The Gross Error of Limited Atonement

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Johnny_B

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Mar 18, 2017
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Well first of all a sinner must ENTER the Kingdom of God in order to SEE the Kingdom of God. It is similar to someone standing outside a museum. He would see absolutely nothing unless he first entered into the museum through the front door.

So the real question is how does a sinner enter into the Kingdom of God? And the answer is found in Scripture (Acts 2:34-41), and it is through repentance and faith in the one who is both Lord and Christ. And after sinners become saints by receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, they can actually see the Kingdom of God:

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. [THIS IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD]

36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


37
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?


38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


39
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


40
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.


41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Amen and in verse 37 shows the work of God first, "they were pricked in thier heart" then in 39 it is revealed as to those that will repent after these, "as many as the Lord our God shal call."

The same thing happened to Lydia Acts 16:14 “Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.”

And the Scripture tell us who causes us to be born again. I Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Without being born again, you are not able to see the kingdom of God, how would you know to repent? Repentance is a kingdom pinciple.

John 6:63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life….65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.

The Spirit gives life spiritual life because we are spiritually dead, the flesh is of no help and no one comes to Jesus in repentance unless the Father grants it.
 

Bookends

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I believe in limited atonement, but not how Calvinism explains it. It's limited to those who chose Christ as their savior by faith.
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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I believe in limited atonement, but not how Calvinism explains it. It's limited to those who chose Christ as their savior by faith.
Well that is also what Calvinism says. Atonement is limited to the elect (those who have been saved). But that is not what the Bible says. Atonement is unlimited (it is for all humanity), but APPLIED to only those who obey the Gospel.
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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Amen and in verse 37 shows the work of God first, "they were pricked in thier heart" then in 39 it is revealed as to those that will repent after these, "as many as the Lord our God shal call."
Your interpretation is patently false since being pricked in their hearts (convicted and convinced) is not the same as being born again (which took place immediately thereafter). It is only when they repented and believed that they received the gift of the Holy Ghost, and it is only after the entrance of the Holy Spirit into their souls that they were born again supernaturaliy. That is what is called "the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Ghost".

As to "as many as the Lord our God shall call", since that Gospel was preached to all, it should be evident that the call went out to all also. You are implying that God selectively saved some, but that too is patently false. He desires to save all, but only those who responded to the Gospel were saved. If it were not so all Israel would have been saved when John the Baptizer preached repentance followed by Christ preaching repentance. Why? Because all Israel was chosen by God long before that. But the very fact that the majority of Israel did not get saved gives the lie to your doctrine of unconditional election.
 
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Bookends

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Well that is also what Calvinism says. Atonement is limited to the elect (those who have been saved). But that is not what the Bible says. Atonement is unlimited (it is for all humanity), but APPLIED to only those who obey the Gospel.
Then it's limited by one's disobedience to the Gospel. It's offered to all and is what I believe, which goes against Calvinism, but not all will receive it therefore it can't be unlimited. It's man who makes it limited, not God. If Atonement was fully unlimited then wouldn't that be universalism, everyone gets to heaven?
 
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Well that is also what Calvinism says. Atonement is limited to the elect (those who have been saved). But that is not what the Bible says. Atonement is unlimited (it is for all humanity), but APPLIED to only those who obey the Gospel.
Neh 6. Christ propitiated the Father for ALL sin. It is applied to ALL men. Past,present and future.

We are justified the moment we believe. Saved and sealed.

The thing Christ did not pay for is evil or" I will be good enough." Sin is finished for all men.But NOT, " I am good enough." Unbelievers sins are paid for in full. But not their self righteous DEEDS.

