The Kerygma - God's Requirement for Salvation

[Pilgrimshope]

Key word in James 2:14 is "says/claims" to have faith but has no works and then James asks, "can that faith save him?" That would be an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

It’s when we say we have faith but then won’t do the work.

“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can that faith save him?

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

But wilt thou know, O vein man, that faith without works is dead?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14, 19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He’s making a comp here between a dead body without a spirit and faith without works

“For as the body without the spirit is dead,

so faith without works is dead also.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We have to believe first but the works do come before us to walk in after belief

 

[GWH]

The main problem with the preceding discussion IMO is that y'all are not considering the content or object of faith. Saving faith is not blind or devoid of meaning, but the meaning does need to be compiled from various statements, because even the writers of Scripture faced the challenge of saying GRFS clearly, completely and concisely. I glean from them the following meaning of saving faith:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) when they reject God’s salvation or DOD (JN 3:18).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ or the way (means of providing salvation) that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11), although pre-NT truthseekers could/can learn a proto-gospel via general revelation combined with conscience.
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning God’s Word everyone cooperates fully with His will (RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).

Now, the discussion of James pertains to point #4: faith in Jesus as Lord means obeying His law of love. Thus, a person who claims to be godly but who is behaving in an ungodly (unloving, untruthful) manner may be in one of the following categories:

a. a normally loving person observed during a rare moment when he/she acted uncharacteristically (PHP 3:12-16),

b. an immature Believer, who is making progress–you should have known him/her a year ago! (1CR 3:1-3, EPH 4:11-15)

c. a truthseeker who has not yet learned the correct interpretation of God’s Word (1CR 6:9-11, EPH 5:8-9), or

d. a pseudo-Christian (MT 7:21), who may affirm morality while rejecting its divine rationale.

 

[GWH]

Your verse citations are not helpful without the accompanying text. But I agree if you
are saying man is enabled. The natural man is not able. It is certainly what the text says.

Surely you have a Bible!? (I wonder what happens when you google verse IDs)

 

[Magenta]

it seems like we aren’t understanding each other sister. I was going to respond to some other stuff in your comment the longer one I appreciated that length

Yes, I feel a need to explain myself more fully perhaps seldom, and you do elicit that from me. About the other issue... it is exactly because some of the false charges that person has brought against me, the same ones as from over two years ago, that I resolved to show at times to some the lengths I go in designing the panels, so people know I am not just taking something someone else made and slapping my name on it and tada! Some of the designs have taken many hours, days, and weeks to complete. Most do take quite a bit of time. Even just selecting the font and font effects is time consuming, and I edit almost everything added in one way or another. I suppose because they are so vastly ignorant on how much time I spend doing that, they think I have hours every day to spend posting as other people here as well as multiple other people across the web. The level/depth of their deception is staggering.

 

[Magenta]

Surely you have a Bible!? (I wonder what happens when you google verse IDs)

Surely you jest. I have seen full paragraphs from you of just these awfully
abbreviated verse citations with no accompanying text. Not helpful at all.

 

[GWH]

Surely you jest. I have seen full paragraphs from you of just these awfully
abbreviated verse citations with no accompanying text. Not helpful at all.

Well, one of the things I enjoy about CC is that it prompts me to search the Scriptures, but if you don't like doing that I will type them up for you.

 

[mailmandan]

It’s when we say we have faith but then won’t do the work.

“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can that faith save him?

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

But wilt thou know, O vein man, that faith without works is dead?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14, 19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He’s making a comp here between a dead body without a spirit and faith without works

“For as the body without the spirit is dead,

so faith without works is dead also.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We have to believe first but the works do come before us to walk in after belief

Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith. All genuine believers are fruitful but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

In James 2:18, we read that the devils believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/ have faith in/trust and reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead.

If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Aye, I am simply pointing out that it has been said by some and such things applauded by others and some of them most certainly ARE in this very thread, and, those who have claimed God is unfair if He does something for one person and does not do the exact same thing for everyone else. But I do not hear of many burning bush experiences, though I do hear people wishing for such, seriously! Nor do we get very many attesting to a road to Damascus experience. So we know for a FACT which is affirmed through Scripture, and many more than I gave examples for, that God reveals Himself to some in ways He does not do for everyone despite those who deny such, or claim He is unfair IF He does as if He does not. Plus, I do not understand some of your typos sometimes haha, what is the honk for? .

I am back home from coffee, it was a lovely little outing

“Plus, I do not understand some of your typos sometimes haha, what is the honk for? .”

hahaha yes yes “ I didn’t catch that one in time lol I wish there was like ten min for corrections with my setup here with my pad and slider. It’s becoming harder to use my arthritis is spreading into my wrists so sometimes it hurts and i don’t get to it in time

“ honk “ is usually” think “ as far as I can tell hahahaha

“God reveals Himself to some in ways He does not do for everyone despite those who deny such, or claim He is unfair”

well yes sister absolutely I agree with that. And that he does specific things like Paul’s road to Damascus experience but that was done to advance the fospel to the people as all the apostles were appointed to do as his witnesses

“But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, to open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭26:16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m definately not saying God is unfair or can’t do specific things or choose people for specific roles in his plan of salvstion at all I’m saying that’s not how salvation works . And that anyone in the world can be saved if they hear the real gospel Jesus sent and believe and respond to it in faith

sand he doesn’t only make some able to believe but anyone can some don’t of course some reject it some don’t take it seriously others believe and pursue it

I think we can see people of faith in the beginning as well

“But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood;

…. And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. …..Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:8-9, 13-14, 17-18, 22‬ ‭

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house;

by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Think how motivated to move we would be if we heard and believed Gods warnings and instructions in the gospel sister like Noah did.

