The latest heretical fad --"Christians do not go to Heaven".

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
19,122
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113
#1
We are living in a day when heresies abound, and one of the latest seems to be a rejection of Heaven. The cults already rejected eternal Hell some time back, but now we are being told that Christians do not go to Heaven. But we are not told what the alternative is. Seemingly it is back to earth. Indeed many seem to be ignorant about Heaven and its occupants, and cannot grasp the idea that every believer -- every child of God -- is destined for Heaven. In fact all the Old Testament saints, as well as all the New Testament saints who have passed on, are presently in Heaven.

It almost seems that there is a hatred for Heaven being planted into the hearts and minds of some. And since Satan was unceremoniously cast out of Heaven, who else could be behind this nefarious plot to deceive people and kill their joy?

The Bible tells us that there are three heavens, and the third heaven is God's Heaven. Which would mean that the first heaven is the atmospheric/stratospheric heaven, and the second heaven is outer space.

PAUL WAS IN HEAVEN AND RETURNED TO EARTH
1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth: such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth: 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. (2 Corinthians 12:1-5)

Paul speaks here in the third person, and shows us that (a) Heaven is above the earth and is also "the third heaven", (b) paradise is in Heaven and there are words spoken there, and (c) this implies that he was in fact in the New Jerusalem (which contains the Paradise of God and all the occupants of Heaven as noted in Hebrews 12:22-24).

JOHN WAS IN HEAVEN AND RETURNED TO EARTH
The book of Revelation is full of the visions of the apostle John. And many of those visions were actually seen in Heaven. But eventually John did return to earth and write this book of prophecy. When John first entered Heaven, he saw the throne of God, and all those surrounding that throne:

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. 5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. 6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. 7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. 8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. 9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. (Revelation 4:1-11)

OUR CITIZENSHIP IS IN HEAVEN
The Bible says that Christians are pilgrims and sojourners on earth because our eternal citizenship is in Heaven. To settle that in our minds we are told that Abraham -- the "father" of all who are justified by grace -- "looked for a city which hath foundations, who Builder and Maker is God" (Hebrew 11:10). The only city whose Builder and Maker is God is the New Jerusalem, with its twelve foundations. This is solid confirmation that our citizenship is in Heaven because Christ is in Heaven, as stated in Philippians 3:20,21: For our conversation [citizenship] is in Heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
 
J

joecoten

Guest
#2
So the New Jerusalem is in the third heaven?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
45,302
19,420
113
#3
So the New Jerusalem is in the third heaven?
My understanding is that the New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven.

That's what the Bible says, any ways ;) Well, the Bible that I read. I guess some read a different Bible.

Revelation 21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth
had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming
down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband... 10 And he
carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the
holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, ... 24 And the nations of them which are saved
shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
45,302
19,420
113
#4
But we are not told what the alternative is.
Nehemiah likes to pretend he has not been told the truth :unsure:

I wonder what pleasure he derives from this pretense.

I wonder which cult teaches that the New Jerusalem does not come down from Heaven to the new earth.
 
J

joecoten

Guest
#5
Well, I saw God's holy mountain in a vision once. It had fire swirling around it. A voice came down from it, touched me and said, "All things are possible, if one only believes." I later found it in the bible...it was Jesus who said it.
When I died, I saw Jesus in a city that had a golden mist clinging to the ground. So I figure the New Jerusalem must be on top of that mountain. It's a really thin, tall, mountain and it went so high that I couldn't see the top of it.
 
J

joecoten

Guest
#6
Though I didn't see any Kundalini spirits, start barking like a dog, or start listening to Kenneth Copeland! lol
 
J

joecoten

Guest
#7
I didn't even laugh...I was stunned and in extreme awe of the living God!
 

SomeDisciple

Well-known member
Jul 4, 2021
1,046
484
83
#8
I think it's based on some people's eschatology?

I think some people believe in a post-trib rapture that goes straight into millenial reign, and then that goes into a new earth where the new Jerusalem will be, so in that case, there would be some people that wouldn't go to "heaven" proper.

It's not really a belief that denies Jesus, or the goodness of God in any way that I can think of; so I'm not sure it's "heretical". What is it post-trib people say? "I'm willing to change my beliefs on the way up" (concerning the rapture). I wonder if the pre-trib types are willing to change their beliefs as their heads are being cut off.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
7,385
3,304
113
#9
We are living in a day when heresies abound, and one of the latest seems to be a rejection of Heaven. The cults already rejected eternal Hell some time back,


Hell is not eternal. It’s cast into the lake of fire per Revelation.

but now we are being told that Christians do not go to Heaven. But we are not told what the alternative is. Seemingly it is back to earth. Indeed many seem to be ignorant about Heaven and its occupants, and cannot grasp the idea that every believer -- every child of God -- is destined for Heaven. In fact all the Old Testament saints, as well as all the New Testament saints who have passed on, are presently in Heaven.
It almost seems that there is a hatred for Heaven being planted into the hearts and minds of some. And since Satan was unceremoniously cast out of Heaven, who else could be behind this nefarious plot to deceive people and kill their joy?

The Bible tells us that there are three heavens, and the third heaven is God's Heaven. Which would mean that the first heaven is the atmospheric/stratospheric heaven, and the second heaven is outer space.

PAUL WAS IN HEAVEN AND RETURNED TO EARTH
1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth: such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth: 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. (2 Corinthians 12:1-5)

Paul speaks here in the third person, and shows us that (a) Heaven is above the earth and is also "the third heaven", (b) paradise is in Heaven and there are words spoken there, and (c) this implies that he was in fact in the New Jerusalem (which contains the Paradise of God and all the occupants of Heaven as noted in Hebrews 12:22-24).