Rev 20:12 New American Standard Bible

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.(works,own righteousness,evil,"I dont need you, I am good enough."
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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The thing Christ did not pay for is evil or" I will be good enough." Sin is finished for all men.But NOT, " I am good enough." Unbelievers sins are paid for in full. But not their self righteous DEEDS.
I understand that you wish to make a distinction between sin and evil deeds, or more particularly "self-righteousness" as an evil thing, but I do not believe that Scripture makes that distinction. Let's take Isa 53:6 and see what the word "iniquity" means:

Strong's Concordance
avon: iniquity, guilt, punishment for iniquity
Original Word: עָווֹן
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: avon
Phonetic Spelling: (aw-vone')
Short Definition: iniquity

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from an unused word
Definition
iniquity, guilt, punishment for iniquity

NASB Translation

blame (1), guilt (21), guilty (1), iniquities (46), iniquity (143), punishment (12), punishment for the iniquity (3), punishment for their iniquity (3).

So it can mean (a) sins, (b) the guilt arising from those sins, or (c) the punishment for the sins and the guilt.

Now let's look at Jude 15 where the words "ungodly deeds" appear, but also "hard speeches" (harsh words):

King James Bible

To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Strong's Concordance
asebeia: ungodliness, impiety
Original Word: ἀσέβεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: asebeia
Phonetic Spelling: (as-eb'-i-ah)
Short Definition: impiety, irreverence, wickedness
Definition: impiety, irreverence, ungodliness, wickedness.

So how do you exclude any of this from "sins"?
 
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So how do you exclude any of this from "sins"?
Carry on then Brother. The calvinist and the arminian have a valid argument against your theology.

Christ paid for all sin. Sin is not the issue. The Lord Jesus Christ propitiated the Father for ALL sin. Anyone/whosoever can come before Him and believe and be saved,because sin no longer veils them from God.

But the self righteous, "I am good enough" crowd will be judged by those deeds. Because SIN is finished. And if you are arguing that sin is just finished for those who believe. The calvinist and the arminian have a valid argument against you.

The Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the WHOLE world. He did not die for those who think they can measure up to His Deed.
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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The Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the WHOLE world. He did not die for those who think they can measure up to His Deed.
This is a puzzling and self-contradictory statement.

The Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the WHOLE world. "The sins" would mean all sins, all evil, all wickedness, and all iniquity. No exceptions.

He did not die for those who think they can measure up to His Deed. Since no one holds to this position (essentially equal to Christ) where did you come up with this? There were (and are people) who mistakenly believe that their own works of righteousness would qualify them for Heaven. But not one of them would claim to be as sinless or as perfect as Christ.

As to "your theology" since I have posted relevant Scriptures contextually, it is never my theology but the Bible's theology. It does not matter whether Calvinists, Arminians or any others agree or disagree. God's truth remains God's truth.
 

Johnny_B

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Mar 18, 2017
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Well that is also what Calvinism says. Atonement is limited to the elect (those who have been saved). But that is not what the Bible says. Atonement is unlimited (it is for all humanity), but APPLIED to only those who obey the Gospel.

My brother you keep making great apolgetics for limited atonement. It seems to me that where you have more of a problem is with election, not limited atonement. Because you keep explaining limited atonement, only those that obey the Gospel receive the benifits of the atonement. This is where the word grace comes in play big time. God's unmerited favor is given to those that He elects to receive salvation by the atoning work of Christ.

We are saved by the grace (unmerited favor) of God or from God, once the grace has been granted to us we then place our faith in Christ in repentance and belief, our call is according to the pleasure of His will, before creation, Ephesians 1:4-6, 11, 13 once the Father has caused us to be born again, we are in Him, we heard the Gospel of truth and repent/believe. We are spiritually dead and because God is mericful to us He made us alive in Christ and it was by nothing that we did it was all by His good pleasure of His will, why because He loved us when we were dead in trespasses and sins, again why did He do this? To show the riches of His immeasurable grace and love toward us (not the world, us the called/elect/church) in Christ, all was done as the gift of God to us, not by anything we did or could do, Ephesians 2:1, 4-5, 7-10

Ephesians 1:4-6 11, 13 even as he choseus in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.....
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,...13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Here is how the NIV translates 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Either way we were already in Him, when we heard and believed the Gospel of truth, we were made spiritually alive to respond to the Gospel of truth
in repentance and belief.

