The key to the Pre-Trib Rapture:

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cv5

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Jesus says what the beginning of birth pains are and when the end [of birth pains] comes with the preaching of ths gospel to all nations.

The next phase is the great tribulation which begins with the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. Then there shall be great tribulation such as has never been seen before.

The end of the great tribulation is marked by the return of Christ who first touches down upon the Earth on Mount Zion to meet His 144K people as shown in Revelation 14:1.

After Christ meets His 144K on Earth at Mount Zion, as noted in Revelation 14, they are raptured to the throne to sing praises. This is why they are known as first fruits.

Then, in step with Matthew 24, Jesus sends out His angels to gather His elect from the rest of the Earth. This is the completed rapture and it is also known as the harvest of the wheat and the tares.

Since this is a chronological sequence of events there's no other conclusion that Jesus returns post-tribulation. I think He made every effort to say this, including stating point blank that He returns after the tribulation of those days.

Read Matthew 24, understanding it's a chronological sequence of events.
You fail to understand (as do most) that Matt 24 & Mark 13 refer to Dan 9 and 12. Purely Israelite prophecies.....to Jews alone.

No Christians to be found there. No Christians on earth during the 70th week of Daniel. For that and many many other reasons.
 

Truth7t7

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I agree that it isn't only the 144K who go to heaven, but they are the first fruits of the rapture as far as I can tell. I'm also not a Jehovah's Witness. Far from it! They quote the Bible, too, and probably get some things right from time to time, but the bulk majority of it is wrong.

I'll let Revelation 14:1-4 speak for itself.
There will be one future resurrection of all as I have shown you, John 5:28-29, at this time those that lived and died in faith receive their glorified bodies, this takes place on (The Last Day) John 6:39-40, This (Last Day) is the time of final judgement John 12:48

There arent multiple resurrections, at different times as you suggest
 

Truth7t7

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You fail to understand (as do most) that Matt 24 & Mark 13 refer to Dan 9 and 12. Purely Israelite prophecies.....to Jews alone.

No Christians to be found there. No Christians on earth during the 70th week of Daniel. For that and many many other reasons.
Luke 21 is a parallel teaching of Matthew 24 & Mark 13, it's amazing how you conveniently excluded it :giggle:

Luke 21 is written to the church, that will be present on earth during the tribulation, and present to witness the second coming.

Luke 21:25-28KJV

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
 
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One very obvious reason to suspect that you might possibly be wrong about some of the details of your eschatology is when you realize that you are grieving the Holy Spirit by arguing about it like an immature elementary grade school child. :unsure:
 
S

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One very obvious reason to suspect that you might possibly be wrong about some of the details of your eschatology is when you realize that you are grieving the Holy Spirit by arguing about it like an immature elementary grade school child. :unsure:

If you can do that without loosing any sleep over it, isn't it possible that since you are ignoring the voice of the Spirit that would tell you not to do that, then it is also possible that you might not be hearing the voice of the Spirit in your eschatological interpretations?

I mean why be so dogmatically confident about the exactness of your eschatological interpretation, when you keep sinning in the light by your immature arguing? If you can do that without conviction, it is a good indication that you spiritual ears are plugged to the voice of the Spirit. And if so then why be so sure about your prophecy theories?

Learn to present your theories with scriptures and the rules of hermeneutics and if someone still does not agree let it go. Or learn to present your hermeneutics in such a way that edifies those that read them and if they still don't agree, others who read your post will be edified.

If you fall into the sin of childish rhetoric then whatever you had to say will become suspect anyway.
 

cv5

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You fail to understand (as do most) that Matt 24 & Mark 13 refer to Dan 9 and 12. Purely Israelite prophecies.....to Jews alone.

No Christians to be found there. No Christians on earth during the 70th week of Daniel. For that and many many other reasons.
Very bad manners to red X people my friend. We don't do that on this board any longer. I know that I have refrained and will no longer take such an action. Ever again.
 

