what this erroneous doctrine means:

(A) JOHN CALVIN (famous Reformer)
It is often stated—and with considerable propriety—that Calvin did not write an explicit treatment concerning the extent of the atonement, in fact did not deal with this precise issue in the terms to which Reformed theology has been accustomed. It must be owned, of course, that the question had received some attention before Calvin. Notably Gottschalk in the ninth century had given express support to definite atonement and the scholastics had discussed the topic and advanced a partial resolution in asserting that Christ’s death was “sufficient for all men and efficient for the elect.” Calvin alludes to and endorses this distinction but views it as insufficient for a proper analysis of 1 John 2:2. Nevertheless a full discussion of the scope of the atonement is not found in Calvin’s writings, and the assessment of his position in this area has been varied.”
http://www.apuritansmind.com/arminianism/john-calvins-view-of-limited-atonement/

So Calvin should not really be blamed for this erroneous doctrine.

(B) C. H. SPURGEON (famous preacher)
Spurgeon strongly denied the idea that Christ died for all men: “If it were Christ’s intention to save all men, how deplorably has He been disappointed!” He added: “Some insist that Christ died for everybody. Why, then, are not all men saved? Because all men will not believe? That is to say that believing is necessary in order to make the blood of Christ efficacious for redemption. We hold that to be a great lie.”’
Charles Spurgeon on Calvinism — Definite Atonement

Spurgeon should have known better, since repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ are the conditions for salvation (Acts 20:21). And you will find that preached in many of Spurgeon’s sermons. So self-contradiction is evident.

(C) R. L. DABNEY (famous theologian)
‘I repeat, this notion [of comparing expiation to pieces of money distributed out of a bag] is utterly false as applied to Christ's expiation, because it is a divine act. It is indivisible, inexhaustible, sufficient in itself to cover the guilt of all the sins that will ever be committed on earth. This is the blessed sense in which the Apostle John says (1st Epistle ii. 2): "Christ is the propitiation (the same word as expiation) for the sins of the whole world.... But we cannot admit that Christ died as fully and in the same sense for Judas as he did for Saul of Tarsus. Here we are bound to assert that, while the expiation is infinite, redemption is particular."’
Calvinism Soteriology Topics

Dabney honestly admitted that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, but could not bring himself to state the obvious and logical conclusion – that there is no such thing as limited atonement. That it is simply false doctrine dressed up in the garb of humanistic reasoning.

(D) CALVINIST CORNER WEBSITE (dedicated to Calvinism)
“Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect.”
https://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

Did you notice the contradiction within that statement? If “Jesus only bore the sins of the elect” how could His atonement be “sufficient for all”? And how could Isaiah 53:6 be ignored?
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

SCRIPTURE REFUTES AND REPUDIATES LIMITED ATONEMENT


For all Christians, the ultimate authority is the Word of God, so we should not only look at Scripture, but believe what it says without quibbling and/or twisting the Word. And after reading these Scriptures Calvinists should rend their hearts as well as their garments.

1. GOD’S SALVATION (JESUS) IS FOR ALL PEOPLE
For mine eyes have seen thy salvation [Yahshua = Jesus = God is salvation], Which thou hast prepared before the face [so as to look into the face, in the presence] of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. (Luke 2:30-32, the prophetic words of Simeon upon seeing Christ).

2. JOHN THE BAPTIZER’S WITNESS: SO THAT ALL MEN MIGHT BELIEVE
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. (John 1:6,7).

3. THE LAMB OF GOD TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29)

4. “WHOSOEVER” MEANS ANYONE AND EVERYONE
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.(John 3:15)

5. “THE WORLD” MEANS THE WORLD OF HUMANITY
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

6. THE WHOLE WORLD COULD BE SAVED (if all would obey the Gospel)
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:17)

7. CHRIST: “THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD”
And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world. (John 4:42).

8. THE “BREAD OF GOD” FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD
For the bread of God is [Christ] he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. (John 6:33).