2:1, 4-5, 7-10
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins.....4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

It is all done because He loves us, He made us alive, we did not make ourselves alive in Christ, it is not our own doing, not a result of any work that we have or could of done and He prepeared this before the world was created and as Paul says about Jacob and Esau before we could do good or evil, why so that the purpose of God's election might conitnue, in Romans 9:11.

“though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls”

We do nothing to make ourselves spiritually alive, once we are spiritually alive we repent/believe it is God's gift to us, so that we can respond in repentance and belief. As recorded in Acts the men were cut to the heart or as it was recorded with Lydia, the Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what Paul was saying and Acts 13:48

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

You have limited atonement down, it is election and the word grace (unmerited favor) that seem to be the stumbling stone for you. This is not a matter of salvation, you do not have to believe in the Doctrines of Grace to be saved. For me once I understood it all, my sinful nature, God holiness, His glorious grace and mercy, it caused me to bow in worship of the Lord for His wonderful salvation towards me I have a very checkered past.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
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N6
I was reading a book on the nature of God, called "The Beauty of God's Holiness" while reading the Scriptures on the sinful nature of man, after reading the Scriptures on God's holiness and majesty that it hit me. Just a small testimony as to God's mercy and grace in my life.
 
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I am espousing that we don't receive the gift of salvation except through Jesus Christ - we cannot come to God except by Jesus Christ . . . I believe that is what scripture repeatedly says - we must believe.

You must be born again . . . what does that mean? Does it mean you must be saved to see the kingdom of heaven? How does one get saved? How is one born from above? How is one born of the Spirit?

He that believes on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) John 7:38,39

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12,13)

This new creation, created in you is Spirit - it was not created by the blood of men, nor by the sexual desires of the flesh, nor by man's will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure but because of God's plan and His purposes - to give eternal life through Christ. When I say man has a choice - it is not a choice in creating that Spirit within, i.e. the new birth, the new creation - man's choice is to obey the gospel, the good news . . . Jesus Christ and him crucified - raised to eternal life giving eternal life to those who believe in him.
But ppl don't reach out to receive this gift. I know, I know, you are now thinking that 'God does not create and save robots'. We're not talking about robots, but those who are spiritually dead.

When someone has a heart attack and dies, to remain consistent within the confines of your theology, the nurses would rush in, followed by the doctor, and he would start yelling "Get up! I said, get up!!" Those who choose of their own volition to come back to life live, and those who refuse to do so, remain dead. But within the confines of our theology, the nurses would rush in and start CPR, followed by the doctor coming in and having them administer the necessary drugs to stimulate the heart. Did the person receive CPR? Yes. And I am well aware that this analogy falls woefully short, as mnay more die after receiving CPR than those who survive. But the point I am making is that God has to quicken those who are dead in sins to life BEFORE they can respond.

When I gave you the analogy of Ezekiel 37, you said that ppl can hear, see, &c. But that's espousing mental assent. God, and only God, can quicken the dead spirit to life.
 
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Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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If Atonement was fully unlimited then wouldn't that be universalism, everyone gets to heaven?
Not at all. The meaning of unlimited atonement is that Christ took upon Himself the sins of the whole world, and paid the penalty for those sins in full. But that does not guarantee AUTOMATIC salvation for humanity. That would be Universalism, with God automatically applying the atonement to all, whether they believed the Gospel or not.

Hence the need for the preaching of the Gospel. When the Gospel is preached, sinners are convicted and convinced. But not all will obey the Gospel, repent, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. Therefore the benefit of atonement cannot be applied to them. Repentance and faith are the conditions required for salvation. But that does not change the fact about what was accomplished on the Cross.

