The Heresy of Perfectionism

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May 2, 2011
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ON CESSATIONISM - (Continued)

Finally, Warfield the exegete, beyond his failure to engage the theological issues above,
failed even to acquaint himself with the brief, but significant passages of Scripture which
in and of themselves taught the continuation of the charismata. It is because Warfield is
first and foremost the biblicist, and because he claims to have structured his whole
polemic on “two legs,” an investigation into history and scripture, that his omission is so
glaring and so disappointing.

D. New Testament Passages Reiterating the Pattern of Continuing
Charismata during the Time of Christ’s Present Exaltation until the
End of the Age


The following are a series of paraphrases of Scriptures which restate the role of the
charismata in the eschatological framework outlined above: the charismata continue
during this age to minister toward the (as yet unrealized) goal of complete maturity of
the church. Again, expressed biblically, the divine “Spirit” is presented in Scripture as
associated primarily and essentially performing charismatic operations. The exegetical
support for these interpretive paraphrases have been worked out in the dissertation.

1. I Corinthians 1:4-8 “I always thank God for you because of God’s grace (including the
whole range of charismata) because in every way you have been enriched in him–in
every kind of speech (including prophecy) and in every kind of knowledge (including the
gift of revealed knowledge). You are doing this now exactly as (kathos) the testimony of
Christ was confirmed in you (that is, charismatically, by the apostles and or evangelists
who first demonstrated articulated the gospel to you)–with the result that you do not
now lack an,; spiritual gift during the time you are awaiting the revelation of our Lord
Jesus Christ. (The Lord) will also (not merely when the gospel first came to you, or even
only now, but will) continue to confirm/ strengthen you (in the same way as you are now
experiencing the charismata until the time you are ‘awaiting’ the end) until the end, so
that (via the strengthening and purifying charismata which generates growth and
progressive maturity) you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

2. 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 “Love never ends: it continues on into the age to come. But
wherever the charismatic operations of prophecies, tongues speaking or revealed
knowledge occur, they will be ended. Like childhood, they all represent an incomplete, yet
necessary stage of God’s eternal plan.

But when will these three (representative) gifts, i.e., the charismata generally, cease? The
eschatological principle is this: when the complete (end) arrives, at that precise point, the
incomplete will be ended. Specifically, when Christ returns at the end of this present age,
then, and not a moment before, the charismata–gifts of prophecy, tongues and revealed
knowledge here offered as examples–which are incomplete compared to the ultimate
heavenly realities they only now indicate, will all come to an end, having served their
temporary purpose.

Let us note three or four illustrations of this point.

First, when I was a baby (representing our present existence) I babbled, thought and
reasoned (i.e., the present charismata of speech and knowledge) like a baby–a necessary
and positive development to be sure–all of which would be related to what was to come.
But at adulthood (our existence in heaven), this stage is superseded by vastly greater
powers of communication, thinking and reasoning.

Second, in the present age, the charismata only serve as indirect or indistinct perceptions
of God or his will, like looking into a mirror or a photograph. But in heaven, the mirror or
photograph (the charismata) are unnecessary if we can see God ‘face to face.’ At that
point these items, which had helped preserve the somewhat distant relationship, will
have served their purpose and will be discarded, since we will have the real person before
us.

Third, in this present age, I know God, but the charismata reveal Him to me only in
glimpses and hints. But then, in heaven, I will know God (kathos) exactly as, and to the
same degree God knows me now. Of what use will be those tentative and imprecise gifts
of revealed knowledge under those conditions?

(Fourth), in this present age, faith, hope and love, all three function, but like the other
charismata, faith (which is a charism of revelation, which, if acted upon, can produce
miracles or any other aspect of God’s salvation), and hope (another gift of God which is
superseded if it results in the presence and reality of its object), will both be unnecessary
because of their ‘waiting characteristic; in heaven, the waiting win be over. By contrast,
love is greater, because, unlike faith, hope and the other charismata, love never ends.”

3. Ephesians 4:11-13 “[The ascended Christ] gave some apostles, prophets, evangelists,
and pastor/teachers (not to accredit the gospel or its bearers, but) for the perfecting of
the saints toward the work of ministry, toward the building up of the body of Christ. [But
for how long?] These gifts are distributed, in principle (vs. 7) ‘to each’ until (mechri)–an
ongoing process of distribution–the following state is attained, i.e., that we all arrive: at
the unity of the faith, at the full knowledge of the Son of God, into full, mature adulthood,
that is, to the level of stature (maturity) of the fullness of Christ.” (Note: even Paul has
not “attained” to this state [Phil 3:12]).