Evmur

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Greetings Evmur,

Actually, the word 'departure' is a valid translation for 'apostasia,' however, it must retain the meaning of the Greek word that it is derived from. What they are trying to do, is take the the word departure and then change its meaning to mean depart up into the air to meet the Lord. If they want to use that word as a translation, then it would have to mean departure from their stand in faith and not blasting off into the sky. I tried to explain to them, that they are just blatantly ignoring the definition of the word and its usage in Acts 21:21.

Paul begins with "the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him," followed by "the Day of the Lord,' also referred to as 'that day.'

That said, it is the Day of the Lord (the time of God's wrath) that will not have come until the the apostacy and the man of lawlessness is revealed.

The gathering of the church initiates the Day of the Lord in that, once the church is gone then the apostacy will have occurred and the man of lawlessness will be revealed.



Totally agree with what you said above and have said the very same thing.

All one has to do is to look at the definition of the word 'apostasia' and its translated synonyms such as 'rebellion, defection, revolt, forsake, desertion and fall away." It is therefore not possible to force 'apostasia' to mean to departure up into the air?
Yo.

The only excuse I can find for Darby is that when he developed his end times scheme it must have all seemed far off into the future, the Jews were not back in their homeland.

One remark I would make is an important one, the revealing of Nastypants comes before the coming of the Lord, not simultaneous or after. He has already had his career of opposing everything god so called and everything worshipped as God.

This is the great end times persecution we are warned to expect ....persecution, trouble .... tribulation.

He is seated in the temple declaring that he is himself God and is destroyed by the coming and power of the Lord.

So it is his end not his beginning.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

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2 Thess 2:3
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

2 Thess 2:6
And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

2 Thess 2:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Our departure a.k.a. Rapture has nothing whatever to do with seven years of signs and escalating judgments. It is definitively linked to the man of sin being revealed, and must needs occur beforehand. That's it and that's all.
What is retraining you from seeing the man of lawlessness?
Yes I'm talking to you! Who is restraining you from seeing the man of lawlessness?

Answer: You.
It is YOU who restrains you from seeing who the man of lawlessness is.
If you would just get out of your own way it would be plain to see. He is in the news most every day. Everyone knows about him.

Let not yourself deceive you.

But, is your salvation contingent on you correctly seeing who the man of lawlessness is? No. Because if it was yes then your salvation would be based on works.
 

Evmur

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It's not that it *always* refers to "judgment" (and "judgment" alone)... it is that (when used in proximity [/same context] as the phrase "the DOTL") both these phrases together refer to the SAME TIME-PERIOD (located on the earth), and which STARTS with "judgments" unfolding, and also goes on to INCLUDE "blessing" (neither aspect consisting merely of "a singular 24-hr day," but all-told, a very lengthy time-period--but again, BOTH ASPECTS: "judgment-followed-by-blessing"... but it STARTS with [/its ARRIVAL is the START of] the "JUDGMENT" aspect [aka "birth PANGS" Jesus spoke of / the INITIAL "birth PANG" Paul speaks of, 1Th5:2-3, its ARRIVAL point in the overall chronology, but neither of these covering its TOTALITY, see... [the BEGINNING / INITIAL is just the FIRST PART of the entire lengthy whole...])
The day of the Lord is 1,000 years
 

Truth7t7

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Very bad manners to red X people my friend. We don't do that on this board any longer. I know that I have refrained and will no longer take such an action. Ever again.
(The red X disagree) is put on the tab for a reason, there is no pre-trib rapture found in the scripture, that you Promote, the fairy tale of John N. Darby & Adulterer C.I. Scofield
 

Truth7t7

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The day of the Lord is 1,000 years
I Disagree, one day is a thousand years, and a thousand years one day

God's word below, clearly teaches that there is no literal time in the Lords spiritual realm.

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
 

Truth7t7

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One very obvious reason to suspect that you might possibly be wrong about some of the details of your eschatology is when you realize that you are grieving the Holy Spirit by arguing about it like an immature elementary grade school child. :unsure:
Big Smiles! :giggle:

Jesus Christ Is Lord!
 

Truth7t7

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If you can do that without loosing any sleep over it, isn't it possible that since you are ignoring the voice of the Spirit that would tell you not to do that, then it is also possible that you might not be hearing the voice of the Spirit in your eschatological interpretations?