Calvinists apply human reasoning to this, and claim that the finished work of Christ could not be "perfect" unless it guaranteed the salvation of all for whom Christ died. They also claim that God has decreed the salvation of some and the damnation of others. But they simply forget that not all will turn to Christ by faith, because some love darkness rather than light (John 3:19). It is not for us to claim that atonement is limited in any way. But we also know that the application of the atonement is only for those who receive Christ by faith.
 
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yes this is something to consider. makes no sense
This exposes man's rebellion and wickedness.

God commanded the Jews to keep the Law and many died when they failed to keep it.

We are commanded to be holy, even as He is holy. None of us can be that holy, in and of ourselves.
 
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These two verses do not mean that God "gives" repentance.
God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.[Acts 5:31]

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”[Acts 18:11]

Neither of those two verses supports this whatsoever.

And as for Pharaoh? No he could not have repented. God told Moses He would harden his heart. You have man thwarting God's will.

Its obvious we're at an impasse and further discussion would be futile.

Good day my Sister.
 
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I believe in limited atonement, but not how Calvinism explains it. It's limited to those who chose Christ as their savior by faith.
Well, seeing that there are NONE who seek God, you've presented yourself with quite the conundrum.

Look at it like this. In your schema, the Christ died for all men equally. You present the gospel to 'Joe' and 'Jeff' and 'Jeff' is saved, and 'Joe' rejects all the way until his death. Now, seeing that the Christ died for both equally, its not His cross and resurrection that procured 'Jeff's' salvation, but 'Jeff' doing his part. 'Joe' could have been saved if he had only done his part, but by golly he wouldn't.

You have ripped salvation out of God's hand and placed it in man's. Kudos!
 

Johnny_B

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Mar 18, 2017
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Your interpretation is patently false since being pricked in their hearts (convicted and convinced) is not the same as being born again (which took place immediately thereafter). It is only when they repented and believed that they received the gift of the Holy Ghost, and it is only after the entrance of the Holy Spirit into their souls that they were born again supernaturaliy. That is what is called "the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Ghost".

As to "as many as the Lord our God shall call", since that Gospel was preached to all, it should be evident that the call went out to all also. You are implying that God selectively saved some, but that too is patently false. He desires to save all, but only those who responded to the Gospel were saved. If it were not so all Israel would have been saved when John the Baptizer preached repentance followed by Christ preaching repentance. Why? Because all Israel was chosen by God long before that. But the very fact that the majority of Israel did not get saved gives the lie to your doctrine of unconditional election.

First of all I want to thank you for calling out my error, I said it wrong or type it wrong so again thank you.

I answered most of this in the post below #510, which I would like to read your responce on it brother.


Do you really want to use the lie of my doctrine? When Scripture show that all Israel is not all children of God, you really need to concider the full council of God before you start call doctrines lies. As far as Irael being called/elect yes they were as a people and they are a good example of how election works. There is a general call to all Israel but they are not all saved and Paul tell us why in Romans 9:6-8 “But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.”

The children of promise are the elect, the children of God, as I explained in the post numbered #510 we are in Chirst when we hear the word of truth, the Gospel of our salvation, to be in Christ and see the kingdom to know the kingdon
principle of repentance and belief. Ephesians 1:13 “In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”

Here is what happens, we are born again by water and the Spirit, I do not want to go through all it takes to show how the word is the water, but James tell us that we are born again by His own will or He has granted that the Spirit give us life (as in John 6:63) from the word in James 1:18 “Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”

Also notice that when we believe we are sealed by the promised Spirit, so when the word and Spirit come together and we believe we are sealed. The born again process is by the word and the Spirit and being born again we repent/believe and are sealed. But it is all by His own will, not are will. It is God's desire that all men be saved, but it is His will that the elect be saved. He always acomplishes His will, because it is of His good pleasure to save those He has call to Himself.

N6 you left out the most important part of verse 5 of chapter 3 in the book of Titus and verse 4 that sets it up, verses 4-7 are a beautiful explaination of how the Lord saves us.
“But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,7 so that being justifiedby his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

He saves us, not by any righteous thing we do which include repenting or believing which are works of righteousness, they do not save us He does. He poured it out on us, then being justified by His grace we become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. God initiates, we respond in repentance/belief/faith. He regenerates, we respond.

