The Jesus and Judas prophecy

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Scrobulous

Active member
Sep 17, 2018
285
72
28
#1
Dear friends,

In John 13:18 Jesus is predicting his betrayal.

"I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfil the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me' ...

This is a quote from Psalm 41:9. The 'he' in this verse is Judas and the 'my' in 'my bread' is Jesus.

BUT the person who speaks Psalm 41:9 also speaks Psalm 41:4 'I said, "Oh LORD, have mercy on me; heal me, for I have sinned against you"

So, how can this speaker be Jesus? He is confessing sin!

The implications of this are very important. How are we to identify Psalm 41:9 as a verse applying to Jesus (John 13:18) when the narrative contradicts this?

The thoughts of the Forum on this will be greatly appreciated!
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
27,072
8,025
113
#2
Just because we see a reference speaking of Christ in a passage does it mean everything there is a representation of Him? Adam is a type of Christ, as is Moses, and Samson and many others - but not everything about Adam's life, or Moses' or Samson's is prefiguiring Him.

So isn't it possible some of Psalm 41 prophesies of Christ and some of it speaks of David?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
17,124
3,752
113
#3
Help Me, O Lord My God
Psa 109:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. Hold not thy peace, O God of my praise;
Psa 109:2 For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue.
Psa 109:3 They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.
Psa 109:4 For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.
Psa 109:5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.
Psa 109:6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.
Psa 109:7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.
Psa 109:8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
Psa 109:9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
Psa 109:10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.
Psa 109:11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.
Psa 109:12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.
Psa 109:13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.
Psa 109:14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.
Psa 109:15 Let them be before the LORD continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.
Psa 109:16 Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart.
Psa 109:17 As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him: as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him.
Psa 109:18 As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones.
Psa 109:19 Let it be unto him as the garment which covereth him, and for a girdle wherewith he is girded continually.
Psa 109:20 Let this be the reward of mine adversaries from the LORD, and of them that speak evil against my soul.
Psa 109:21 But do thou for me, O GOD the Lord, for thy name's sake: because thy mercy is good, deliver thou me.
Psa 109:22 For I am poor and needy, and my heart is wounded within me.
Psa 109:23 I am gone like the shadow when it declineth: I am tossed up and down as the locust.
Psa 109:24 My knees are weak through fasting; and my flesh faileth of fatness.
Psa 109:25 I became also a reproach unto them: when they looked upon me they shaked their heads.
Psa 109:26 Help me, O LORD my God: O save me according to thy mercy:
Psa 109:27 That they may know that this is thy hand; that thou, LORD, hast done it.
Psa 109:28 Let them curse, but bless thou: when they arise, let them be ashamed; but let thy servant rejoice.
Psa 109:29 Let mine adversaries be clothed with shame, and let them cover themselves with their own confusion, as with a mantle.
Psa 109:30 I will greatly praise the LORD with my mouth; yea, I will praise him among the multitude.
Psa 109:31 For he shall stand at the right hand of the poor, to save him from those that condemn his soul.
 

JamOn

Well-known member
Jun 10, 2019
4,096
1,553
113
#4
Just because we see a reference speaking of Christ in a passage does it mean everything there is a representation of Him? Adam is a type of Christ, as is Moses, and Samson and many others - but not everything about Adam's life, or Moses' or Samson's is prefiguiring Him.

So isn't it possible some of Psalm 41 prophesies of Christ and some of it speaks of David?
Good point and probably other people in biblical days shared bread probably today also least I hope.

Like Jonah yet Jonah was a account of its own as well.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
14,096
1,329
113
#5
Dear friends,

In John 13:18 Jesus is predicting his betrayal.

"I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfil the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me' ...

This is a quote from Psalm 41:9. The 'he' in this verse is Judas and the 'my' in 'my bread' is Jesus.

BUT the person who speaks Psalm 41:9 also speaks Psalm 41:4 'I said, "Oh LORD, have mercy on me; heal me, for I have sinned against you"

So, how can this speaker be Jesus? He is confessing sin!

The implications of this are very important. How are we to identify Psalm 41:9 as a verse applying to Jesus (John 13:18) when the narrative contradicts this?

The thoughts of the Forum on this will be greatly appreciated!
Ahithophel, meaning brother of foolishness was Bathsheba' s father-in-law. David had his son Eliam. killed so that he could be with her.

Ahithophel conspired with Absolon to take away the Kingdom. Ahithophel comited suciside.

He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me' ...are those who appose the gospel.

Then said Absalom to Ahithophel, Give counsel among you what we shall do.And Ahithophel said unto Absalom, Go in unto thy father's concubines, which he hath left to keep the house; and all Israel shall hear that thou art abhorred of thy father: then shall the hands of all that are with thee be strong. Samuel 16:20
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
17,124
3,752
113
#6
Throw the stone then hide the hand.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
27,072
8,025
113
#7
Psalms 102:4
my heart is stricken and withered like grass, so that I forget to eat my bread.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
14,096
1,329
113
#8
My foot hath held his steps, his way have I kept, and not declined.Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.Job23:12
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
11,026
4,341
113
#9
How are we to identify Psalm 41:9 as a verse applying to Jesus (John 13:18) when the narrative contradicts this?
1. There are many prophecies with double applications. That is not contradiction.
2. There are many prophecies where the prophet speaks and the LORD also speaks.
3. There are many prophecies where both near and far events are juxtaposed side by side.
4. There are many other prophecies of the betrayal of Christ by Judas to confirm the above.
 

