The Holy Spirit and Salvation !

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Oct 19, 2024
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#61
What scriptures did I provide ? Did you understand them
You provided the following:

Jn 16:7 - 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

The word expedient also conveys the meaning of [appropriate for a purpose]. The Lord Jesus Christ is giving His disciples [The Church] to know the importance of the need of the comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, to come and to assist in their commission of evangelism, not only would He aid them, but He is needed for the gathering in of the rest of the Church, the people Christ died for. The Holy Spirit was responsible to apply the saving benefits to all Christ died for, the Church, His Body. He came to regenerate all of God's elect as it was according to The Everlasting Covenant of which Christ is the Surety.

Isa 59:21 - As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

The coming of the Spirit to regenerate is a covenant promise [Ezk 36:26-27] and blood purchased, He works by means of the Father and the Son [Jn 14:26], as this is realized we give Glory To God Triune for the Salvation of a sinner, and Thank Them for the saving Operations of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit works from the Father's decree

2 Thess 2:13 - 13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

And the Son's redemption Gal 4:5

To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Rom 8:15 - For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

And so He is sent to make effective what was counseled in the Everlasting Covenant for the experimental salvation of God's people that Christ died for. To all the Father elected, all whom Christ died, the Spirit is given to them as the Spirit of promise. The Holy Spirit is the bond of union between the elect members and Christ their Head, He unites us to Christ experimentally because we have the Same Spirit He has, that is the Holy Spirit in the Head is in the members, so He works like effects for the same, if He quickens the Head as here:

Rom 8:11 - But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1 Pet 3:18 - For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

He will also quicken the Members. Thats why each dead spiritually elect or chosen in Christ Eph 1:4 will be quickened while dead in trespasses and sins

Eph 2:1,4,5 - 1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

This is a work of the Spirit in Salvation, why it was expedient that Christ go away that He may come and begin His Saving, quickening Ministry, at this time He would mostly work in behalf of the apostles to prepare the elect to receive their word..

Yes, I understand the verses, and I understand your opinion of their meaning.

Do you know and understand the verses MM might cite?
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
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#63
@Musicmaster



So that means you reject what I have posted about the Holy Spirit and Salvation
You stated this in post #8: "This thread is about the Holy Spirits role in Salvation "

I agree that Holy Spirit does indeed play a critical role in salvation, and gives a measure of faith beyond, and in greater measure than, what we have already within us before salvation. There are a number of people out there, however, who think that Holy Spirit only gives faith for salvation to a pre-selected few, with the rest having been consigned to Hell by the choosing of the father, all on the basis of His Sovereignty...as if that's their escape for trying to make God out to look like an unjust tyrant.

If you are of that stripe, then we do indeed disagree. If you're not, then what is your take on that?

MM
 
Oct 19, 2024
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#64
@GWH


Yeah but they arent part of my discussion, Im here to prove my point, no someone else points.
Therein lies your hermeneutical error/bias: We ought to want (being biased toward oneness or spiritual unity by way of answering the prayer of Jesus in JN 17:20-23) to harmonize both points.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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#65
@Musicmaster
You stated this in post #8: "This thread is about the Holy Spirits role in Salvation "
Yes

I agree that Holy Spirit does indeed play a critical role in salvation, and gives a measure of faith beyond, and in greater measure than, what we have already within us before salvation.
There is no salvation Faith from the Spirit b4 Salvation, Faith from the Spirit is given in the application of Salvation. Thats why its given because man naturally is void of it. Now b4 salvation we may have some kinda natural faith, however that's worthless in Spiritual matters.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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#66
Therein lies your hermeneutical error/bias: We ought to want (being biased toward oneness or spiritual unity by way of answering the prayer of Jesus in JN 17:20-23) to harmonize both points.
No Im not here to forsake my thread and work I put into it, to chase someones elses interest. If you dont want to discuss my points, then dont, simple as that. But dont go round up a bunch of verese and shove them in my face and demand me to explain them, explain them yourself.
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
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#67
@Musicmaster


Yes



There is no salvation Faith from the Spirit b4 Salvation, Faith from the Spirit is given in the application of Salvation. Thats why its given because man naturally is void of it. Now b4 salvation we may have some kinda natural faith, however that's worthless in Spiritual matters.
I will agree that our faith is indeed greatly enhanced and empowered after salvation. What I addressed initially is the potential foothold that some hyper-Calvinists may try to gain in all this from some of the verses you quoted. They see some of those as their proof texts, which, when read in context, most generally blows their TULIP model over into the cesspool where it belongs. Sproul and MacArthur were always too great in their super-star fame to even sniff in my direction when I challenged them to open forum debates over their TULIP crap. Their lack of intellectual honesty, shielded behind the wall of their pathetic fame and fortunes, given the many they have led down their paths of false doctrines, it's sad indeed.

MM
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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#68
I will agree that our faith is indeed greatly enhanced and empowered after salvation. What I addressed initially is the potential foothold that some hyper-Calvinists may try to gain in all this from some of the verses you quoted. They see some of those as their proof texts, which, when read in context, most generally blows their TULIP model over into the cesspool where it belongs. Sproul and MacArthur were always too great in their super-star fame to even sniff in my direction when I challenged them to open forum debates over their TULIP crap. Their lack of intellectual honesty, shielded behind the wall of their pathetic fame and fortunes, given the many they have led down their paths of false doctrines, it's sad indeed.