I am so glad that that last 25 years I have gone to Churches that teach the Bible verse by verse, book by book through the Bible so that I have been taught the full council of God.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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u just contradicted urself.
look again

u responded to brother Nehemiah saying that God wants all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth by saying yes that is His wish but He knows that that cannot be.
That is true

but then later u say its true God commands everyone to repent
But He knows all will not repent. They are unwilling, and unable because they are dead in sin,,

and that Christ does not effectively draw everyone to Him
That is true,

and He didn't effectively die for all.
Also true otherwise all would be saved,

so if its His wish as u say that all will be saved, then He would of died for all, and would draw all, since u guys teach no one can resist God's will.
If they could not resist God's will they would all be saved. But they are not.

You would be wise not to tell people 'what they teach'.

so thats a contradiction.
Any contradiction is yours, not mine.
 
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valiant

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Mar 22, 2015
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Not at all. The meaning of unlimited atonement is that Christ took upon Himself the sins of the whole world, and paid the penalty for those sins in full. But that does not guarantee AUTOMATIC salvation for humanity. That would be Universalism, with God automatically applying the atonement to all, whether they believed the Gospel or not.
Atonement that is not applied is nonsense. Atonement is only given to those who are atoned for. For the rest there is no atonement,

Hence the need for the preaching of the Gospel. When the Gospel is preached, sinners are convicted and convinced. But not all will obey the Gospel, repent, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. Therefore the benefit of atonement cannot be applied to them.
Therefore they are not atoned for.


Repentance and faith are the conditions required for salvation. But that does not change the fact about what was accomplished on the Cross.
That Christ died for the sins of all who believe.

Calvinists apply human reasoning to this
What other reasonjng could they apply? You also supply human reasoning


, and claim that the finished work of Christ could not be "perfect" unless it guaranteed the salvation of all for whom Christ died.
I have never heard this, It is your misrepresentation of Calvinism. The finished work of Christ IS perfect. But it applies only to those who believe.


They also claim that God has decreed the salvation of some and the damnation of others.
Your usual misrepresentation. All Calvinists do NOT teach this

But they simply forget that not all will turn to Christ by faith, because some love darkness rather than light (John 3:19).
How do they forget it.? They SAY it.

It is not for us to claim that atonement is limited in any way. But we also know that the application of the atonement is only for those who receive Christ by faith.
So it is limited to those who believe :)The only atonement is applied atonement.
 

Bookends

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Aug 28, 2012
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Not at all. The meaning of unlimited atonement is that Christ took upon Himself the sins of the whole world, and paid the penalty for those sins in full. But that does not guarantee AUTOMATIC salvation for humanity. That would be Universalism, with God automatically applying the atonement to all, whether they believed the Gospel or not.

Hence the need for the preaching of the Gospel. When the Gospel is preached, sinners are convicted and convinced. But not all will obey the Gospel, repent, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. Therefore the benefit of atonement cannot be applied to them. Repentance and faith are the conditions required for salvation. But that does not change the fact about what was accomplished on the Cross.

Calvinists apply human reasoning to this, and claim that the finished work of Christ could not be "perfect" unless it guaranteed the salvation of all for whom Christ died. They also claim that God has decreed the salvation of some and the damnation of others. But they simply forget that not all will turn to Christ by faith, because some love darkness rather than light (John 3:19). It is not for us to claim that atonement is limited in any way. But we also know that the application of the atonement is only for those who receive Christ by faith.
I understand that, but Atonement is still limited, limited by man. I can't see why what I'm saying can't be comprehended. Atonement supplied by God is unlimited, but their is an obstacle in front of man that makes it limited, which is faith. Therefore atonement in whole isn't unlimited.

Is there anyone here who understands what I'm getting at?