I mean why be so dogmatically confident about the exactness of your eschatological interpretation, when you keep sinning in the light by your immature arguing? If you can do that without conviction, it is a good indication that you spiritual ears are plugged to the voice of the Spirit. And if so then why be so sure about your prophecy theories?

Learn to present your theories with scriptures and the rules of hermeneutics and if someone still does not agree let it go. Or learn to present your hermeneutics in such a way that edifies those that read them and if they still don't agree, others who read your post will be edified.

If you fall into the sin of childish rhetoric then whatever you had to say will become suspect anyway.
More Big Smiles! :giggle:

Jesus Christ Is Lord!
 
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I Disagree, one day is a thousand years, and a thousand years one day

God's word below, clearly teaches that there is no literal time in the Lords spiritual realm.

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Yes, and he was quoting Psalms 90:4
A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

Which simply means that a thousand years is nothing in the eternal scope of things. It was never meant to be interpreted as a way of counting days into millennials for eschatological charts.
 

Ahwatukee

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Yo.

The only excuse I can find for Darby is that when he developed his end times scheme it must have all seemed far off into the future, the Jews were not back in their homeland.

One remark I would make is an important one, the revealing of Nastypants comes before the coming of the Lord, not simultaneous or after. He has already had his career of opposing everything god so called and everything worshipped as God.

This is the great end times persecution we are warned to expect ....persecution, trouble .... tribulation.

He is seated in the temple declaring that he is himself God and is destroyed by the coming and power of the Lord.

So it is his end not his beginning.
Hey!


If by "the coming of the Lord" you are referring to when He descends to the earth to end the age, then agree. However, I personally believe that believers in the church will be removed from the earth prior to the revealing of the antichrist, being gathered by the Lord prior to that event. And that because the first seal rider on the white horse, which represents the revealing of the antichrist, is what initiates God's wrath, with the Lamb/Jesus as the One who is opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets and bowl judgments. And since those who believe in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then we must be removed prior to opening of the first seal.

This is also supported by the fact that, the Holy Spirit is the One who is now holding back the full force of sin and the man of sin from being revealed. At some point, He will be taken out of the way and then that man of sin will be revealed, which means that since the Spirit indwells all believers within the church, then we must also be removed.

Based on this, I truly believe that we will never see the antichrist, but will be revealed after the church has been gathered.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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The day of the Lord is 1,000 years
It *includes* that, for sure (that's the "BLESSING" aspect--the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" and "reign... GLORIOUSLY"/FULL LIGHT OF DAY aspect);

but it is preceded by [and INCLUDES ALSO] the "JUDGMENTs" aspect (aka the "IN THE NIGHT"/"DARK"/"DARKNESS"[/"NIGHT WATCHES"] aspect OF IT...

It "so ARRIVES [its ARRIVAL is] as a thief IN THE NIGHT" at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" with MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL, that Jesus spoke of]" which follow on from that INITIAL one--this is how birth pangs work; it is not "one and done" when it comes to the birth pangs--these are the JUDGMENTS UNFOLDING, during the IN THE NIGHT aspect of the DOTL time-period--i.e. the 7 years [SEALS, Trumpets, Vials] of judgments unfolding upon the earth PRIOR TO and LEADING UP TO the "BLESSED" aspect [the MK / 1000 yrs]).




The DOTL time-period includes BOTH ASPECTS. (see again 1Th5:2-3 [INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"] re: its ARRIVAL)
 

Truth7t7

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Yes, and he was quoting Psalms 90:4
A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

Which simply means that a thousand years is nothing in the eternal scope of things. It was never meant to be interpreted as a way of counting days into millennials for eschatological charts.
He didnt quote any scripture, giving book, chapter, verse

It appears to me he made a statement that could mean anything?

However I agree with your analyses on psalm 90:4 being an answer to the literalist claims in Rev 20:4-6

Quote Evmur: The day of the Lord is 1,000 years
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Jesus says what the beginning of birth pains are and when the end [of birth pains] comes with the preaching of ths gospel to all nations.
"The beginning of birth PANGS" are the "SEALS" of Rev6.