4. Ephesians 1:13-23 In the context of believers’ receiving “all wisdom and
understanding” (1:8) and Paul’s continued prayer for the same (1:17) and to experience
(“know”) [Christ's] incomparably great power–like that of the resurrection], Paul
describes the time frame: “In him, when you believed, you were marked with a seal, the
promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit [or first installment--the first payment of the same
to follow] guaranteeing our inheritance (described, inter alia as “incomparably great,”
etc., like resurrection power in 1:19), until (eis) the redemption of those who are God’s
possession–to the praise of his glory.” This state of affairs is active in believers and is
paralleled to the exaltation of Christ which occurs “not only in the present age, but also in
the one to come” (1:21-23, cf 2:6).

5. Ephesians 3:14-21 Paul’s prayer is that the readers may “have power through the
Spirit” that in love they “may have power together with all the saints [an explicit
universal application]… to the goal that you may be filled to the measure of the
fullness of God. Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or
imagine, according to the power that is at work within us, to Him be glory, in the church
and in Christ Jesus, throughout all generations for ever and ever. Amen.” Cf. Isa 59:21.

6. Ephesians 4:30 With Eph 1:13-23 above, the time period of the Spirit’s prophetic
presence in the believer is restated: “Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God [an allusion to
ignoring prophetic warning, e.g., Isa 63:10? cf. Eph 4:29] with whom you were sealed [an
ongoing mark of ownership and protection] until (eis) the day of redemption.”

7. Ephesians 5:15-19 In the present e,%il days (characteristic of the time of the
Messianic woes [Mt 24:9-12; 1 Tim 31 preceding the parousia, don't be drunk on wine, but
continue to "be filled with the Spirit (cf Jer 23:9; Amos 2:12; Acts 2:13,15; Lk 1:15). Speak
to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" (i.e., glossolalic singing? 1 Cor
14:13-17)--perhaps representative of the whole range of charismatic prophetic
operations to continue during these "present evil days."

8. Ephesians 6:10-20 "Be empowered (closely assoc. with "miracle/mighty work" in the
NT) in the Lord and in his mighty power... struggling against demonic forces... with sword
of Spirit--the word of God (prophecy)--and constant prayer. [Since we are in the time of
the Messianic woes that Jesus predicted about standing before magistrates, etc. I pray
that words will be given me"[divine passive] (Mtl0:19b-20 Mkl3:11–”it is not you speaking
but the Holy Spirit”).

9. Philippians 1:5-10 “Christ who has begun a good work in you will carry it on to
completion until the day of Christ Jesus. What work? sharing in God’s grace (and imitating
Paul, 3:17; 4:9–necessarily including the charismata (cf. Mt 28:20 “teaching them all that I
have commanded you”) in defending and confirming–a word in this context speaking of
charismata, signs and wonders). And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more
and more in knowledge and perception (charismata of revelation), so that y u may be
able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until (eis) the day of Christ.”

10. Colossians 1:9-12 “We have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you
with the knowledge of his will through all Spiritual wisdom and understanding (revelatory
gifts)… being strengthened with all po-er… to build spiritual maturity, looking toward
(though already provisionally experiencing) the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom
of light. Indeed we have already been brought into that kingdom.”

11. 1 Thessalonians 1:5-8 In view of the rabbi-disciple model in # 10, above, the
normative transmission of the gospel in “word and deed” in this passage. “our gospel
came to you not simply with words, but also with power (en dunamei), with the Holy Spirit
and with deep conviction…. You became imitators of us and of the Lord . . . . And so (it
follows) you yourselves became models to all the believers in Macedonia and Achaia.” The
pattern of the gospel’s normative pattern of transmission in the miraculous power of the
Spirit was carried over into a third generation–two away from Paul, i.e., those upon whom
apostolic hands would not be laid! All with the goal of building Christian maturity until the
end of this age.

12. 1 Thessalonians 5:11-23 In a strong eschatological context of the parousia Paul
encourages believers to continue edifying each other in love: “Do not put out the Spirit’s
fire [paralleled with]; do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test them and heed the
good ones, in view of the goal of being blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The One who calls you will be faithful to preserve you (using these charismata, cf. 1 Cor
1:4-81 etc.).”

13. 2 Thessalonians 1:11-12 “For which–in an ongoing process toward the goal [that You
win be counted worthy at the coming of Christ] we constantly pray for you that our God
will count you worthy and may fulfill your every good purpose and every work of faith in
power (en dunamei), so that the name of our Lord Jesus might be glorified in you and you
in him.”

14. 1 Peter 1:5 “Through faith you are being shielded by God’s power (en dunamei), until
(eis) a salvation ready to be revealed at the last time.”

15. 1 Peter 4:7-12 “The end of all things [the goal and context of this warning] is near….
Each one should use whatever spiritual gift he has received to serve others, faithfully
administering God’s grace in its various forms. If anyone speaks–as the oracles of God.”
Most commentators see this as a reference to NT prophecy. The parenesis is given
against the approaching end, with the understanding that prophecy is to be operative up
until that point.