JOHN WAS IN HEAVEN AND RETURNED TO EARTH
The book of Revelation is full of the visions of the apostle John. And many of those visions were actually seen in Heaven. But eventually John did return to earth and write this book of prophecy. When John first entered Heaven, he saw the throne of God, and all those surrounding that throne:

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. 5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. 6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. 7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. 8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. 9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. (Revelation 4:1-11)


While it’s very interesting the visions they described of heaven, it seems like those are one-off isolated experiences. Not all believers are raptured to heaven, have an out-of-body experience about being in heaven, or a vision.The Bible never guarantees this kind of experience for everyone either.

OUR CITIZENSHIP IS IN HEAVEN
The Bible says that Christians are pilgrims and sojourners on earth because our eternal citizenship is in Heaven. To settle that in our minds we are told that Abraham -- the "father" of all who are justified by grace -- "looked for a city which hath foundations, who Builder and Maker is God" (Hebrew 11:10). The only city whose Builder and Maker is God is the New Jerusalem, with its twelve foundations. This is solid confirmation that our citizenship is in Heaven because Christ is in Heaven, as stated in Philippians 3:20,21: For our conversation [citizenship] is in Heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Actually this verse doesn’t say people go to heaven. It says that their citizenship is in heaven. For example, I am not physically located in the USA, but I am a US citizen and will always be a US citizen while I’m alive. I dont have to be on the USA to be a citizen.

The Bible is actually very careful to not just plainly say “You go to heaven when you die.”

The Bible does guarantee salvation and eternal life for those who believe in Jesus of Nazareth. If you recall, Jesus never said where everyone gets eternal life at.

The thief on the cross went to paradise, the disciples were promised mansions, but what about you and me?

Which verse plainly says people go to heaven?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
19,122
9,901
113
#11
The Bible is actually very careful to not just plainly say “You go to heaven when you die.”
So unless you see such a statement you'll simply disregard the truth?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
19,122
9,901
113
#12
My understanding is that the New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven.
Which means that it is presently in Heaven. And it certainly does not come down to earth. But at the moment it is in Heaven, and Heaven is the eternal home of the saints.
 
Jan 12, 2022
798
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#14
Actually in the entire Bible it never says you go to heaven. The men of the Bible say that heaven gets destroyed by God, set on fire at the glory of the revelation of the Father's face. People are probably conflating the Kingdom with heaven since the Kingdom is being prepared in heaven and will come down to earth to slaughter Satan and his army at the end. After all the heaven and earth, the whole universe is destroyed at the Father's face being Revealed, there is the resurrection and judgements day, and after these God makes a new heaven and new earth and this is where God's New Jerusalem shall stand forever, the Kingdom of God will reign in all ways in the eternity and Jesus will be in the midst of us very literally, praise Jesus.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
19,122
9,901
113
#15
Actually in the entire Bible it never says you go to heaven.
So why don't you read John 14:1-3 and tell us where the Father's house is? And where Jesus promised that His disciples would be? And why don't you tell us where Stephen went, and where all the saints who are no longer on earth are presently gathered, and what Paul meant when he said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? It seems like Christians nowadays do not care to seriously consider what is being either stated or implied.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
3,062
716
113
#16
Well, I saw God's holy mountain in a vision once. It had fire swirling around it. A voice came down from it, touched me and said, "All things are possible, if one only believes." I later found it in the bible...it was Jesus who said it.
When I died, I saw Jesus in a city that had a golden mist clinging to the ground. So I figure the New Jerusalem must be on top of that mountain. It's a really thin, tall, mountain and it went so high that I couldn't see the top of it.
You are shure that you saw the truth?
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
3,404
1,807
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London
christianchat.com
#17
Nehemiah likes to pretend he has not been told the truth :unsure:

I wonder what pleasure he derives from this pretense.

I wonder which cult teaches that the New Jerusalem does not come down from Heaven to the new earth.
My understanding has always been that Jerusalem reaches into heaven, thus uniting heaven and earth in those days.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
6,976
3,206
113
#18
So the New Jerusalem is in the third heaven?
The New Jerusalem definitly comes out of heaven and down to the new earth.. While Saints who have died may spend time in heaven.. That is not our eternal destination.. Our eternal home is the New Jerusalem.. Where ever that is, thats where we shall be..
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
3,404
1,807
113
London
christianchat.com
#19
The New Jerusalem definitly comes out of heaven and down to the new earth.. While Saints who have died may spend time in heaven.. That is not our eternal destination.. Our eternal home is the New Jerusalem.. Where ever that is, thats where we shall be..
More, more,

More than this Jerusalem is the city of God, the famous city set 4 square. It is the temple of God, it is the house of God.

It is a LIVING house, made up of living stone. US.

WE are the house of God, We are the heavenly part, the body of Christ ... during the 1, 000 years the Jews will comprise the earthly part.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
3,587
1,571
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#20
So why don't you read John 14:1-3 and tell us where the Father's house is? And where Jesus promised that His disciples would be? And why don't you tell us where Stephen went, and where all the saints who are no longer on earth are presently gathered, and what Paul meant when he said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? It seems like Christians nowadays do not care to seriously consider what is being either stated or implied.
Name a place that God is not.....where isn't God?

I'll wait but not while holding my breath.
I would have to wait too long.

"Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" according to 1Corinthians 5:8.

There is nowhere that God is not....you can't back up far enough to view Him in his entirety.