The key to the Pre-Trib Rapture:

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cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#1
2 Thess 2:3
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

2 Thess 2:6
And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

2 Thess 2:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Our departure a.k.a. Rapture has nothing whatever to do with seven years of signs and escalating judgments. It is definitively linked to the man of sin being revealed, and must needs occur beforehand. That's it and that's all.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
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#2
In the 10 virgin ( rapture) parable they were warned or alerted that the groom ( Jesus ) was just down the road and would arrive soon (my impression is, within the hour).
It seems reasonable to me that we will get that same warning.

A week, a month, a day.
Maybe that same warning they got. One hour.

I find it uncanny that the foolish were exactly like the wise in every detail but the oil and vessels.

No oil.....no go.

Martyrdom time.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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#3
2 Thess 2:3
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

2 Thess 2:6
And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

2 Thess 2:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Our departure a.k.a. Rapture has nothing whatever to do with seven years of signs and escalating judgments. It is definitively linked to the man of sin being revealed, and must needs occur beforehand. That's it and that's all.
The Heresy of (Thomas Ice) Dallas Theological Alumni

His False Teaching (A Falling Away/Apostasia) means a rapture of the Church to heaven

As Strongs clearly shows, (Apostasia) "defection from truth", "apostasy"

Not a rapture of the church to heaven, as Thomas Ice falsely teaches.


2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Strong’s Definitions
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G646; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#4
[quoting old post of mine]

It is eisegesis to INJECT "from the faith" into this word.

In other contexts (during that same era) this word was used in "the departing of a boat from a dock" and "the departing of a fever" (that is, a spatial/geographical "departure"... and even its verb form is used something like 13 of its 15 occurrences in such a way, i.e. the MAJORITY of times [ex: "... and forthwith the angel departed [G868] from him." Acts 12:10c])


CONTEXT determines just WHAT KIND of "departure".

Not ALL of its usages refer to departing from some "faith issue".

In Acts 21:21 it refers to "a departure FROM MOSES" (but not in THIS text under discussion, 2Th2:3). It is up to the reader to view the CONTEXT to tell "WHAT KIND" of departure.

[quoting from BibleHub... re: the NOUN G646]

"646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure [...] – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing.""

[end quoting from BibleHub; bold and underline mine (and don't forget, THIS CONTEXT [2Th2:3] has the DEFINITE ARTICLE ['the'] with the word!, whereas Acts 21:21 does not.)]


Note ^ : everything outside of the parenthesis ^ (at the BibleHub quote) is DIRECTLY ABOUT the NOUN G646 - apostasía

Link: Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) - https://biblehub.com/greek/646.htm [scroll down to find "Strong's"]

____________

Here's the lexicon info (for G646):

[quoting]

Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon (1889) -

ἀποστασία late form of ἀπόστασις

[this ^ says: "apostasia late form for apostasis" (i.e. it's the SAME WORD... "apo stasis" - "a standing away from [a previous standing]")]

Then when you go to the entry for "apostasis" (it says under that entry):

ἀπόστασις ἀφίσταμαι

a standing away from, and so,

1.a defection, revolt, ἀπό τινος or τινος Hdt., Thuc.; πρός τινα Thuc.

2.departure from, βίου Eur.

3.distance, interval, Plat.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:entry=a)po/stasis


[end quoting, bold and underline mine]

[end quoting old post]

____________

Good OP. ;)


Study it out, friends. = )
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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#5
[quoting old post of mine]

It is eisegesis to INJECT "from the faith" into this word.

In other contexts (during that same era) this word was used in "the departing of a boat from a dock" and "the departing of a fever" (that is, a spatial/geographical "departure"... and even its verb form is used something like 13 of its 15 occurrences in such a way, i.e. the MAJORITY of times [ex: "... and forthwith the angel departed [G868] from him." Acts 12:10c])


CONTEXT determines just WHAT KIND of "departure".

Not ALL of its usages refer to departing from some "faith issue".

In Acts 21:21 it refers to "a departure FROM MOSES" (but not in THIS text under discussion, 2Th2:3). It is up to the reader to view the CONTEXT to tell "WHAT KIND" of departure.

[quoting from BibleHub... re: the NOUN G646]

"646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure [...] – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing.""

[end quoting from BibleHub; bold and underline mine (and don't forget, THIS CONTEXT [2Th2:3] has the DEFINITE ARTICLE ['the'] with the word!, whereas Acts 21:21 does not.)]


Note ^ : everything outside of the parenthesis ^ (at the BibleHub quote) is DIRECTLY ABOUT the NOUN G646 - apostasía

Link: Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) - https://biblehub.com/greek/646.htm [scroll down to find "Strong's"]

____________

Here's the lexicon info (for G646):

[quoting]

Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon (1889) -

ἀποστασία late form of ἀπόστασις

[this ^ says: "apostasia late form for apostasis" (i.e. it's the SAME WORD)]

Then when you go to the entry for "apostasis" (it says under that entry):

ἀπόστασις ἀφίσταμαι

a standing away from, and so,

1.a defection, revolt, ἀπό τινος or τινος Hdt., Thuc.; πρός τινα Thuc.