16. 1 John 2:26-28 As an antidote to false prophets, John encourages the gift of
prophecy: “Dear children, this is the last hour … But all of you have an anointing from the
Holy One, and all of you know the truth . As for you, the anointing you received from him
remains in you, and you do not need any one to teach you. But as his anointing teaches
you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit-just as it has taught you,
remain in him . . . . continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and
unashamed before him at his coming.” This passage is strikingly parallel to the promise of
the Paraclete to the apostles (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13f). Here the promise is to the
general readers!

17. Jude 18-21 [As Jesus prophesied] “In the last times… there will be those who follow
their own human desires, and who do not have the Spirit. By contrast, you, beloved,
during these same “last times,” edify yourselves in your most holy faith by praying in the
Spirit.” “Praying in the Spirit” = praying in response to the direct leading of the Spirit–a
revelatory process, or, as in 1, Cor 14:4,14,15, in glossolalic prayer (“one who “prays in the
Spirit” edifies himself).

Each of these passages, then, continues the pattern of Jesus’ commissions to his disciples
to demonstrate articulate the Kingdom in the power of the Spirit–to the 12, the 70 (72),
the 120–as archetypes of “all of the Lord’s people” (including the readers of these verses)
whom Moses wished would all be filled with the Spirit of prophecy (Num 11:29; cf., Isa
59:21; Joel 2:28-30; 1 Cor 14:1,5,39).


 
May 2, 2011
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ON CESSATIONISM - (Continued)

E. The Clear Statements of Scripture Regarding the Charismata Are
Inimical to Cessationism


Warfield also fails to perceive that the explicitly stated commands to fulfill the biblical
conditions for the manifestation of the charismata (e.g., repentance, faith and prayer)
contradict his unconditional, temporary connection of the charismata with the apostles
and the introduction of their doctrine. He also fails to account for the many explicit biblical
commands directly to seek, desire and employ the very charismata he claims have
ceased. How can Warfield ignore these biblically explicit conditions and commands for the
continuation of the charismata, if, as he insists, the Bible continues as the normative
guide to the Church for her faith and praxis?

1. Commands to Faith and Prayer for the Appearance of the Charismata


The New Testament repeatedly exhorts its readers that the appearance of God’s
charismatic power correlates with human response, specifically, in faith and prayer. This
need not imply that these work magically, in some sense “forcing” God to act. But it is
clear that anyone, quickened by the Spirit, is commanded, either by precept or example,
to respond, for example, in faith and prayer to God’s graces. Peter, in his Pentecost
sermon urges, “Repent and be baptized every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ so
that your sins may be forgiven. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The
promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off–for all whom the Lord our
God will call.” Repentance, aggressive turning from this present world to enter the
kingdom of God and its charismatic blessings, is a strong theme in the teaching of Jesus
(e.g., Mt 13:44-45; 10:7,8 Lk 9:1,2; cf. 10:9).

In the synoptic gospels, almost all of the references to faith relate it to the power of God
for physical needs, primarily healing. Jesus stresses the need for faith for miracles (“your
faith has saved you”: Mk 5:34 Mt 9:22 Lk 8:48, cf. 7:50; “made you whole”: 17:19; Mk 10:52
Lk 18:42). The context shows similar connections in Mt 8:10 Lk 7:9, cf. Jn 4:46-54; Mk 2:5
Mt 9:2; Lk 5:20; Mt 15:28, cf. Jn. 11:40. Even for control over the elements Jesus
commands faith (Mk 4:40 Mt 8:26 Lk 8:25); even to walk on the water (Mt 14:31), to
uproot mountains and trees by faith (Mk 11:20-25; Mt 17:20-21; 21:20- 22; Lk 17:6, cf. I
Cor 13:2). In fact, he says, “Everything is possible to those who have faith” (Mk 9:23)!
Conversely, where there is unbelief Jesus does no miracles (Mk 6:5-6 Mt 13:58).

This commitment is carried on in the apostolic church. The story of the healing of the
lame man teaches explicitly that miracles do not derive from apostolic accreditation, but
from the power of faith (in this case, that of the lame man) in the exalted Christ (Acts
3:12, 16; cf. 4:9-12; see the similar teaching in 14:9). Paul commands his readers to
“prophesy according to your faith” (Rom. 12:6; cf. 12:3; Eph. 4:7,16), and connects the faith
of a local congregation, not accreditation of doctrine, with the working of miracles (Gal.
3:5). Cyril H. Powell, in The Biblical Concept of Power (London: Epworth Press, 1963),
185-85, cites a number of similar examples in Paul and concludes, “Paul has learned that
pistis [faith] is the way to God’s gifts [of power].” Scripture offers many other examples
relating prayer and the appearance of miracles in the ministry of Jesus and the apostles,
e.g., in the miracle of exorcism in Mk 9:28; similarly in Acts 4:30 prayer “to stretch out
your [God's] hand to heal and perform miracles in the name of your holy servant Jesus”;
4:33, 8:15, 9:40; 28:8. See G.W.H. Lampe, “The Holy Spirit in the Writings of St. Luke,”
Studies in the Gospels, ed. D.E. Nineham (Oxford: Blackwell, 1952), 169. Paul continually
prays for his converts that they might abound in “knowledge and all perception” or “all
Spiritual wisdom and understanding” (including charismatic revelation), as well as “in all
power” (dunamis–not excluding its most frequent NT meaning, “miracle”–Phil 1:9-10; Col
1:9-12). James makes the crucial point that the appearance of miracles is not a function
of accrediting prophets, but of righteous, believing and fervent prayer (5:16-17). James
points to Elijah as an example for his readers to follow, not a saint to be accredited with
miracles. Why cannot this principle be applied to the New Testament worthies as well?