MM
I havent agreed with anything you have stated, and dont see where you agree with me.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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#69
No Im not here to forsake my thread and work I put into it, to chase someones elses interest. If you dont want to discuss my points, then dont, simple as that. But dont go round up a bunch of verese and shove them in my face and demand me to explain them, explain them yourself.
It sounds to me like you need to forsake your self and ponder JN 17:20-23 until you embrace those verses Jesus shoves.
Then the thread can be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
(Life is rarely simple! LIC :^)
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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#70
It sounds to me like you need to forsake your self and ponder JN 17:20-23 until you embrace those verses Jesus shoves.
Then the thread can be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
(Life is rarely simple! LIC :^)
Sounds like I will be seeing you at the Judgment
 
Oct 19, 2024
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#71
Sounds like I will be seeing you at the Judgment
Well, I have good reason to believe that I will go to heaven because I am not self-condemned by being divisive
but rather am trying my best to cooperate with the prayer of Jesus in JN 17 and the TOP in TIT 3:9-11--
(and I have no quarrel with your OP :^)
 
Nov 21, 2020
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#73
The Holy Spirit has been employed in the Great Everlasting Transactions to be the One who applies the Blood of Christ to the Redeemed. 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

It is God's Elect who will have this blood of Christ applied [sprinkling] by the Spirit.

It is He who regenerates or gives new birth Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

He calls us the elect by the Gospel 2 Thess 2:14

Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. See Acts 13:2

This is an effectual call by Grace Gal 1:15

He gives us Faith to Believe after giving us hearing of the Gospel Jn 6:29; Eph 1:19; Eph 1:13

He seals the elect after their believing Eph 1:13;4:30

It was by Him that the elect of God are shown the Things of Christ Jn 16:14

Without the Holy Spirit's Saving work, we would never come to experience subjectively the Salvation Purposed for us by the Father, procured for us by the Son. 1
 
Oct 19, 2024
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#74
The Holy Spirit has been employed in the Great Everlasting Transactions to be the One who applies the Blood of Christ to the Redeemed. 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

It is God's Elect who will have this blood of Christ applied [sprinkling] by the Spirit.

It is He who regenerates or gives new birth Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

He calls us the elect by the Gospel 2 Thess 2:14

Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. See Acts 13:2

This is an effectual call by Grace Gal 1:15

He gives us Faith to Believe after giving us hearing of the Gospel Jn 6:29; Eph 1:19; Eph 1:13

He seals the elect after their believing Eph 1:13;4:30

It was by Him that the elect of God are shown the Things of Christ Jn 16:14

Without the Holy Spirit's Saving work, we would never come to experience subjectively the Salvation Purposed for us by the Father, procured for us by the Son. 1
I agree with all unless "effectual" call means forced conversion or irresistible grace (ACTS 28:23-27)

God’s normative means of conversion is persuasion rather than coercion (MT 12:39, 24:24, 1CR 1:22-23). This is seen very clearly in Jesus’ lament over the obstinacy of Jerusalem (MT 23:37). Two unusual theophanies included when God appeared to Moses (in a burning bush per EX 3:2-6), whom God wanted to establish the Jewish lineage for the Messiah (OT), and to Saul/Paul (as the resurrected Jesus in ACTS 9:3-6), whom God chose to establish the NT church of Christ.
 
Nov 21, 2020
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#75
I agree with all unless "effectual" call means forced conversion or irresistible grace (ACTS 28:23-27)

God’s normative means of conversion is persuasion rather than coercion (MT 12:39, 24:24, 1CR 1:22-23). This is seen very clearly in Jesus’ lament over the obstinacy of Jerusalem (MT 23:37). Two unusual theophanies included when God appeared to Moses (in a burning bush per EX 3:2-6), whom God wanted to establish the Jewish lineage for the Messiah (OT), and to Saul/Paul (as the resurrected Jesus in ACTS 9:3-6), whom God chose to establish the NT church of Christ.
Nothing forced at all, regeneration makes Gods people willing
 
Oct 19, 2024
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#76
Nothing forced at all, regeneration makes Gods people willing
force = make

God gracing souls with volition enables sinners to repent/accept/cooperate with God's will/regeneration/salvation

Nothing forced with enabling people to be willing--and unwilling.
God initiates; souls may cooperate--or not.
 
Nov 21, 2020
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#77
force = make

God gracing souls with volition enables sinners to repent/accept/cooperate with God's will/regeneration/salvation

Nothing forced with enabling people to be willing--and unwilling.
God initiates; souls may cooperate--or not.
Again, nothing is forced, but made willing in and by Gods Power Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Willing here means:


voluntariness, free-will offering

  1. voluntariness:
Voluntariness is the act of making a choice or taking an action without coercion or undue influence. It can also refer to the idea that someone is capable of making their own choices.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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#78
Again, nothing is forced, but made willing in and by Gods Power Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Willing here means:


voluntariness, free-will offering

  1. voluntariness:
Voluntariness is the act of making a choice or taking an action without coercion or undue influence. It can also refer to the idea that someone is capable of making their own choices.
I am glad we agree that God forces no one to be saved and no one to go to hell.
(HAND :^)
 
Nov 21, 2020
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#79
I am glad we agree that God forces no one to be saved and no one to go to hell.
(HAND :^)
No He makes them willing and that's because they are His People, Chosen in Christ before the foundation. We don't agree one bit!