And (in view of that ^ ) Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 is making the point that the "future" aspects of that Book (Rev) are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [the 7 yrs]

(NOT things which would transpire over the course of some 2000 yrs; IN CONTRAST to "the things WHICH ARE" [chpts 2-3] which are things NOT said "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"); i.e. the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period 1:1 speaks of (which STARTS when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13, Rev5:6; Lam2:3-4 (<--parallel the wording of 2Th2:7b-8a)] by His opening the FIRST SEAL [Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]"--aka the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3] Paul spoke of in both this passage AND 2Th2:3,8a,9a (parallel Dan9:27a[26b] "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]")--ALL of these (being the SAME ITEM & point in time) at the START of the SEVEN YEARS, not at its MIDDLE, nor at its END]);

... it is DURING those seven years [future to "our Rapture"] that Matt24:14 / 26:13 will be being preached: "THIS gospel of the KINGDOM" will be going out THEN,

... which is the same thing as "the INVITATION" TO "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER [/ FESTIVITIES; aka the EARTHLY MK age]" and THAT PARTICULAR "invitation" is not what is going out NOW (WE are asking ppl to be a part of the "MARRIAGE" itself, as "BRIDE / WIFE [SINGULAR]"... who is not "the GUESTS [PLURAL]," nor the "10 Virgins/Bridesmaids [PLURAL]," nor the particular "Servants/Attendants [PLURAL]" of that particular, future, specific, LIMITED time-period [the 7-yr trib] leading UP TO the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth ("when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" [Lk12:36-37], THEN the meal [G347... used also in various other texts, as well as this one--same thing.])

Thus, EVERYTHING in Matt24 (onward two chpts) is FOLLOWING "our Rapture"... and we see this is CONSISTENT with what the "24 elders" say in Rev5:9 (BEFORE the FIRST SEAL is opened), "hast redeemed US" (where in this scene they are wearing "stephanon/crowns" [see Paul's reference to "IN THAT DAY" regarding this "awarded" crown] and are seated on "THRONES"); and is consistent also with the point Paul is making in 2Th2:3-9 (esp.2-3) "that day [the one referred to in v.2! (NOT the split-second EVENT of v.1!) will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*..." [ONE THING *FIRST* b/f that time-period can "be present" to unfold upon the earth, and that is, the EVENT he'd ALREADY MENTIONED in verse 1! (OUR DEPARTURE / RAPTURE)] *and* [distinctly!] the man of sin BE REVEALED..." (the man of sin will "be revealed" at the START of the 7 yrs, NOT at its MIDDLE and NOT at its END--consistent with ALL of the related passages regarding that future, specific, LIMITED time-period we call "the 7-yr trib")

The next phase is the great tribulation which begins with the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. Then there shall be great tribulation such as has never been seen before.
The end of the great tribulation is marked by the return of Christ who first touches down upon the Earth on Mount Zion to meet His 144K people as shown in Revelation 14:1.
After Christ meets His 144K on Earth at Mount Zion, as noted in Revelation 14, they are raptured to the throne to sing praises. This is why they are known as first fruits.
There is more than one "harvest" in both nature and in Scripture: I've already pointed out the TWO distinct mentions of "firstfruit" in Lev23, where the language of Rev14:4 (re: the 144,000) parallels the SECOND of these TWO mentions of "firstfruit" in Lev23, where v.17 says, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (<--that ain't US).

James 1:18 also says, "a KIND of firstfruit / A CERTAIN firstfruit" (also making the same point, there is MORE THAN ONE kind).

Then, in step with Matthew 24, Jesus sends out His angels to gather His elect from the rest of the Earth. This is the completed rapture and it is also known as the harvest of the wheat and the tares.
These passages are NOT speaking of "our Rapture," but of the point in time of His "RETURN" to the earth [/Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the EARTHLY MK age, where these folks will still be located [as still-living persons at the time of His "RETURN" to the earth--they will be involved with this "separation judgment" [same as Matt25:31-34, etc]). Same time-slot as Lk12:36-37 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom... not TO BE wed, at that point)

Since this is a chronological sequence of events there's no other conclusion that Jesus returns post-tribulation. I think He made every effort to say this, including stating point blank that He returns after the tribulation of those days.