Scrobulous

Active member
Sep 17, 2018
285
72
28
#10
1. There are many prophecies with double applications. That is not contradiction.
2. There are many prophecies where the prophet speaks and the LORD also speaks.
3. There are many prophecies where both near and far events are juxtaposed side by side.
4. There are many other prophecies of the betrayal of Christ by Judas to confirm the above.
You are right on all counts.
The contradiction I referred to was that if Jesus is speaking in a prophecy, it would be a contradiction if he confessed to sin. Jesus was sinless and no one is disputing this. My point is that if you read the Psalm, verse 9 says that 'my close friend, whom I trusted' and the person speaking here is clearly Jesus for this prophecy to make sense in John 13:18. But the person speaking in verse 9 is the same person who starts speaking in verse 4. The narrative is continuous. Can the same words belong to two people at the same time? If so, then it is very difficult to understand what is going on. A person can then draw all kinds of illogical conclusions if the basic rules of language are not followed. How do we deal with Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons? I think the bible does not set out to confuse. It obeys normal linguistic rules.
You can say that Jesus interpreted this scripture in John, so we know the Psalm applied to him, but surely you see that this would be a case where Jesus uses special knowledge, not open to the rest of us. If that is so, how can God blame us for not understanding the scriptures, that speak of him?
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
14,096
1,329
113
#11
You are right on all counts.
The contradiction I referred to was that if Jesus is speaking in a prophecy, it would be a contradiction if he confessed to sin. Jesus was sinless and no one is disputing this. My point is that if you read the Psalm, verse 9 says that 'my close friend, whom I trusted' and the person speaking here is clearly Jesus for this prophecy to make sense in John 13:18. But the person speaking in verse 9 is the same person who starts speaking in verse 4. The narrative is continuous. Can the same words belong to two people at the same time? If so, then it is very difficult to understand what is going on. A person can then draw all kinds of illogical conclusions if the basic rules of language are not followed. How do we deal with Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons? I think the bible does not set out to confuse. It obeys normal linguistic rules.
You can say that Jesus interpreted this scripture in John, so we know the Psalm applied to him, but surely you see that this would be a case where Jesus uses special knowledge, not open to the rest of us. If that is so, how can God blame us for not understanding the scriptures, that speak of him?
Close friend must of been in respect to Ahithophel and not the future Judas . If Jesus had one it would seem to have been John. But unlike David Jesus had direct communication with his Father as close friends .

2 Samuel 16:23 And the counsel of Ahithophel, which he counselled in those days, was as if a man had enquired at the oracle of God: so was all the counsel of Ahithophel both with David and with Absalom.

Both are used to represent the doctrine of the "spirit of judgement" according to the letter of the law. Both committed suicide. Judas an apostle was set aside to be used in the description of the bride of Christ in Revelation 21 just as the tribe of Dan .Both purposely missing to represent the unseen "spirit of judgement" according to the letter of the law. . .
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
11,026
4,341
113
#12
The contradiction I referred to was that if Jesus is speaking in a prophecy, it would be a contradiction if he confessed to sin.
That is correct. So then we must conclude that those words do not apply to Christ, and that while some of the verses may be applicable to Him, others are applicable to the Psalmist.

PSALM 41
1 (To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.) Blessed is he that considereth the poor: the LORD will deliver him in time of trouble.
[DOUBLE APPLICATION]
2 The LORD will preserve him, and keep him alive; and he shall be blessed upon the earth: and thou wilt not deliver him unto the will of his enemies. [DOUBLE APPLICATION]
3The LORD will strengthen him upon the bed of languishing: thou wilt make all his bed in his sickness. [NOT APPLICABLE]
4 I said, LORD, be merciful unto me: heal my soul; for I have sinned against thee. [NOT APPLICABLE]
5 Mine enemies speak evil of me, When shall he die, and his name perish? [DOUBLE APPLICATION]
6 And if he come to see me, he speaketh vanity: his heart gathereth iniquity to itself; when he goeth abroad, he telleth it. [DOUBLE APPLICATION]
7 All that hate me whisper together against me: against me do they devise my hurt. [DOUBLE APPLICATION]
8 An evil disease, say they, cleaveth fast unto him: and now that he lieth he shall rise up no more. [NOT APPLICABLE]
9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me. [DOUBLE APPLICATION]
10 But thou, O LORD, be merciful unto me, and raise me up, that I may requite them. [DOUBLE APPLICATION]
11 By this I know that thou favourest me, because mine enemy doth not triumph over me. [DOUBLE APPLICATION]
12 And as for me, thou upholdest me in mine integrity, and settest me before thy face for ever. [DOUBLE APPLICATION]
13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
44,869
18,438
113
#13
Dear friends,

In John 13:18 Jesus is predicting his betrayal.

"I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfil the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me' ...

This is a quote from Psalm 41:9. The 'he' in this verse is Judas and the 'my' in 'my bread' is Jesus.

BUT the person who speaks Psalm 41:9 also speaks Psalm 41:4 'I said, "Oh LORD, have mercy on me; heal me, for I have sinned against you"

So, how can this speaker be Jesus? He is confessing sin!

The implications of this are very important. How are we to identify Psalm 41:9 as a verse applying to Jesus (John 13:18) when the narrative contradicts this?

The thoughts of the Forum on this will be greatly appreciated!
David wrote the Psalms as songs for the temple...MANY are blended with David's life and also point to JESUS.......God does this ALL over the O.T......using present circumstances when penned to foretell prophetic events.....