 

[Magenta]

Well, one of the things I enjoy about CC is that it prompts me to search the Scriptures, but if you don't like doing that I will type them up for you.

Do you completely ignore the fact that you post way too many at once to lend understanding
as to what you are even attempting to convey? Sure, pretend it is all my fault I have no desire
to search the Scriptures. But do please type them out, I beg you, for everybody's sake. Thank you.

 

[Magenta]

“God reveals Himself to some in ways He does not do for everyone despite those who deny such, or claim He is unfair”

well yes sister absolutely I agree with that. And that he does specific things like Paul’s road to Damascus experience but that was done to advance the fospel to the people as all the apostles were appointed to do as his witnesses

“But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, to open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭26:16-18‬ ‭KJV

Just got this far so far, to comment yes, it does seem that whatever we experience it is to advance us forward in His plans for our life, He knows exactly what each requires at what time, so even though we experience different things, or God in different ways, always it is to advance the Truth. Paul was amazing to be sure, there are none like him, but we are all sent to proclaim the good news, are we not?

 

[GWH]

Well, one of the things I enjoy about CC is that it prompts me to search the Scriptures, but if you don't like doing that I will type them up for you.

DT 30:19, "This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live."

MT 23:37, "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."

JN 3:16, :For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

1TM 2:3b-4, "God our Savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

Any others?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith. All genuine believers are fruitful but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

In James 2:18, we read that the devils believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/ have faith in/trust and reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead.

If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

“As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life.”

sooo your saying ….

“For as the body without the spirit is dead,

so faith without works is dead also.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

?

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

….Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:17, 20-22, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

i think James entire teaching there should be read it’s meant to be learned and considered I just quoted a few lines showing what he’s explaining

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. ……( then he elxolans and uses Abraham as example and concludes ) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:17, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬
But yes we have to hear and believe first or we’ll never act right in our deeds or ““ bear fruit “”

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Just got this far so far, to comment yes, it does seem that whatever we experience it is to advance us forward in His plans for our life, He knows exactly what each requires at what time, so even though we experience different things, or God in different ways, always it is to advance the Truth. Paul was amazing to be sure, there are none like him, but we are all sent to proclaim the good news, are we not?

Sure I’d say that all believers should share the gospel so others can “ be drawn “ to Jesus and salvation

i think we shouldn’t remove the things that are harder to hear either however and say “ that’s not good news “ ( not you ) others do that in tbe world tho

yes imagine a man now days trying to add to scripture our own writings with the apostles . Immediately it’s unacceptable I think that tells me anyways alot about the apostles

“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭

consider he told the eleven and Paul this part and now today we have the Bible written by some of them that still carries thier witness to the ends of the earth and all over the world

she surely uses and chooses certain men like the twelve apostles or like Moses or Elijah or isiah or Elisha or Aaron ect David another good example

He even chooses the men to carry out his wrath like nebucadnezzar or Darius or xerxes or Alexander the Great or the rulers of Romes succession

when it comes to salvation it’s open to all people the gospel can save anyone who repents and believes

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Just got this far so far, to comment yes, it does seem that whatever we experience it is to advance us forward in His plans for our life, He knows exactly what each requires at what time, so even though we experience different things, or God in different ways, always it is to advance the Truth. Paul was amazing to be sure, there are none like him, but we are all sent to proclaim the good news, are we not?

Sorry sis I gotta dr appt I’m out of here

 

[Magenta]

I’m definately not saying God is unfair or can’t do specific things or choose people for specific roles in his plan of salvstion at all I’m saying that’s not how salvation works . And that anyone in the world can be saved if they hear the real gospel Jesus sent and believe and respond to it in faith

Yes, just commenting there to say it has been said and for certain by at least one who is definitely in this thread. They say God is unfair IF He does the very thing Scripture shows again and again that He does do. And they applaud ideas like God kidnaps people against their will to act unilaterally, as if He never did that nor should He, after all, how dare God act sovereignly? Yes, they impugn His character even on that point, as if Scripture does not plainly say God will do all He pleases, while at the same time elevating man and claiming he is not that bad that he requires intervention. Goodness. One could be excused for thinking such a person has never read the Bible. Still they consider themselves an expert.

 

[Lamar]

James 2:24 (CEB) - So you see that a person is shown to be righteous through faithful actions and not through faith alone.

James 2:24 (EHV) - You see that a person is shown to be righteous by works and not by faith alone.

James 2:24 (NLT) - So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.

James 2:24 (TLV) - You see that a man is proved righteous by works and not by faith alone.

James 2:24 (AMP) - You see that a man (believer) is justified by works and not by faith alone [that is, by acts of obedience a born-again believer reveals his faith].

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) - Perfect harmony.

Thank you for the effort in responding with your examples.

It does seem that your explanation is more convincing then your examples.

If left to itself you would be correct but the flow and form of the Bible has always been mankind obeying God and God blessing mankind because of his obedience.

I see your error as such:

You are like others are viewing such verses as Romans 4:5-6 and Ephesians 2:8-9 as all-encompassing in nature.

They are at best true but general statements about the need for faith in salvation. They cannot be used to negate more distinct and definite statements on the same subject.

Since the nature of faith is not defined in your verses does that allow someone to believe/trust in whatever "Jesus" they want to accept? Of course not.

The proper faith in Jesus must be rightly understood. If that faith can only be fulfilled by obedience who are we to say otherwise.