Read Matthew 24, understanding it's a chronological sequence of events.
We AGREE (we ALL AGREE) He "RETURNS" [to the earth] AFTER the trib / POST-trib. But Matt24:29-31 corresponds with Isa27:12-13 (the believing remnant of Israel being gathered "ONE by ONE" to "worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM"; and Matt25:31-34 is "all the nations" gathered before Him [which is NOT "IN THE AIR" either!!]--This is NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" going to "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR / our episynagoges UNTO HIM" there<--b/c "all the nations" is not who goes up / is SNATCHED AWAY at the time of "our Rapture" [our Rapture (gathering-action) "AS ONE"--completely distinct from the manner in which Matt24:29-31/Isa27:12-13's "gather together" will occur "ONE by ONE" to one location ON THE EARTH]).

It is because you are getting a couple of the SEQUENCE issues messed up (and particularly "what happens when, in relation to what other item" in 2Th2 involving "our Rapture"), that you are failing to see that EVERYTHING in Matt24 is speaking of events FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (Jesus is NOT covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" ANYWHERE in His Olivet Discourse... Up to the time He spoke His Olivet Discourse [including throughout His entire response there], He had NOT YET spoken ANYTHING regarding "our Rapture".)


Boiled down: "the beginning of birth PANGS [Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11 ; 1Th5:2-3]" ARE the "SEALS" of Rev6, ALL of which take place in the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period (the 7 yrs) and ALL FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (which must take place *FIRST* ... and as all of the related passages consistently present as being the case).



"Rapture" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [(Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])... ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]" (aka "the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]" pertaining to "the MARRIAGE" itself)], NOT to all other saints of all OTHER time-periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not the MK saints. So this is a matter of CHRONOLOGY (meaning, WHEN ppl come to faith--OT times, "IN this present age [singular]," or IN/DURING the Trib yrs... There is a DISTINCTION between "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" and the "GUESTS [PLURAL]," for example... [having come to faith at DISTINCT time-periods in the overall chronology]).
 
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He didnt quote any scripture, giving book, chapter, verse

It appears to me he made a statement that could mean anything?

However I agree with your analyses on psalm 90:4 being an answer to the literalist claims in Rev 20:4-6

Quote Evmur: The day of the Lord is 1,000 years
Peter. Peter was quoting Psalms 90:4 People sometimes quote Peter like they did not realize Peter was quoting Psalms. And if one reads Psalms 90:4 it should make it clear to them that Peter was not dropping some new way of interpreting prophetic timelines or other things like the 7 days of creation.
 

Evmur

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It *includes* that, for sure (that's the "BLESSING" aspect--the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" and "reign... GLORIOUSLY"/FULL LIGHT OF DAY aspect);

but it is preceded by [and INCLUDES ALSO] the "JUDGMENTs" aspect (aka the "IN THE NIGHT"/"DARK"/"DARKNESS"[/"NIGHT WATCHES"] aspect OF IT...

It "so ARRIVES [its ARRIVAL is] as a thief IN THE NIGHT" at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" with MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL, that Jesus spoke of]" which follow on from that INITIAL one--this is how birth pangs work; it is not "one and done" when it comes to the birth pangs--these are the JUDGMENTS UNFOLDING, during the IN THE NIGHT aspect of the DOTL time-period--i.e. the 7 years [SEALS, Trumpets, Vials] of judgments unfolding upon the earth PRIOR TO and LEADING UP TO the "BLESSED" aspect [the MK / 1000 yrs]).




The DOTL time-period includes BOTH ASPECTS. (see again 1Th5:2-3 [INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"] re: its ARRIVAL)
He comes in the clouds with great power and glory and every eye shall see Him.

I wish folks would discern that there is tribulation. "in the world you will have tribulation" there is the great tribulation when the world will be a perilous place for us to be. And then there is the wrath of God, God's judgements upon an unrepentant world.

These things are quite different. Tribulation takes place before the Lord returns, wrath comes after the church is removed and Israel is protected in their homeland.