2. Direct Commands to Desire, Seek and Employ the Charismata


Closely related to the argument above that the function of the charismata determines
their duration, is the argument from Scripture that the appearance of the charismata
depends, not on accrediting functions, but on human responses to explicit biblical
commands, e.g., simply to seek, request and employ the charismata, on the basis of prior
repentance and obedience toward God, via faith and prayer. To deny that these
commands of Scripture, woven so thoroughly throughout the fabric of the New
Testament, have relevance today, is to call into question the very relevance of the
scriptural canon for the Church of any age. These are not commands simply to the
apostles, but often by apostles to the “laity.” In any case, all these biblical commands can
be construed as parenetic to the Church at large.

The New Testament specifically commands its readers to “seek,” “desire earnestly,”
“rekindle” and “employ” certain “miraculous” charismata (1 Cor 12:3 1; 14:1, 4, 5, and 39; 2
Tm 1:6; 1 Pt 4: 10, cf. Jn 14:12-14; 15:7; l6:23-24–ask for “anything” in the context of the
Spirit’s descent to the disciples; Jn 3:21-22) and implies that their appearance can be
suppressed by simple neglect (Rom 12:6; 1 Cor 14:39; 1 Th 5:19-20; 1 Tm 4:14; 2 Tm 1:6).
On the latter verse, J.N.D. Kelly affirms that “the idea that this grace operates
automatically is excluded.” (The Pastoral Epistles, Harper’s New Testament
Commentaries [New York: Harper and Row, 1963], 159). He compares this passage with
the “quenching” of the Spirit of prophecy in 1 Th. 5:19. Biblical commands, “let us use,”
“strive to excel [in spiritual gifts],” “desire earnestly,” “do not quench,” etc., make little
sense canonically if the occurrence of the charismata bears no relation to the obedience
of these commands.

3. Cessationism and Five Biblical Principles Regarding the Charismata

Cessationism is inimical to at least five more important NT principles regarding the charismata.

1. Paul implicitly challenges the belief that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit were granted
only for the establishment of doctrine for the Church, which then would carry on more or
less under its own interpretive intellect with a greatly restricted activity of the Spirit. Paul
exclaims to the Galatians who were tempted by a resurgent Judaism to exchange their
calling as prophets for that of the scribes and a religion of Torah-study and works-
righteousness: “Having begun in the Spirit [the context indicates a miracle-producing
Spirit], will you now be completed, or reach maturity (epiteleisthe) in the flesh?” Paul
does not force a choice between the charismata of prophecy and miracle versus biblical
precepts; he insisted upon both. Scripture itself affirms the ongoing process of spiritual
perfecting (maturing) in this age as being normatively developed by the whole range of
the charismata, which, within the framework of Scripture, reveal Christ even as they
illuminate, apply, express and actualize his Gospel. Against cessationism, the NT insists
that the Church is both initiated and matured by the whole range of the Spirit’s gifts.

2. Romans 11:29 states a principle that could hardly be more clearly anti-cessationist:
that from God’s side, his radical and unconditional grace offers to sustain the above
process all during the present age: “God’s gifts (charismata) and his call are
irrevocable–not repented of, or withdrawn.” The context shows that the human failure to
receive God’s call, or charismata, does not at all require that they are sovereignly
withdrawn in Church history, but rather that they cannot become manifested in those to
who reject them. Accordingly, it may be this very unhappy state of the Church that Paul
foresaw: an intellectualized quasi-deism among those having “a form of religion, while
denying its power (dunamis)” (2 Tm 3:5).

One might argue here that this verse applies only to “salvation,” specifically to the Jews,
and not to the gifts of the Spirit. But here one must follow Pauls logic. Paul bases the
promise of salvation of the Jews as being true because it is a sub-set of the
generalization that the charismatawill not be withdrawn, and not vice versa.

