THE IMMORTAL SOUL

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May 3, 2009
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Immortal Soul

"The soul is not in itself immortal, O Greeks, but mortal. Yet it is possible for it not to die. If, indeed, it knows not the truth, it dies, and is dissolved with the body, but rises again at last at the end of the world with the body, receiving death by punishment in immortality."
Tatian,Address to the Greeks,13(A.D. 175),in ANF,II:70

"But since this cause is seen to lie in perpetual existence, the being so created must be preserved for ever, doing and experiencing what is suitable to its nature, each of the two parts of which it consists contributing what belongs to it, so that the soul may exist and remain without change in the nature in which it was made, and discharge its appropriate functions (such as presiding over the impulses of the body, and judging of and measuring that which occurs from time to time by the proper standards and measures), and the body be moved according to its nature towards its appropriate objects, and undergo the changes allotted to it, and, among the rest (relating to age, or appearance, or size), the resurrection."
Athenagoras,Resurrection of the Dead,12(A.D. 180),in ANF,II:15

"And again to the Romans he says, 'But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies.' What, then, are mortal bodies? Can they be souls? Nay, for souls are incorporeal when put in comparison with mortal bodies; for God 'breathed into the face of man the breath of life, and man became a living soul." Now the breath of life is an incorporeal thing. And certainly they cannot maintain that the very breath of life is mortal. Therefore David says, "My soul also shall live to Him,' just as if its substance were immortal."
Irenaeus,Against Heresies,5,7:1(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:532-3

"The soul, then, we define to be sprung from the breath of God, immortal ..."
Tertullian,A treatise on the soul,22:2(A.D. 212),in ANF,III:203

"But that the soul is made immortal is a further point in the Church's teaching which you must know, to shew how the idols are to be overthrown."
Athanasius,Against the Heathen,33(A.D. 318),in XIV:21

"For in the first birth they are born with animal souls which is created within man and is not thereafter subject to death..."
Aphrahat,Select Demonstrations,6:14(A.D. 345),in NPNF2,XIII:371-2

"Next to the knowledge of this venerable and glorious and all-holy Faith, learn further what thou thyself art: that as man thou art of a two-fold nature, consisting of soul and body; and that, as was said a short time ago, the same God is the Creator both of soul and body. Know also that thou hast a soul self-governed, the noblest work of God, made after the image of its Creator: immortal because of God that gives it immortality; a living being, rational, imperishable, because of Him that bestowed these gifts: having free power to do what it willeth"
Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,4:18(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:23

"In fact, I said the Divine utterances seemed to me like mere commands compelling us to believe that the soul lasts for ever."
Gregory of Nyssa,On the Soul and Resurrection(A.D. 380),in NPNF2,V:431

"Such a kind of sovereignty God bestowed upon us from the beginning, and set us over all things. And not only in this respect did He confer honour upon our nature, but also, by the very eminence of the spot in which we were placed, fixing upon Paradise as our choice dwelling, and bestowing the gift of reason, and an immortal soul."
John Chrysostom,Concerning Statues, 7:3(A.D. 387),in NPNF1,IX:391-2

"The immortality of the soul and its continuance after the dissolution of the body--truths of which Pythagoras dreamed..."
Jerome,To Heliodorus,Epistle 60:4(A.D. 397),in NPNF2,VI:125

"But because the soul from its very nature, being created immortal, cannot be without some kind of life, its utmost death is alienation from the life of God in an eternity of punishment. So, then, He only who gives true happiness gives eternal life, that is, an endlessly happy life."
Augustine,City of God,6:12(A.D. 427),NPNF1,II:121

Additionally, St. Augustine developed a treatise on the immortality of the soul in A.D 387 - "De immortalitate animae"

"The soul, accordingly, is a living essence, simple, incorporeal, invisible in its proper nature to bodily eyes, immortal, reasoning and intelligent, formless, making use of an organised body, and being the source of its powers of life, and growth, and sensation, and generation, mind being but its purest part and not in any wise alien to it; (for as the eye to the body, so is the mind to the soul); further it enjoys freedom and volition and energy, and is mutable, that is, it is given to change, because it is created."
John of Damascene,Orthodox Faith,2:12(A.D. 743),in NPNF2,IX:31
 
May 3, 2009
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#2
WHAT IS MAN that you should be mindful of him, or the son of man that you should care for him?" the Psalmist asks of God (Psalm 8:5).