9. THE “LIVING BREAD” FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (John 6:51).

10. JESUS IS THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life... I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness (John 8:12; 12:46).

11. ANY MAN MAY BE SAVED THROUGH CHRIST
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. (John 10:9)

12. THE CRUCIFIED CHRIST TO DRAW ALL MEN UNTO HIMSELF
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12:32)

13. THE FREE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE FOR ALL MEN
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life... For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 5:18;6:23)

14. WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Rom 10:12,13).

15. THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH REQUIRED FROM ALL NATIONS
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith (Rom 16:25,26)

16. ALL MEN EVERYWHERE COMMANDED TO REPENT
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent (Acts 17:30)

17. GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim 2:3,4)

18. CHRIST JESUS GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (1 Tim 2:5,6)

19. JESUS EXPERIENCED DEATH FOR EVERY MAN
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Heb 2:9)

20. GOD WANTS NONE TO PERISH BUT ALL TO COME TO REPENTANCE
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9)

21. CHRIST: THE PROPITIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:1, 2).
 
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maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
7,401
507
113
#2
I think it's an error...

but I don't think it that gross.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,461
390
83
#3
I think it's an error...

but I don't think it that gross.
So you don't think a teaching which makes God and Christ liars, and contradicts Bible truth is "gross error"? I wonder what would really disturb you when the salvation of souls is at stake?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
8,901
262
83
#4
Well, first, if you want to refer about the limited atonement, you should refer to its definition in official documents, not to put together "famous preachers" sayings.

Second, I am not sure why, if this one point is wrong, other points must fall apart completely. You did not prove it by anything.

Third, the ultimate authority for Christians is not the Bible, but God. (I know its hard for you, the KJV Only, to accept).

Fourth, your attack on the limited atonement stands on various verses using the word "all" or "world", which is nothing new and Calvinists have very good responses to that.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
4,732
62
48
#5
Third, the ultimate authority for Christians is not the Bible, but God. (I know its hard for you, the KJV Only, to accept).
How do you know not to commit adultery? Oh yes, the Bible tells me so.
How do you know how the Church body should conduct itself? Oh yes, the Bible tells me so.
How do you know Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again? Oh yes, the Bible tells me so.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
8,901
262
83
#6
How do you know not to commit adultery? Oh yes, the Bible tells me so.
How do you know how the Church body should conduct itself? Oh yes, the Bible tells me so.
How do you know Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again? Oh yes, the Bible tells me so.
Good, its a useful book.

But I am a little suspicious that you would know that adultery is wrong even without Bible telling you so.
 
Jul 23, 2017
879
27
0
#7
(B) C. H. SPURGEON (famous preacher)
Spurgeon strongly denied the idea that Christ died for all men: “If it were Christ’s intention to save all men, how deplorably has He been disappointed!” He added: “Some insist that Christ died for everybody. Why, then, are not all men saved? Because all men will not believe? That is to say that believing is necessary in order to make the blood of Christ efficacious for redemption. We hold that to be a great lie.”’
Charles Spurgeon on Calvinism — Definite Atonement
this was his mistake. he didnt even realize that believing is indeed necessary in order to make the blood of Christ efficacious. just like in the old testament all the animal sacrifices didnt matter if u didnt have humbleness and faith.

aint it strange how someone like that can miss a plain truth of scripture?
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
3,430
254
0
#8
this was his mistake. he didnt even realize that believing is indeed necessary in order to make the blood of Christ efficacious. just like in the old testament all the animal sacrifices didnt matter if u didnt have humbleness and faith.

aint it strange how someone like that can miss a plain truth of scripture?
it's my belief Spurgeon was talking about believing as a work one must do.
believing is necessary, it's just not something we can take credit for.

however, i believe i could be wrong, though having read a great many of his sermons, i think i might be right. :p
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
8,901
262
83
#9
I do not know why, but I somehow never could get to like Spurgeon. I tried several times, but no...
 
