The key to the Pre-Trib Rapture:

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Truth7t7

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#2.
If the rapture will take place in connection with the Lord’s posttribulational or LAST DAY coming, the subsequent separation of the sheep from the goats in Matthew 25:31 will be redundant. Separation will have taken place in the very act of translation.
Again......how does that make any sense?????
The sheep/goats is nothing more than a parable of the (Final Great White Throne Judgement) that ends in the sheep/saved entering eternal life and the goats/unsaved eternal punishment/damnation

This final judgement takes place on the (Last Day) John 12:48 at the second coming.

Matthew 25:46KJV
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
 

Truth7t7

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#3.
If all tribulation believers are raptured and glorified just prior to the inauguration of the millennial Kingdom, who then will populate and propagate the Kingdom? The Scriptures indicate that the living unbelievers will be judged at the end of the tribulation and removed from the earth in Matthew 13:41-42 & 25:4. Yet, they also teach that children will be born to believers during the millennium and that these children will be capable of sin as seen in Isaiah 65:20 and Revelation 20:7-10. Under your LAST DAY Resurrrection/Rapture This will not be possible if all believers on earth have been glorified through a posttribulational rapture.
Once Again, What Are You Going To Do With All That Fire Seen Below In Scripture, "At The Second Coming" Of Jesus Christ, Pretend Like It Dosent Exist? :giggle:

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved
, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God
, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
 

Truth7t7

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#4.
The posttribulational paradigm of the church being raptured on the LAST DAY and then immediately brought back to earth leaves no time for the Bema, ( the Judgment Seat of Christ) to occur as again seen i 1 Corth. 3:10-15, 2 Corth. 5:10, nor for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb as recorded in Revelation 19:6-10.

Because of these events I submitt to you my brother that it can be concluded that a posttribulational time of the rapture on the LAST DAY is incongruous with the sheep-goat nation judgment, and, in fact, eliminates two critical end-time events.

A pretribulational rapture avoids all of these difficulties.
The judgement you speak of in 1 Corinthians 3 will be by the Lords fire at the second coming,as seen in post #222 above

The marriage supper takes place in the Eternal kingdom, in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, "After" the second coming.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
 

Truth7t7

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Yes I am.

Matthew 27:51-53 ......
"At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people."

You ask a good question. As far as I know there are two thoughts on what happened to those saints.

#1.
After God brought the people mentioned back to life, they could have gone back to their homes, where many acquaintances saw them. It's hard to imagine how utterly startling such an experience would be for their relatives and friends!

The Bible says nothing further about these people God resurrected at Christ's death, leaving us to conclude that they eventually died (again) and their families buried them (again). Along with all other saints who died, they await in their graves their resurrection to spirit life at the Rapture.

#2.
The Bible teaches us that God will change the righteous dead along with living Christians to immortal beings when Jesus Christ returns.
Just like Jesus.....they could have received a glorified body and did not remain on the earth very long since the New Testament does not refer to them again. This would have been the 2nd Phase of the 1st Resurrection.
Those seen after the death of Jesus on Calvary, they were raised from the dead, hostas Lazarus and Tabitha were, they all died a physical death

As scripture clearly teaches,the resurrection and glorified body are seen in the 7th (Last Trump) at the second coming Last Day

Your opinions on those visiting relatives, and being resurrected, receiving glorified bodies, is adding to scripture in opinion and imagination.
 

Evmur

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I tend to agree with this the most, but it's complicated because now we're getting into the millennial kingdom (MK) discussion (sometimes turns into a debate).

During this period of 1,000 years the devil is bound up. Ok, so he won't be running around looking for people to devour like a lion. That means we're free from all demonic influence then, right?

So outside of demonic influence, what other sources of sin are there? Corrupted flesh.

But where I'm confused is if the MK is post-rapture, post first resurrection, and we have been "changed" then after this 1,000 year period Satan is unbound and comes back to deceive the nations. Can we be deceived again post-rapture?

so I guess my question is, if all of wicked got hit like a flood in the days of Noah at the return of Christ then the remaining people are Christians who were raptured and changed to an incorruptible body.

having said all this, I'm boiling down to these questions: is the MK a literal kingdom on our Earth? Will there be flesh and blood people in the MK alongside resurrected saints with glorified bodies? Or is the MK entirely spiritual occuring somewhere else that is not Earth?

Verses of interest: Revelation 16:17-21 (Seventh bowl of wrath)

before the MK is even mentioned God apparently levels the earth flat. So if the MK is earth then are they reigning for 1,000 years among ruins of the destroyed "great city?"
it is crucial to the subject because when they take out the 1, 000 years they conflate the Lord's second coming [for His church and to set up the kingdom] and His coming to judge the living and the dead. THAT is exactly why they make the mistake.