By the inspiration of the Holy Spirit the answer comes: "You have made him little less than the angels."

Not everyone agrees with this divine opinion of man's dignity and place in creation. There are materialists who hold that human beings are matter and nothing more. They claim man is merely quantitatively, not qualitatively superior to other animals. He doesn't possess an immaterial, immortal soul.

In contrast to materialism is the classical view of human nature, which says man is a rational animal, different in kind as well as degree from other animals because he possesses immaterial powers of intellect and will. This was the view of ancient philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle, and, until recently, it was the view as well of most other philosophers in the Western tradition.

The classical view is compatible with Christian revelation, while the materialist view simply isn't. Christianity teaches that man is made in the image and likeness of God and has an immaterial.aspect to his being--an immortal soul, not possessed by other animals. He possesses intellect and free will, which are immaterial powers of the soul.

Since materialism and the classical view can't both be true, the dispute boils down to this: Which interpretation of man is more compatible with what we know about human beings?

Adequately answering this question entails more than tossing Bible verses because materialists don't care what the Bible says on the subject. They're interested in adjudicating the issue at the bar of reason.

This is precisely how philosopher Mortimer J. Adler approaches the subject in Intellect: Mind Over Matter. The book isn't a theological or apologetical work, but a highly readable, philosophical argument for the immateriality of man's intellect and its powers.

The author's principal goal is the refutation of materialist errors regarding the intellect. He accomplishes this by demonstrating the human intellect's uniqueness and its ability to do things which can only be explained by an immaterial power within man.

IN THE LATE 1960S Adler wrote The Difference of Man and the Difference it Makes, which presented the case for the uniqueness of the human intellect. There he challenged the claims of behavioral scientists that some higher mammals possess the same intellectual powers as man.

Intellect restates and updates the arguments presented in the earlier book. Adler acknowledges that some higher animals possess perceptual mental abilities, but he also says only man thinks conceptually. The distinction between perceptual abstraction, which is possible for some animals, and conception, of which man alone capable, is a decisive one.

Perceptual abstraction doesn't enable animals to understand things they haven't perceived or things which are by nature imperceptible (such as God or angels). It also fails to explain a uniquely human behavior: the use of general terms--common nouns designating kinds of things to refer to universal objects of thought.

THIS POINT IS illustrated by the notion of triangularity: "We can, for example, perceive visible figures that are triangles of a particular shape and size; we can also imagine or remember particular triangles. But we cannot by means of our sensitive powers think of triangularity in general, triangularity not particularized by shape, size, or color."

Our use of general terms to refer to universal objects of thought such as triangularity requires more than perceptual abstraction. It involves true concept-forming abilities, something possessed by man alone and which transcends the sensitive powers man shares with higher animals.

Why does the possession of this concept-forming ability support the immateriality of the intellect? Adler writes: "The argument hinges on two propositions. The first asserts that concepts whereby we understand what different kinds or classes of things are like consist of meanings that are universal.

"The second proposition asserts that nothing that exists physically is ever actually universal. Anything that is embodied in matter exists as an individual, a singular thing that may also be a particular instance of this class or that."

If concepts are universal and can't be embodied in matter, and if concepts do exist in our minds, then they must be acts of an intellectual, immaterial power, not the product of a material organ such as the brain.

This conclusion runs counter to what many neurologists say about the brain. They point to contemporary research which demonstrates how electrical stimulation of the brain can cause conscious experiences. Doesn't this indicate our thoughts are a function of biochemistry and not the result of an immaterial power called the intellect?

No, contends Adler. Such research proves only that the brain is a necessary, but not a sufficient, condition for human intellectual activity. He stresses how we can't think conceptually without our brains, but that we don't think with them:

"As the eye or ear, together with the brain, are sense-organs, the brain itself is not a mind-organ; or, more precisely, the brain is not an intellect-organ. The most that can be said of the brain in relation to the human mind is that it is an intellect-support organ, an organ upon which the intellect depends, without which it cannot think, but with which it does not think."

WHAT DOES THIS conclusion say about traditional Christian doctrines such as man's creation in God's image and the immortality of the human soul? Adler's argument lends support for, but doesn't prove, both doctrines by positing the immateriality of the intellect, which implies a spiritual component to human nature.