P

PHart

Guest
#11
it's my belief Spurgeon was talking about believing as a work one must do.
believing is necessary, it's just not something we can take credit for.
Nobody can, but that hardly means we don't have to do that. It's not listed in the things that Paul said can not justify. He directly contrasts works that can not justify and believing which does. But for some weird reason, believing jumped over to the side of works in the church. So now, if you talk about YOU having to believe to be saved you are promoting a works gospel. How foolish!

Calvinism is probably the worst thing that ever happened to the body of Christ. At best, it's the premier example of over thinking the gospel. At worst, it has given countless souls the itching ear doctrines they crave to think that God purposely creating some to be believers and others to be unbelievers (supposedly) makes it so the believers are 'once saved, always saved', despite the way they choose to live their lives.

It's so bad now that it is believed by many that even a return to unbelief can not change the fact that God created you to be saved. It's been a steady decline downward from Calvin to now. A sad, steady decline. I think it's a sign that we are at the end of the age.
 
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Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
1,032
72
48
67
#12
WHAT CALVINISTS BELIEVE
Calvinists mistakenly believe that they alone understand, preach and teach pure Bible truth. Yet they promote the gross error of limited atonement, and their whole theology rests on this false teaching.
Limited atonement is the belief that Jesus only died for the elect, right? And Unlimited atonement is the belief that Jesus died for all, but that His death is not effectual until a person receives Him by faith.

Jesus died for all, but not all accept Him. We have free will to accept Him or not, and those who do accept Him are called "elect". Why? Because God's vision goes beyond the limits of the Universe. He gives us freedom of choice, but He knows beforehand what our choices will be.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
5,585
117
63
#13
WHAT CALVINISTS BELIEVE
Calvinists mistakenly believe that they alone understand, preach and teach pure Bible truth. Yet they promote the gross error of limited atonement, and their whole theology rests on this false teaching. Once this error is recognized and exposed, Five Point Calvinism falls apart completely.

What is limited atonement? We will let the Calvinists inform us themselves as to what this erroneous doctrine means:

(A) JOHN CALVIN (famous Reformer)
It is often stated—and with considerable propriety—that Calvin did not write an explicit treatment concerning the extent of the atonement, in fact did not deal with this precise issue in the terms to which Reformed theology has been accustomed. It must be owned, of course, that the question had received some attention before Calvin. Notably Gottschalk in the ninth century had given express support to definite atonement and the scholastics had discussed the topic and advanced a partial resolution in asserting that Christ’s death was “sufficient for all men and efficient for the elect.” Calvin alludes to and endorses this distinction but views it as insufficient for a proper analysis of 1 John 2:2. Nevertheless a full discussion of the scope of the atonement is not found in Calvin’s writings, and the assessment of his position in this area has been varied.”
http://www.apuritansmind.com/arminianism/john-calvins-view-of-limited-atonement/

So Calvin should not really be blamed for this erroneous doctrine.

(B) C. H. SPURGEON (famous preacher)
Spurgeon strongly denied the idea that Christ died for all men: “If it were Christ’s intention to save all men, how deplorably has He been disappointed!” He added: “Some insist that Christ died for everybody. Why, then, are not all men saved? Because all men will not believe? That is to say that believing is necessary in order to make the blood of Christ efficacious for redemption. We hold that to be a great lie.”’
Charles Spurgeon on Calvinism — Definite Atonement

Spurgeon should have known better, since repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ are the conditions for salvation (Acts 20:21). And you will find that preached in many of Spurgeon’s sermons. So self-contradiction is evident.