Paul does not speak about loud bangs and fervent heat, the Jerusalem crowd talk about those things, Paul talks about the creation being set free from it's bondage to decay.

Only Paul understood the rapture because only Paul understood that the church was to be planted among the nations, The others simply could not get their heads around it. The7y thought the world would come to Jerusalem just like the prophets say and they are not wrong that WILL happen in the millennium.

It is because the church is among the nations that she must be taken out before the wrath of God falls.
 

Evmur

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Please explain with scripture, how Israel is protected in their homeland "After" Gods wrath in fire, and the church has been removed?

On this earth, or in the new heaven and earth?

Who is this Israel, ethnic Jews?
They are the then converted ethnic Israel. Because when Nastypants comes to sit in the temple the nations come up with him, all those who have his mark. And Christ at His appearing destroys Antichrist and fights against the nations who are attacking Israel.
 

Evmur

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Can I ask what Church you attend? Any peculiar denomination?
I belong to an informal fellowship of grey heads we pray we study the scriptures and break bread together.

I am Pentecostalist by experience.
 

Kolistus

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Amillennialism forces one to ignore two thirds of the Bible. It is founded upon half a dozen misapprehended verses. Absolutely preposterous.
I only dealt with Revelation 20, but you are right if we go to the prophets the amillennialist is lost. He has to invent a new meaning to a lot of verses, and they have but the problem is they can't agree which one is the real meaning as everyone is making it up as they go along.

Jesus taught the disciples 40 days about the kingdom of God and after this the disciples asked LORD will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?

Now either the disciples were really REALLY dumb and the 40 days was a complete waste, or Jesus did indeed teach them there is a kingdom coming.
 

Runningman

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it is crucial to the subject because when they take out the 1, 000 years they conflate the Lord's second coming [for His church and to set up the kingdom] and His coming to judge the living and the dead. THAT is exactly why they make the mistake.

Paul does not speak about loud bangs and fervent heat, the Jerusalem crowd talk about those things, Paul talks about the creation being set free from it's bondage to decay.

Only Paul understood the rapture because only Paul understood that the church was to be planted among the nations, The others simply could not get their heads around it. The7y thought the world would come to Jerusalem just like the prophets say and they are not wrong that WILL happen in the millennium.

It is because the church is among the nations that she must be taken out before the wrath of God falls.
Thats because Peter says the Day of the Lord will come as a thief then the elements dissolve and there's a new heaven and earth where only righteousness dwell. 2 Peter 3:10-13

Then Paul says something similar in about the Day of the Lord coming like a thief when there is sudden destruction. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3

Jesus echos the same narrative. People are eating, drinking, and marrying like in the days before the flood then suddenly the flood came and washed them away. Then Jesus returns like a thief in the night. Matthew 24:36-43

Then Jesus says He comes as a thief in Revelation 16:15 so we should be expecting some sort of destructive event happening after He comes as a thief and then the destruction happens in Revelation 16:16-22.

Peter says the New Heaven and New Earth come after this destructive event with loud bangs and fervent heat in 2 Peter 3:10-13 and the event described in Revelation 16:16-22 would probably involve loud noises and heat since it involves thunder and lightning.

Now we're in track to get our prophesied New Heaven and Earth, but what comes by Revelation 20:1-6 is the 1,000 year millennial kingdom which is not mentioned anywhere else in the Bible.

Finally, the New Hevean and New Earth appear in Revelation 21:1-5 after the great white throne judgment Revelation 20:11-15.

The millennial kingdom is a bit of a curve ball, but we must factor it in because it's mentioned. So how it is factored in becomes a point of debate depending on your eschatological interpretation, but we should strive to let the Bible speak for itself under the belief it's the infallible written word of God.

The millennial kingdom is before the new heaven and earth. As noted in Revelation 16:16-22 the surface of the Earth was already leveled, the cities, and the great city fractured into three parts. The millennial kingdom happens among ruins or do they rebuild?

Then earth and heavens get made new anyway? It's possibly a parallel teaching of a previously stated concept. Does Matthew 3:23-27 ring any bells?

In conclusion, the millennial kingdom is either literal or not literal. People struggle to find a way to explain it. People usually interpret it based around their previous eschatological theology which is usually pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib rapture.
 

Absolutely

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it is crucial to the subject because when they take out the 1, 000 years they conflate the Lord's second coming [for His church and to set up the kingdom] and His coming to judge the living and the dead. THAT is exactly why they make the mistake.

Paul does not speak about loud bangs and fervent heat, the Jerusalem crowd talk about those things, Paul talks about the creation being set free from it's bondage to decay.

Only Paul understood the rapture because only Paul understood that the church was to be planted among the nations, The others simply could not get their heads around it. The7y thought the world would come to Jerusalem just like the prophets say and they are not wrong that WILL happen in the millennium.

It is because the church is among the nations that she must be taken out before the wrath of God falls.
Jesus placed the rapture pretrib.
 