3. Still another Pauline principle is that no one member, i.e. , charismatic function, of the
body of Christ can say to another, “I have no need of you” (1 Cor 12:21). Cessationism
says precisely that. Similarly, no one who is gifted in a specific way may demand that all
the body become as he, say, a tongue! The point of I Cor 12 is that for a body to be a body
at all it must have all its functions working reciprocally for the good of the whole, each
recognizing not only its own value, but also the crucial importance of the others as well.
By its very nature, cessationism violates this key biblical principle.

4. The cessationist schema that miracles cluster around great revelatory events to
establish the truth of that revelation does not bear scrutiny. Jeremiah lays down an
explicit principle about the distribution of divine signs and wonders in 32:20, “You
performed signs and wonders in Egypt and have continued them to this day, both in Israel
and among all mankind!” Moreover, while new, enscripturated revelation abounded during
and just after the Exodus, there was relatively little new doctrinal content added during
the miracle working time of Elijah and Elisha, and certainly no more new revelation in
Daniel than, say, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel or the other prophets.

Moreover, the greatest new revelation of all was announced by John the Baptist, who “did
no Miracle” (Jn 10:41). The contention that miracles faded as one moves toward the end
of Acts thus indicating the onset of the cessation of miracles is misleading. Much of the
last part of Acts relates to an imprisoned Paul, who, when released for normal ministry at
the end of the book practically empties the island of Malta of its sick (Acts 28:9)! Further,
to argue that because “Jews seek signs and Greeks seek wisdom” (1Cor 1:22), that
Christian evangelism moved from an evangelism characterized by miracles to one
characterized by reasoned discourse (and remained there for the rest of Church history)
flies in the face of Paul’s own characterization of. his highly charismatic gospel among the
Gentiles (Acts 15:12; Rom 15:19; 2 Cor 12: 12; 1 Thess 1:5). More importantly, following
the tradition of Jesus who refused signs to those who demanded them for evidential proof
(Mk 8:11-11; Mt 12:38-39; Lk 11:16, 29) Paul insists his reaction to the unbelieving
demand for a sign (or wisdom) is not to willingly provide them, as this argument would
have it, but to preach the “wisdom and power of God” Christ crucified only to those who
could receive it.

5. Finally, the essence of cessationism–the limitation of miracles to new revelation and
its bearers-contradicts another biblical principle, namely, the biblical desire to see the
Spirit of prophecy and miracle to be as broadly spread as possible. The classic case is Num
11:26-29 where Joshua is threatened by the loss of Moses’ “accreditation” by the
prophetic Spirit. Moses replies, “Are you jealous for my sake? I wish all the Lord’s people
were prophets and that the Lord would put His Spirit on them!” The subsequent OT
prophets foresaw an ideal time when the Spirit would be bestowed broadly upon all
categories- of humanity (Joel 2:2829, cf. Acts 2:17-18, 21, 39). Similarly, Jesus refused to
stop those who cast out demons in his name, though not directly associated with him (Mk
9:38-40//Lk 9:49-50). No doubt this logion was recorded for the Church in response to
exorcists, or perhaps those exercising spiritual gifts generally, who were not only not
apostles, but not even church members! At that point the “accrediting” function of
miracles becomes a little thin. Paul prays for “all the saints [Jew and Gentile]” that they
might experience gifts of revelation, knowledge and power [dunamis] at the level of
resurrection power that Jesus experienced (so also, 1 Cor 12:6; 14:1, 5, 24, 39; Gal 3:5, 14;
Eph 5:18; Col 1:9-14, etc.). Against cessationism, then, this brief sketch shows the biblical
(and divine) impulse to offer the power of the Spirit to all who would respond to it, rather
than limit it to a few founders of the Christian community whose status must be
enhanced.

F. Implications and Conclusions


The frequent failure. to respond to God’s commands to manifest the Kingdom of God in
power is fully shared by most believers, “charismatics” and non-charismatics alike. Both
groups tend to shape their theology and consequent practice on the basis of their own
experience–or lack of it–rather than on a fresh and radical in its original sense) view of
Scripture. The presence or absence of certain charismata in one’s experience proves
nothing at all about one’s spiritual status or destiny (Mt 7:21-22). Neither “charismatics”
or “non-” are more or less “saved” than the other; both are at once sinful, but justified by
grace alone. Nevertheless, the NT offers patterns as to how the Gospel is to be presented,
received and lived out. We must not attempt to reframe our failures into virtues that is,
by allowing what the New Testament describes as “unbelief” in and for the gifts of God, to
be construed as having chosen “the better way” of a “stronger faith” without them. The
rabbis’ intellectualized biblical knowledge which led to their cessationism, prompted Jesus
to affirm that they knew (in the biblical sense) “neither the Scriptures nor the power of
God” (Mt 22:29 Mk 12:24).