(C) R. L. DABNEY (famous theologian)
‘I repeat, this notion [of comparing expiation to pieces of money distributed out of a bag] is utterly false as applied to Christ's expiation, because it is a divine act. It is indivisible, inexhaustible, sufficient in itself to cover the guilt of all the sins that will ever be committed on earth. This is the blessed sense in which the Apostle John says (1st Epistle ii. 2): "Christ is the propitiation (the same word as expiation) for the sins of the whole world.... But we cannot admit that Christ died as fully and in the same sense for Judas as he did for Saul of Tarsus. Here we are bound to assert that, while the expiation is infinite, redemption is particular."’
Calvinism Soteriology Topics

Dabney honestly admitted that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, but could not bring himself to state the obvious and logical conclusion – that there is no such thing as limited atonement. That it is simply false doctrine dressed up in the garb of humanistic reasoning.

(D) CALVINIST CORNER WEBSITE (dedicated to Calvinism)
“Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect.”
https://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

Did you notice the contradiction within that statement? If “Jesus only bore the sins of the elect” how could His atonement be “sufficient for all”? And how could Isaiah 53:6 be ignored?
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

SCRIPTURE REFUTES AND REPUDIATES LIMITED ATONEMENT


For all Christians, the ultimate authority is the Word of God, so we should not only look at Scripture, but believe what it says without quibbling and/or twisting the Word. And after reading these Scriptures Calvinists should rend their hearts as well as their garments.

1. GOD’S SALVATION (JESUS) IS FOR ALL PEOPLE
For mine eyes have seen thy salvation [Yahshua = Jesus = God is salvation], Which thou hast prepared before the face [so as to look into the face, in the presence] of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. (Luke 2:30-32, the prophetic words of Simeon upon seeing Christ).

2. JOHN THE BAPTIZER’S WITNESS: SO THAT ALL MEN MIGHT BELIEVE
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. (John 1:6,7).

3. THE LAMB OF GOD TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29)

4. “WHOSOEVER” MEANS ANYONE AND EVERYONE
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.(John 3:15)

5. “THE WORLD” MEANS THE WORLD OF HUMANITY
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

6. THE WHOLE WORLD COULD BE SAVED (if all would obey the Gospel)
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:17)

7. CHRIST: “THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD”
And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world. (John 4:42).

8. THE “BREAD OF GOD” FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD
For the bread of God is [Christ] he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. (John 6:33).

9. THE “LIVING BREAD” FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (John 6:51).

10. JESUS IS THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life... I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness (John 8:12; 12:46).

11. ANY MAN MAY BE SAVED THROUGH CHRIST
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. (John 10:9)

12. THE CRUCIFIED CHRIST TO DRAW ALL MEN UNTO HIMSELF
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12:32)

13. THE FREE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE FOR ALL MEN
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life... For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 5:18;6:23)

14. WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Rom 10:12,13).

15. THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH REQUIRED FROM ALL NATIONS
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith (Rom 16:25,26)

16. ALL MEN EVERYWHERE COMMANDED TO REPENT
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent (Acts 17:30)

17. GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim 2:3,4)

18. CHRIST JESUS GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (1 Tim 2:5,6)

19. JESUS EXPERIENCED DEATH FOR EVERY MAN
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Heb 2:9)

20. GOD WANTS NONE TO PERISH BUT ALL TO COME TO REPENTANCE
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9)

21. CHRIST: THE PROPITIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:1, 2).

Calvin is dead.

Paul said. What do we have that we have not freely received . and if we have received the gift of eternal why would we say we have not received it freely with no cost on our behalf ? It God the Potter that makes one different from another.



We know the word "all" can be defined it two ways .

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

The key is to the limited, as to whose names written that will be found in the lambs book of life (the elect)... is the word “many “.

A few examples.....

Matthew 14:36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as
many as touched were made "perfectly whole".

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for
many.

Mark 6:56 And whithersoever he entered, into villages, or cities, or country, they laid the sick in the streets, and besought him that they might touch if it were but the border of his garment: and as
many as touched him were made whole.

John 8:30 As he spake these words,
many believed on him.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as
many as thou hast given him.

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Galatians 3:27 For as
many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Corinthians 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of
many, that they may be saved.