On the other hand, Adler's conclusion that we cannot think without our brains, even if we don't think conceptually with them, appears to conflict with the doctrine of immortality, which asserts a person's awareness, as well the soul itself, survives the death of the body.

Although the intellect's immateriality may provide a basis for the soul's continuance after death, its dependence on the corporeal powers of perception, memory, and imagination seems to suggest that the soul, left to itself, would be unable to function after its separation from the body.

A POSSIBLE SOLUTION to this problem could rest with God's intervention after death to preserve the soul's life from becoming one bereft of activity. The necessity of God's grace to preserve the soul's functioning would also serve to point to another eschatological truth--the resurrection of the body. Adler addressed this point in another book, The Angels and Us:

"Here, then, is a reason for the resurrection of the body that saves that dogma from being abhorrent. Divine intervention may be needed to preserve the soul's existence between death and the Last Judgement, and even to prevent that existence from being a life devoid of activity. But that is an unnatural or, perhaps it should be said, a supernatural condition for the soul to be in. For its immortal life to be thoroughly natural, it needs to be reunited with a body."

Some Christian philosophers will be displeased with this solution and with much of Adler's argument. Intellect doesn't offer a proof for the immortality of the soul because the author thinks, with Duns Scotus and contra Aquinas, that this is an article of faith and therefore beyond the power of reason to demonstrate.

Still, the book does provide grounds for affirming the immateriality of the human intellect, which is a necessary prerequisite for human immortality and a blow to materialist ideology.
 
May 3, 2009
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After We Die, What Happens Next?



Q: What is the church teaching on what happens after our earthly bodies die: Are we "dead" until Judgment Day or do we immediately go to heaven, hell, or purgatory?

A: Although physical human bodies die, human souls never die. The Church teaches that every spiritual soul "is immortal: It does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.

So at the moment of death, the soul separates from the body, is judged immediately, and enters either heaven (immediately or through purgatory) or hell. Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven—through a purification or immediately—or immediate and everlasting ****ation ( see Luke 16:22; 23:43; 2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23.)

Every soul will unite with its resurrected body just prior to the Last Judgment ("Judgment Day") when Christ returns: In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man’s relationship with God will be laid bare. The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life . . .

The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God’s justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God’s love is stronger than death.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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I believe the soul is immortal only in the sense that it cannot be destroyed by man, but as scripture says, the soul can be destroyed by God in hell. Therefore it is not immortal per se. But God can kill a soul, and I believe he destroys the soul in the Lake of Fire which is rightly called the second death. This kind of fire is apt to destroying spiritual/soul beings, which is why I believe satan and all his evil angels and demons are thrown into this fire as well, it can destroy them permanently and for good.
 

Sharp

Senior Member
May 5, 2009
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#5
I believe the soul is immortal only in the sense that it cannot be destroyed by man, but as scripture says, the soul can be destroyed by God in hell. Therefore it is not immortal per se. But God can kill a soul, and I believe he destroys the soul in the Lake of Fire which is rightly called the second death. This kind of fire is apt to destroying spiritual/soul beings, which is why I believe satan and all his evil angels and demons are thrown into this fire as well, it can destroy them permanently and for good.
Hey MS

Thats interesting.

Matthew 10:28 appears to suggest God can destroy the soul in Hell. But will He? Mark 9:48 says the fire will not be quenched. Wouldn't allowing someone's punishment in hell to stop and letting that person cease to exist be letting them off the hook? I have always thought about how fair it is for someone to be eternally punished for rebellion against God over a 70-80 year period, particularly as the Bible says that God hardens peoples' hearts so that they don't understand or believe. But hey, God's world, God's rules, who am I to question them.
 
May 3, 2009
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Hey MS

Thats interesting.

Matthew 10:28 appears to suggest God can destroy the soul in Hell. But will He? Mark 9:48 says the fire will not be quenched. Wouldn't allowing someone's punishment in hell to stop and letting that person cease to exist be letting them off the hook? I have always thought about how fair it is for someone to be eternally punished for rebellion against God over a 70-80 year period, particularly as the Bible says that God hardens peoples' hearts so that they don't understand or believe. But hey, God's world, God's rules, who am I to question them.
It is a difficult question, that I suspect none of us has a reliable answer to. I lean towards believing that 'destruction of the soul" does not mean it is extinguished as an entity. There reason for my belief is Jesus' emphasis on HELL being eternal.