Much divisiveness over the gifts of the Spirit today derives from a common premise held
by both sides of the debate: evidentialism. If spiritual gifts are adduced as proofs of
spiritual status or attainment, rather than used as tools for humble service for others,
then conflict naturally follows. The core temptation to the first and Second Adam, and by
extension to all of us, was to use spiritual knowledge and power to accredit one’s
independent and exalted religious status, instead of through them, rendering glory,
obedience and service to God. Spiritual gifts are powerful weapons against the kingdom of
darkness; but misapplied in evidentialist polemics they can wound and destroy the people
of God.

The charismata, then, reflect the very nature of God, who does not share his glory with
another. Similarly, God is a Spirit of power, “who changeth not.” If the Church has “begun
in the Spirit,” let us not attempt to change God’s methods to complete our course in the
weakness of human flesh. Since it is the Father’s pleasure to “give good gifts to them who
ask Him,” it must be our pleasure to receive them humbly.

This article is an adaptation of Chapter 4 from the book based on the author’s PhD
dissertation, On the Cessation of the Charismata: The Protestant Polemic on Post-biblical
Miracles (Sheffield, UK: Sheffield University Academic Press, 1993).
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
when you're done flooding a perfectionsim thread with continuationist rationalizations,

please provide the name of one person raised from dead after being buried, the name of one authoritative apostle, and maybe a prophet the church has held a council and agreed God needed to add to canon.

also, if we can find anyone in fiji miraculously speaking german and telling of the wonderful works of God (the Gospel) not having learned it previously, i'll reconsider my position.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
when you're done flooding a perfectionsim thread with continuationist rationalizations,

please provide the name of one person raised from dead after being buried, the name of one authoritative apostle, and maybe a prophet the church has held a council and agreed God needed to add to canon.

also, if we can find anyone in fiji miraculously speaking german and telling of the wonderful works of God (the Gospel) not having learned it previously, i'll reconsider my position.

lol. did you read all that stuff??

I second what you said though!!
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
lol. did you read all that stuff??

I second what you said though!!
hey EG bud
i'd already read it.
its just amazing that the true doctrines like cessation of foundational offices and gifts are so easily thrown down.
Baptists should read their ancient confession of faith.
likewise all the other denoms. they all say ceased.
oh well. who cares.
zonest
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
hey EG bud
i'd already read it.
its just amazing that the true doctrines like cessation of foundational offices and gifts are so easily thrown down.
Baptists should read their ancient confession of faith.
likewise all the other denoms. they all say ceased.
oh well. who cares.
zonest
lol. I grew up a baptist. Attended a baptist churhc of some form until about 10 years ago, There are so many different baptists with so many different beliefs I get lost trying to think of what a baptist believes. It is sad.

Needless to say. I no longer consider myself baptist. I have seen the light so to speak.

PS. I never knew a baptist church who believed in these gifts. So maybe I attended the wrong ones?? lol
 
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* Simple thing is -- Warfield was incorrect in his assertions on Cessation.
* Simple thing is Prophesying and healing continues.
* Simple thing is, Princeton has to be done away with.
* Simple thing is Finney preached to the masons just like zone and many others are doing.
* Simple thing is, Finney rose up against Joe Smith (Mormon), The Campbellites (CoC)
and SDA cults that rose up in his back yard in his time.
* Simple thing is, to this very day, many, and High Level masons are coming out of the
cult and speaking out.
* Simple thing is, Civil War came, Warfield could Warfield deny these signs?
* Simple thing is, World War came again after Warfield, and then more, religious wars ...


The word CONTINUES to go out, despite all attempts by University Professors and Church
Leaders, Governments and Cults to prevent it. Sadly, too often war comes as a result,
just as it did after the denial of Jesus.


This ends my posts relative to Cessationism and Warfield, I have one more to post on John MAC Arthur.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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the infantile attempts to say cessationism means, as one member said "God is dead"; or He is asleep or gone, or inactive. just ridiculous.

this is about those gifts in Corinth, and Acts....nothing more.
those offices ceased with canon as the completely revealed will and Plan of God was finally canonized, and people are without excuse.

but....take yer pick of signs and wonders and prophets....one in every color and flavour.

but, according to scripture, this problem isn't going to go away, it is going to increase.
my hope is people will come to the truth of the matter before it reaches critical mass, per 2 thess 2
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
the infantile attempts to say cessationism means, as one member said "God is dead"; or He is asleep or gone, or inactive. just ridiculous.

this is about those gifts in Corinth, and Acts....nothing more.
those offices ceased with canon as the completely revealed will and Plan of God was finally canonized, and people are without excuse.

but....take yer pick of signs and wonders and prophets....one in every color and flavour.

but, according to scripture, this problem isn't going to go away, it is going to increase.
my hope is people will come to the truth of the matter before it reaches critical mass, per 2 thess 2
According to which 'canon' are you referring to? There have been several over the ages however the most complete 'canon', the one the majority of Christians embrace today, was not assembled until the 3rd century by a council of bishops (although it was still debated for centuries after) however this 'canon' was later modified on a couple of separate occasions. This contradicts your claim that the gifts had ceased with the death of the original apostles. So which is it or are you simply grasping for straws?