Romans 8:14 For as
many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
5,585
117
63
#14
Limited atonement is the belief that Jesus only died for the elect, right? And Unlimited atonement is the belief that Jesus died for all, but that His death is not effectual until a person receives Him by faith.

Jesus died for all, but not all accept Him. We have free will to accept Him or not, and those who do accept Him are called "elect". Why? Because God's vision goes beyond the limits of the Universe. He gives us freedom of choice, but He knows beforehand what our choices will be.

It is by His will that works in us to both will and do his good purpose that we can accept Him. Free will, the food the disciples knew not of does not come from the imagination of ones heart, human dead faith .

The faith of Christ our new faith, which comes from hearing God and not hearing the our imaginations of the heart. He chose us from the foundation of the world, not us chose Him. We are the new creation, in Christ, of Christ. .

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
4,732
62
48
#15
Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
One is not known of God until after one has believed upon the Lord Jesus Christ and is saved.
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
2,941
226
63
Florida
#16
Well, first, if you want to refer about the limited atonement, you should refer to its definition in official documents, not to put together "famous preachers" sayings.

Second, I am not sure why, if this one point is wrong, other points must fall apart completely. You did not prove it by anything.

Third, the ultimate authority for Christians is not the Bible, but God. (I know its hard for you, the KJV Only, to accept).

Fourth, your attack on the limited atonement stands on various verses using the word "all" or "world", which is nothing new and Calvinists have very good responses to that.

uh

'scuse me there, but does God appear to you and tell you all about Himself apart from the Bible?

when someone makes a Bible translation of equal import as the original and inspired writers, it truly boggles the mind as to how they can then continue to say that the Bible is not the final authority; God is

file under: contradiction

why oh why is a debate in here referred to as an attack?

this is a discussion forum. people will disagree. so childish
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
7,801
331
83
#17
What I don't understand is that it is the people who think it takes their work and belief to get into Heaven that also say that limited atonement is a lie.

If the Atonement is not limited then everyone is saved regardless of their work or belief.

Why is this so hard to understand? Do we just not understand what Atonement is???

Apparently we need a discussion on the meanings for 'sufficient' and 'efficacious' as well.
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
2,941
226
63
Florida
#18
Limited atonement is the belief that Jesus only died for the elect, right? And Unlimited atonement is the belief that Jesus died for all, but that His death is not effectual until a person receives Him by faith.

Jesus died for all, but not all accept Him. We have free will to accept Him or not, and those who do accept Him are called "elect". Why? Because God's vision goes beyond the limits of the Universe. He gives us freedom of choice, but He knows beforehand what our choices will be.
you got this one!

 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#19
What I don't understand is that it is the people who think it takes their work and belief to get into Heaven that also say that limited atonement is a lie.

If the Atonement is not limited then everyone is saved regardless of their work or belief.

Why is this so hard to understand? Do we just not understand what Atonement is???

Apparently we need a discussion on the meanings for 'sufficient' and 'efficacious' as well.
Christ died for all, but His blood is only imputed to those that believe.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
5,585
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#20
One is not known of God until after one has believed upon the Lord Jesus Christ and is saved.
I think it is how we define faith .Where it comes from and who does it belong to? Some do not attribute faith to God. They say he needs none, he is God.

He is our faithful Creator

Without the faith of Christ working in us to both will and do His good pleasure no one could believe God.(imputed faith)

One cannot believe, exercise, or work faith, unless he first give us His faith to make it possible (our first love) . Faith is the substance of things not seen.

Human faith coming from the imaginations of one own deceitful heart which is considered dead in its trespasses and sin cannot provide a hope that could please God. with human faith we cannot see past the tip of our nose. Scriptures defines it as "no faith".

God destroyed the world with a flood the first time (that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.) Human faith at its best.

Gen 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

What is some do not believe the word of God as God's source of faith be which we can believe Him . Will unbelief, no faith, makes his source of faith without effect. To effect is to work.

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.Rom 3:3