Absolutely

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Thats because Peter says the Day of the Lord will come as a thief then the elements dissolve and there's a new heaven and earth where only righteousness dwell. 2 Peter 3:10-13

Then Paul says something similar in about the Day of the Lord coming like a thief when there is sudden destruction. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3

Jesus echos the same narrative. People are eating, drinking, and marrying like in the days before the flood then suddenly the flood came and washed them away. Then Jesus returns like a thief in the night. Matthew 24:36-43

Then Jesus says He comes as a thief in Revelation 16:15 so we should be expecting some sort of destructive event happening after He comes as a thief and then the destruction happens in Revelation 16:16-22.

Peter says the New Heaven and New Earth come after this destructive event with loud bangs and fervent heat in 2 Peter 3:10-13 and the event described in Revelation 16:16-22 would probably involve loud noises and heat since it involves thunder and lightning.

Now we're in track to get our prophesied New Heaven and Earth, but what comes by Revelation 20:1-6 is the 1,000 year millennial kingdom which is not mentioned anywhere else in the Bible.

Finally, the New Hevean and New Earth appear in Revelation 21:1-5 after the great white throne judgment Revelation 20:11-15.

The millennial kingdom is a bit of a curve ball, but we must factor it in because it's mentioned. So how it is factored in becomes a point of debate depending on your eschatological interpretation, but we should strive to let the Bible speak for itself under the belief it's the infallible written word of God.

The millennial kingdom is before the new heaven and earth. As noted in Revelation 16:16-22 the surface of the Earth was already leveled, the cities, and the great city fractured into three parts. The millennial kingdom happens among ruins or do they rebuild?

Then earth and heavens get made new anyway? It's possibly a parallel teaching of a previously stated concept. Does Matthew 3:23-27 ring any bells?

In conclusion, the millennial kingdom is either literal or not literal. People struggle to find a way to explain it. People usually interpret it based around their previous eschatological theology which is usually pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib rapture.
"""Jesus echos the same narrative. People are eating, drinking, and marrying like in the days before the flood then suddenly the flood came and washed them away. Then Jesus returns like a thief in the night. Matthew 24:36-43"""

Jesus framed the REMOVAL / RAPTURE preflood.

noah was not removed post flood.

nor was lot removed AFTER sodom burned.

your model of a post flood/ post burned destroyed sodom/post judgement or trib gathering or rapture is impossible.
 

Runningman

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"""Jesus echos the same narrative. People are eating, drinking, and marrying like in the days before the flood then suddenly the flood came and washed them away. Then Jesus returns like a thief in the night. Matthew 24:36-43"""

Jesus framed the REMOVAL / RAPTURE preflood.

noah was not removed post flood.

nor was lot removed AFTER sodom burned.

your model of a post flood/ post burned destroyed sodom/post judgement or trib gathering or rapture is impossible.
I'm not even talking about the rapture so much as I am talking about how eschatology interpretation has to include an interpretation about the millennial kingdom with it.

I honestly think you're projecting the pre-trib into scripture and then trying to make the Bible conform to your beliefs. Jesus says He returns post-tribulation. No amount of mental gymnastics and jumping through hoops changes it. So in my mind this debate is over about when the rapture is, but thanks anyway.

What do you think about the millennial kingdom?
 

cv5

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I belong to an informal fellowship of grey heads we pray we study the scriptures and break bread together.

I am Pentecostalist by experience.
Okay thank you. I have to tell you that my Pentecostal Church experiences had me walk away from that denomination. The doctrine was all over the place and seem to always miss the mark. Pretty scary actually.
 

Absolutely

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I understand your need to make the resurrection of the saints as a last day event.

Now consider the fact that Jesus said that NO ONE KNOWS the time of His 2nd Coming. I submitt to you that when the 7 year peace treaty is made effictive between the A/C and Israel....at that very moment, every single Christian who has a Bible KNOWS THAT IN 7 YEARS Jesus is coming again.

The "Post-tribulation" theory completly removes the "IMMINANT" return of Christ.

I can read that from your posts that you have done a lot of study to make your theology work. I would also say that the early church probably for its 1st 1500 years had the amilinial position, so you are in good company.

Now if you will take the time to read the rest of this I will ose 4 positions that will cause severe peoblems for your theology.

#1.
If God miraculously preserves the church through the tribulation, why have a rapture? If it is to avoid the wrath of God at Armageddon, then why would God not continue to protect the saints on earth (as is postulated by posttribulationism) just as He protected Israel in Ex. 8:22/9:4/26, 10:23 from the wrath He poured out on Pharaoh and Egypt. Further, if the purpose of the rapture is for living saints to avoid Armageddon, why also resurrect the saints who are already immune at the same time? Does that make any sense at all????