Biblical canon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Crossfire

Guest
lol. I grew up a baptist. Attended a baptist churhc of some form until about 10 years ago, There are so many different baptists with so many different beliefs I get lost trying to think of what a baptist believes. It is sad.

Needless to say. I no longer consider myself baptist. I have seen the light so to speak.

PS. I never knew a baptist church who believed in these gifts. So maybe I attended the wrong ones?? lol
There are some. They call themselves ' full gospel baptists' and they are becoming more prevalent in the southern United States. All they are is baptists who have embraced the pentecostal perspective of the baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues while continuing on with their traditional baptist beliefs, namely once saved always saved.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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According to which 'canon' are you referring to? There have been several over the ages however the most complete 'canon', the one the majority of Christians embrace today, was not assembled until the 3rd century by a council of bishops (although it was still debated for centuries after) however this 'canon' was later modified on a couple of separate occasions. This contradicts your claim that the gifts had ceased with the death of the original apostles. So which is it or are you simply grasping for straws?

Biblical canon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

what in the world does that have to do with people pretending to be prophets or speaking gibberish?
or receiving new revelation?

you're wasting your time on me my friend...but there are tons who will buy what you're selling.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
There are some. They call themselves ' full gospel baptists' and they are becoming more prevalent in the southern United States. All they are is baptists who have embraced the pentecostal perspective of the baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues while continuing on with their traditional baptist beliefs, namely once saved always saved.
now that doesn't sound scriptural. when does God say that Tongues are spoken by EVERYONE?

mmm I remember reading this:

1 Corinthians 12:29-31
New King James Version (NKJV)
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best[a] gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.


kind of implies that NOT ALL speak in tongues since NOT all are Apostles, prophets, teachers, workers of miracles, have gifts of healing or interpret....the whole parts of the whole body if Christ idea?
 
Aug 18, 2011
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There are some. They call themselves ' full gospel baptists' and they are becoming more prevalent in the southern United States. All they are is baptists who have embraced the pentecostal perspective of the baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues while continuing on with their traditional baptist beliefs, namely once saved always saved.
The pride of western Protestantism can be seen all too prevalently today, I.E. denominational fracture men have left the path of the Word to follow their own hearts and divinations of the mind.
For who among us hasn't felt the sting of pride and arrogancy when corrected or confronted on their beliefs?
Point being that we should read the scriptures and make an earnest attempt at discovering the truth for ourselves as opposed to relying on denominationalism as a basis for faith. I know this may sound absurd but regardless of how bastardized anyones bible has become we should focus on the common parts which all doctrines have as opposed to disemboweling the scriptures to find hidden truths that we percieve as such.When we do this we seek to place ourselves above our fellow man in order to obtain recognition by other men as to our greatness, holiness whatever you want to call it. This is exactly what satan did he wanted everyone to admire him and praise him not God and in so doing removed himself from Gods glory. This is not to say don't be on the lookout for false doctrine, yet find common ground in the scriptures and work towards rebuilding the church of Christ as opposed to tearing it apart!

Selah
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
you're wasting your time on me my friend...but there are tons who will buy what you're selling.
I stumbled across your testimony not too long ago in one of the other threads. It's a shame that in your desire to push away from one religious extreme that you have adopted an equally dangerous religious extreme on the opposite end of the spectrum.

When I read your posts, I sense a lot of hostility toward others. Instead of expressing the love of God for those who reject what you believe to be the truth, you 'reject' them by treating them very harshly. This is a very strong indicator that you have some underlying emotional issues pertaining to rejection that really need to be addressed. It's obvious that your agenda against charismatics is very personal and unhealthy, not only for your own well being for everyone on these boards who you encounter. I see very little love or compassion in your posts no matter how hard you try to cover it up with your Rob Schnider schtick, Zonmeister.

I'm afraid you won't find acceptance online no matter where you go. To be honest it's hard enough to find acceptance in many of today's churches however, you should really find yourself a good church that believes as you do (or at least as close as you can find) and get involved, submitting yourself to their spiritual authority and stick with it. Let them know about how you feel and what your dealing with. Real Christians will embrace you with open arms and do everything in their power to help you feel accepted. Get involved with those in need, volunteer where every possible. Whatever it takes in order restore your compassion toward others.
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
now that doesn't sound scriptural. when does God say that Tongues are spoken by EVERYONE?

mmm I remember reading this:

1 Corinthians 12:29-31
New King James Version (NKJV)
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best[a] gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.


kind of implies that NOT ALL speak in tongues since NOT all are Apostles, prophets, teachers, workers of miracles, have gifts of healing or interpret....the whole parts of the whole body if Christ idea?
I am not a pentecostal but from what I understand of their doctrine, they do not believe everyone must speak in tongues to be saved. They believe that the baptism is a secondary experience to be sought after salvation. Although there is one branch of pentecostalism that does believe this way, the United Pentecostal Church (UPC). They also believe in oneness.
 