2.departure from, βίου Eur.

3.distance, interval, Plat.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:entry=a)po/stasis


[end quoting, bold and underline mine]

[end quoting old post]

____________

Good OP. ;)


Study it out, friends. = )
As Strongs clearly shows, (Apostasia) "defection from truth", "apostasy"

Not a rapture of the church to heaven, as Thomas Ice falsely teaches.


2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Strong’s Definitions
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G646; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,016
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#6
As Strongs clearly shows, (Apostasia) "defection from truth", "apostasy"

Not a rapture of the church to heaven, as Thomas Ice falsely teaches.

2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Strong’s Definitions
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G646; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.
Do not fear there is no evidence that you will be included. If you do not desire to be with the Savior when judgment falls upon this world then you may stay and endure the tribulation with them.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Truth7t7

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May 19, 2020
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#7
Do not fear there is no evidence that you will be included. If you do not desire to be with the Savior when judgment falls upon this world then you may stay and endure the tribulation with them.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Rodger there isnt one scripture in Gods word that teaches of a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven, not one.

This is a false teaching, promoted by John N. Darby, and Adulterer C.I. Scofield in his 1909 reference bible, that was the greatest world influence, planting this false teaching

Scofields prodigy and student, (Lewis S. Chafer) founded Dallas Theological Cemetary, as an extension of the church Adulterer Scofield pastored.

Gods judgement will come upon the unsaved, (Unsealed) world during the tribulation, the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation Chapter 11 will bring plagues upon this world, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, and the church will be protected, just as the Hebrews were.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
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#8
I would believe in a pre-tribulation rapture if and only if that's what the Bible says. We have studied this topic, debated, and hashed out repeatedly on this message board.

Pre-tribulation rapture doesn't exist. Compare the texts of the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 & 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

The bottom line is there is no undoing what Matthew 24:29-31 says and what all other rapture verses confirm: a rapture occurs at the once and only second coming of Christ, at the last trumpet, immediately after the tribulation.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#9
Rodger there isnt one scripture in Gods word that teaches of a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven, not one.

This is a false teaching, promoted by John N. Darby, and Adulterer C.I. Scofield in his 1909 reference bible, that was the greatest world influence, planting this false teaching

Scofields prodigy and student, (Lewis S. Chafer) founded Dallas Theological Cemetary, as an extension of the church Adulterer Scofield pastored.

Gods judgement will come upon the unsaved, (Unsealed) world during the tribulation, the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation Chapter 11 will bring plagues upon this world, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, and the church will be protected, just as the Hebrews were.
Do you believe a part of the church will go through the tribulation?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
11,979
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#10
I would believe in a pre-tribulation rapture if and only if that's what the Bible says. We have studied this topic, debated, and hashed out repeatedly on this message board.

Pre-tribulation rapture doesn't exist. Compare the texts of the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 & 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

The bottom line is there is no undoing what Matthew 24:29-31 says and what all other rapture verses confirm: a rapture occurs at the once and only second coming of Christ, at the last trumpet, immediately after the tribulation.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Do you believe a part of the church will go through the tribulation?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#11
As Strongs clearly shows, (Apostasia) "defection from truth", "apostasy"
Not a rapture of the church to heaven, as Thomas Ice falsely teaches.
2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
"a falling away" is not in the text (<--which translation completely leaves off the DEFINITE ARTICLE "THE," which IS in the text).

The Greeks had a word for "a falling / to fall"... "pipto"... and this word (here in 2Th2:3) is NOT that word.

The word is "apostasia / apostasis [apo stasis - 'a standing away from (from a previous standing)']".




May the readers search out the definition for "stasis [/stasin]" [G4714] ^ and its NINE OCCURRENCES in Scripture (especially its NINTH occurrence - https://biblehub.com/greek/4714.htm ).

Do your own study, folks. ;)
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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#12
Do you believe a part of the church will go through the tribulation?
John as I clearly stated, there wont be a pre-trib rapture, the church will be present on earth and go through the tribulation.

Just as you stated, the 1800's brought about the Laodicean times I agree, and John N. Darby's dispensationalism 1850's in a pre-trib rapture was part of it.

John there isnt one scripture in Gods word that teaches of a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven, not one.

This is a false teaching, promoted by John N. Darby, and Adulterer C.I. Scofield in his 1909 reference bible, that was the greatest world influence, planting this false teaching

Scofields prodigy and student, (Lewis S. Chafer) founded Dallas Theological Cemetary, as an extension of the church Adulterer Scofield pastored.

Gods judgement will come upon the unsaved, (Unsealed) world during the tribulation, the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation Chapter 11 will bring plagues upon this world, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, and the church will be protected, just as the Hebrews were.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
1,401
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#13
Do you believe a part of the church will go through the tribulation?
The church in its entirety will be present for the great tribulation but will not be subject to God's wrath.

However, there will be other forces at work such as Satan and his anti-christ and his false prophet. These two individuals will persecute the entire world and the church. There will be people in the church who refuse to take the mark of the beast and consequently will be martyred for it.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
11,979
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#14
John as I clearly stated, there wont be a pre-trib rapture, the church will be present on earth and go through the tribulation.