#2.
If the rapture will take place in connection with the Lord’s posttribulational or LAST DAY coming, the subsequent separation of the sheep from the goats in Matthew 25:31 will be redundant. Separation will have taken place in the very act of translation.
Again......how does that make any sense?????

#3.
If all tribulation believers are raptured and glorified just prior to the inauguration of the millennial Kingdom, who then will populate and propagate the Kingdom? The Scriptures indicate that the living unbelievers will be judged at the end of the tribulation and removed from the earth in Matthew 13:41-42 & 25:4. Yet, they also teach that children will be born to believers during the millennium and that these children will be capable of sin as seen in Isaiah 65:20 and Revelation 20:7-10. Under your LAST DAY Resurrrection/Rapture This will not be possible if all believers on earth have been glorified through a posttribulational rapture.

#4.
The posttribulational paradigm of the church being raptured on the LAST DAY and then immediately brought back to earth leaves no time for the Bema, ( the Judgment Seat of Christ) to occur as again seen i 1 Corth. 3:10-15, 2 Corth. 5:10, nor for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb as recorded in Revelation 19:6-10.

Because of these events I submitt to you my brother that it can be concluded that a posttribulational time of the rapture on the LAST DAY is incongruous with the sheep-goat nation judgment, and, in fact, eliminates two critical end-time events.

A pretribulational rapture avoids all of these difficulties.
Rev 14 forever destroys the postrib rapture theory that was birthed in the early church under the prism of a destroyed and scattered israel .

IOW where is my origin of study?

The postrib rapture belief originated in a confused setting.
Israel no longer a nation. A scattered israel.
They were decieved.

Israel became a nation once more. Forever changing the face of perception.

That and rev 14 forever kicks out any hope for a postrib rapture.

Postrib rapture is forever destroyed by rev 14.

It can not happen.
 

Absolutely

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I'm not even talking about the rapture so much as I am talking about how eschatology interpretation has to include an interpretation about the millennial kingdom with it.

I honestly think you're projecting the pre-trib into scripture and then trying to make the Bible conform to your beliefs. Jesus says He returns post-tribulation. No amount of mental gymnastics and jumping through hoops changes it. So in my mind this debate is over about when the rapture is, but thanks anyway.

What do you think about the millennial kingdom?
lol.
I am posting in a rapture thread.
The mk is another subject.

You guys can no longer ignore and reframe verses.

I call it out.

You guys deflect

Repeat.

I PROVE the pretrib rapture hands down.

No contest

Incorporate my verses and postrib rapture is doa.

Very simple.

That is why you guys MUST DEFLECT.

The thread is on the rapture.
I am right on target...right down the middle.

Pssst...more verses are better...that is why my position is correct.

I do my homework.
I test fit.
100% postrib rapture fails when my verses are incorporated. 100%
 

Truth7t7

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They are the then converted ethnic Israel. Because when Nastypants comes to sit in the temple the nations come up with him, all those who have his mark. And Christ at His appearing destroys Antichrist and fights against the nations who are attacking Israel.
1.) You believe (All) Israel will be saved, meaning Ethnic Jews?

2.) You believe in a future (Literal) Millennial Kingdom on this earth, with mortal humans present "After" the second coming of Jesus Christ?

3.) If so, you believe Israel will be the focus of this Millennial Kingdom on this earth?
 

Truth7t7

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The7y thought the world would come to Jerusalem just like the prophets say and they are not wrong that WILL happen in the millennium.

It is because the church is among the nations that she must be taken out before the wrath of God falls.
The world will come to Jerusalem during the Millennium?

1. Does this Millennium take place upon this earth "After" the second coming?

2. If Yes Above, Will Israel/Jerusalem be the focal point of this Millennial Kingdom, On This earth?
 

Truth7t7

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I only dealt with Revelation 20, but you are right if we go to the prophets the amillennialist is lost. He has to invent a new meaning to a lot of verses, and they have but the problem is they can't agree which one is the real meaning as everyone is making it up as they go along.

Jesus taught the disciples 40 days about the kingdom of God and after this the disciples asked LORD will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?

Now either the disciples were really REALLY dumb and the 40 days was a complete waste, or Jesus did indeed teach them there is a kingdom coming.
There is a Kingdom coming, in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, Eternity!

There Won't Be A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Earth By Fire.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
 

Truth7t7

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lol.
I am posting in a rapture thread.
The mk is another subject.

You guys can no longer ignore and reframe verses.

I call it out.

You guys deflect

Repeat.

I PROVE the pretrib rapture hands down.

No contest

Incorporate my verses and postrib rapture is doa.

Very simple.

That is why you guys MUST DEFLECT.

The thread is on the rapture.
I am right on target...right down the middle.

Pssst...more verses are better...that is why my position is correct.

I do my homework.
I test fit.
100% postrib rapture fails when my verses are incorporated. 100%
Gibberish, without scriptural support.