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I stumbled across your testimony not too long ago in one of the other threads. It's a shame that in your desire to push away from one religious extreme that you have adopted an equally dangerous religious extreme on the opposite end of the spectrum.

When I read your posts, I sense a lot of hostility toward others. Instead of expressing the love of God for those who reject what you believe to be the truth, you 'reject' them by treating them very harshly. This is a very strong indicator that you have some underlying emotional issues pertaining to rejection that really need to be addressed. It's obvious that your agenda against charismatics is very personal and unhealthy, not only for your own well being for everyone on these boards who you encounter. I see very little love or compassion in your posts no matter how hard you try to cover it up with your Rob Schnider schtick, Zonmeister.

I'm afraid you won't find acceptance online no matter where you go. To be honest it's hard enough to find acceptance in many of today's churches however, you should really find yourself a good church that believes as you do (or at least as close as you can find) and get involved, submitting yourself to their spiritual authority and stick with it. Let them know about how you feel and what your dealing with. Real Christians will embrace you with open arms and do everything in their power to help you feel accepted. Get involved with those in need, volunteer where every possible. Whatever it takes in order restore your compassion toward others.
In all honesty Mr. Crossfire are you any better than those whom you chastise publicly?
We all have our own crosses to bear. Selah
Institutionalized faith is a heresy regardless of denomination because in so doing we put preachers, priests etc.above ourselves in a vain attempt at salvation!

We should all come together as one under God to discuss the scriptures and their meanings and if we are rebuked for our thoughts and conjectures upon said scriptures we should (before our stiffnecks and pride do away with the truth) pray to God for wisdom concerning our conjectures and others conjectures as well upon the scriptures. Selah

Jesus may have taught in synagogues etc. but where was his most prolific and spoken of preaching done? Sermon on the mount? From a boat in the sea of Galilee? Or on a rocky knoll feeding 5000.
We all have much to learn (myself included)when it comes to an unbiased approach to interpreting the scriptures (let he who is without sin cast the first stone)

Selah
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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I stumbled across your testimony not too long ago in one of the other threads. It's a shame that in your desire to push away from one religious extreme that you have adopted an equally dangerous religious extreme on the opposite end of the spectrum.

When I read your posts, I sense a lot of hostility toward others. Instead of expressing the love of God for those who reject what you believe to be the truth, you 'reject' them by treating them very harshly. This is a very strong indicator that you have some underlying emotional issues pertaining to rejection that really need to be addressed. It's obvious that your agenda against charismatics is very personal and unhealthy, not only for your own well being for everyone on these boards who you encounter. I see very little love or compassion in your posts no matter how hard you try to cover it up with your Rob Schnider schtick, Zonmeister.

I'm afraid you won't find acceptance online no matter where you go. To be honest it's hard enough to find acceptance in many of today's churches however, you should really find yourself a good church that believes as you do (or at least as close as you can find) and get involved, submitting yourself to their spiritual authority and stick with it. Let them know about how you feel and what your dealing with. Real Christians will embrace you with open arms and do everything in their power to help you feel accepted. Get involved with those in need, volunteer where every possible. Whatever it takes in order restore your compassion toward others.
thanks for psychology session.
i'm not interested in the NAR.

its totally bogus, and people who claim to be receiving new revelation and speaking in gibberish and outlandish claims of raising the dead etc: are mocking God.

so, dear friend.

weep not for me, i would worry much about hearing Lord, Lord...did we not?

real christians who would embrace me and lay hands on me and tell me God told them to tell em all about what He has planned for my life? that kinda thing?

nah. Montanus was already branded as a heretic. i learn from history.

i have a lot of compassion for the deceived. but they can't hear anymore.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
There are some. They call themselves ' full gospel baptists' and they are becoming more prevalent in the southern United States. All they are is baptists who have embraced the pentecostal perspective of the baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues while continuing on with their traditional baptist beliefs, namely once saved always saved.

No baptist I know of thinks baptism of the HS is something which gives us a gift. (not saying there are non, just never came acrossed any. And I have attended prolly 50 baptist churches in all my travels. )All baptists I know of understand baptism of the HS is what water baptism represents. it is what saves us.

I also know many baptists who do not believe in eternal security though.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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BUMP

notIbutChrist is 4runner

you'll see what he really believes in this thread.
for more on his "jesus" do an advanced search.

meanwhile, i'll keep posting on his mentors Lou Engle Mike Bickle, IHOP and the NAR.