Just as you stated, the 1800's brought about the Laodicean times I agree, and John N. Darby's dispensationalism 1850's in a pre-trib rapture was part of it.

John there isnt one scripture in Gods word that teaches of a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven, not one.

This is a false teaching, promoted by John N. Darby, and Adulterer C.I. Scofield in his 1909 reference bible, that was the greatest world influence, planting this false teaching

Scofields prodigy and student, (Lewis S. Chafer) founded Dallas Theological Cemetary, as an extension of the church Adulterer Scofield pastored.

Gods judgement will come upon the unsaved, (Unsealed) world during the tribulation, the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation Chapter 11 will bring plagues upon this world, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, and the church will be protected, just as the Hebrews were.
Well, in this scenario only a small portion of the church, the body of Christ, will be going through the tribulation. The majority of the church has already died and are in the presence of Jesus.

Will the members of His body be brought back to go through the tribulation?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
11,979
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#15
The church in its entirety will be present for the great tribulation but will not be subject to God's wrath.

However, there will be other forces at work such as Satan and his anti-christ and his false prophet. These two individuals will persecute the entire world and the church. There will be people in the church who refuse to take the mark of the beast and consequently will be martyred for it.
The majority of the church has already died and gone to be with the Lord. In your scenario, only a small portion of the church will go through the tribulation.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#16
[quoting from article]

"Translation History

"The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either “departure” or “departing.” They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).[[7] This supports the notion that the word truly means “departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’”[8] Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of “departure”?

"Most scholars say that no one knows the reason for the translation shift. However, a plausible theory has been put forth by Martin Butalla in his Master of Theology thesis produced at Dallas Theology Seminary in 1998.[9] It appears that the Catholic translation into English from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate known as the Rheims Bible (1576) was the first to break the translation trend. “Apostasia was revised from ‘the departure’ to ‘the Protestant Revolt,’” explains Butalla. “Revolution is the terminology still in use today when Catholicism teaches the history of the Protestant Reformation. Under this guise, apostasia would refer to a departure of Protestants from the Catholic Church.”[10] The Catholic translators appear eager to engage in polemics against the Reformation by even allowing it to impact Bible translation. By 1611, when then original version of the King James Bible came out, the translators changed the English translation tradition from “departure” to “falling away,” which implied “apostasy.” Such a change was a theological response to the Catholic notion that the Reformation was a revolt against the true church; instead, Protestants saw Catholic beliefs as “the falling away” or “the great apostasy.” This would mean that the shift in translation was not based upon research of the meaning of the original language but as a theological polemic against the false teachings of Romanism."

--Dr Thomas Ice, "The “Departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3", https://www.pre-trib.org/articles/all-articles/message/the-departure-in-2-thessalonians-2-3/read

[end quoting article; bold and underline mine]
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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#17
The church in its entirety will be present for the great tribulation but will not be subject to God's wrath.

However, there will be other forces at work such as Satan and his anti-christ and his false prophet. These two individuals will persecute the entire world and the church. There will be people in the church who refuse to take the mark of the beast and consequently will be martyred for it.
You project a tribulation where Satan rules, as Christian's run from Satan in fear of being martyred?

The bible teaches that the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation Chapter 11 will bring literal plagues upon the wicked world, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, the (Sealed) Church will be protected, just as the Hebrews were protected.

The Two Witnesses Rule The Tribulation, Not Satan, Dont Be Deceived.

Revelation 11:3-6KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

A Remake Of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, the Two Witnesses Are In Control, Through Gods Plagues In Judgement, don't be deceived.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#18
The majority of the church has already died and gone to be with the Lord. In your scenario, only a small portion of the church will go through the tribulation.
I must agree. (y)



[re: "the Church which is His body"--that is, all those saved "in this present age [singular]"... right! (y) (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])]






Thus, the following sentence cannot be accurate, in such a scenario:

The church in its entirety will be present for the great tribulation...
... unless one defines (as some do) "the great tribulation" as being the entire time period since the first century (which is inaccurate also).
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
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#19
The majority of the church has already died and gone to be with the Lord. In your scenario, only a small portion of the church will go through the tribulation.
Oh, I didn't know you meant every member of the church who has existed or will exist past-present-future.

I assumed we were working under the assumption that the whole church are people currently living/breathing and not deceased saints who are physically absent from the Earth.

The great tribulation only applies to the earth. It's unreasonable to include dead people in this scenario and then ding me for it when I couldn't read your mind.

Yeah. All church members who are alive at the time of the great tribulation will be present for it.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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#20
Well, in this scenario only a small portion of the church, the body of Christ, will be going through the tribulation. The majority of the church has already died and are in the presence of Jesus.

Will the members of His body be brought back to go through the tribulation?
John the 3.5 year tribulation starts when the (Man of Sin/Antichrist) is revealed to the world in Jerusalem, proclaiming to be God Messiah

The living church present on earth at this time will go through the 3.5 year tribulation.

I can't be any more descriptive than that, there will be no pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven, a false teaching of John N. Darby 1850's and promoted by Adulterer C.I. Scofield's 1909 reference bible, better known as (Dispensationalism)