And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt. 10:28; see also Luke 12:5)

Jesus taught:
So not everyone will enter heaven: Some will be separated from God ("depart from me"). What is to become of them? Nothing good. This is what Jesus said about the fate of his betrayer: "The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born" (Matt. 26:24).

But even destruction, suffering, and wrath would be not be worse than never having been born if, after suffering such maladies, one could enter heaven. Jesus tells us that Hell is eternal. Jesus indicated this when he taught about his Second Coming:
When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, "Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.". . . Then he will say to those at his left hand, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.". . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (Matt. 25:31-46)
Also,
f your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:43-48; see also Matt. 5:29-30; 18:8-9)

In Christ
 
Jan 8, 2009
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The killing or destruction of the soul may not mean "cease to exist", but I don't know what happens when a soul "dies", does it lose all light and love, is it condemned to an eternity of torment of the soul. It appears so. Looking at those scriptures again it does appear that it is eternal torment which the devil etc will experience in the lake of fire, not a "cease to exist".
 
May 3, 2009
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#8
The killing or destruction of the soul may not mean "cease to exist", but I don't know what happens when a soul "dies", does it lose all light and love, is it condemned to an eternity of torment of the soul. It appears so. Looking at those scriptures again it does appear that it is eternal torment which the devil etc will experience in the lake of fire, not a "cease to exist".

I agree that eternal suffering is being suggested.
 
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MaggieMye

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#9
The soul, being composed of 'mind, will and emotion' dies at the time the physical body dies. There is no mind, will or emotion in a dead person. It is our SPIRIT that is eternal.
Maggie
 
May 3, 2009
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#10
The soul, being composed of 'mind, will and emotion' dies at the time the physical body dies. There is no mind, will or emotion in a dead person. It is our SPIRIT that is eternal.
Maggie

Christian doctrine holds it is immortal. If the individual goes to hell, then the soul is under eternal punishment.

The notion of separating "spirit" from "soul", appears to come from the Gnostics. In some greek philosophy, because flesh is considered inferior to spirit, they choose to separate the category of the soul of a redeemed person [saved], calling is pneuma; whereas, the soul of a living person [still in flesh] was referred to as pysche. This dualism of the soul has never been adopted by the Church. See my quoted passages in the thread.

Paul sometimes used the word "pneuma", and this has occasionally led some people to think he adopted the Gnostic classification of soul and spirit. But there are no grounds for accepting this interpretation of Paul's views.
 
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MaggieMye

Guest
#11
Don't think so! Where is Biblical support?
On the other hand, we read in His word that ONLY JESUS is immortal:
1 Tim 6:15-16

15which He will bring about at (A)the proper time--He who is (B)the blessed and (C)only Sovereign, (D)the King of kings and (E)Lord of lords, 16(F)who alone possesses immortality and (G)dwells in unapproachable light, (H)whom no man has seen or can see (I)To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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The soul is immortal I believe, or at least, it does not die when the body dies. It is true that the spirit goes to God at death, but so does that part of your soul which is immortal. Your spirit/soul is alive even though the body is dead. Jesus said those who kill the body cannot kill the soul, therefore the soul doesn't die at death.
 

BLC

Banned
Feb 28, 2009
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#13
Don't think so! Where is Biblical support?
On the other hand, we read in His word that ONLY JESUS is immortal:
1 Tim 6:15-16

15which He will bring about at (A)the proper time--He who is (B)the blessed and (C)only Sovereign, (D)the King of kings and (E)Lord of lords, 16(F)who alone possesses immortality and (G)dwells in unapproachable light, (H)whom no man has seen or can see (I)To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

MaggieMye,

I love your tenacity and you are such a fearless trooper in the Lord. Unless you are dealing with these individuals as part of your training exercise, let them fall flat on their faces. They do not offer the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and they say that the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord is not enough. They will be judged according to their works that denies the finished work of Christ and puts the burden of salvation on the sinner instead of grace that comes through faith in the cross of Christ. They are laying some heavy burdens on people by removing them from grace and putting an emphasis on the effort of the individual instead of the keeping power of the grace of God. It is better to avoid them and have no part with them.
 
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