The Lord’s Abilities

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Mulehide

Guest
#2
There's a chorus I learned as a kid that sums it up pretty nicely: "God can do anything, anything, anything. God can do anything but fail!"
 
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Mich223

Guest
#3
God can do anything. But he couldn't stop his son from dying on the cross.
 
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Mulehide

Guest
#4
Au contraire. God could have stopped His Son from dying on the cross. However, salvation through the shed blood of Jesus was God's plan of redemption before He ever created earth. God's great sacrifice is what makes His love and mercy so astounding and to reject that sacrifice so horrible.
 
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wwjd_kilden

Guest
#5
I wonder if God can choose to cease to exist, or if the fact that he is God makes him eternal in its own power
Not that I think God ever would want not to exist... it was just a random thought ... as He has always been there
 
C

Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#6
What can and can’t the Lord do?
In another thread I claimed that God can do all things that are logically possible, but that God’s omnipotence (all-powerfulness) does not mean he can do logically impossible things because such things are incoherent (usually nothing more than a confusion of terms) and it’s no advantage to God to do incoherent or confused things.

I was going to say the same thing here, but I remembered that some people objected to this last time. So rather than open a big can of worms again I decided to quote some mainstream theologians who claim the same thing. As I was gathering this information, I was reminded that there are more things that God cannot do: anything which is against his nature (such as lie or sin).

James Boyce, Abstract of Systematic Theology:

“…while God is not subject to the limitations which thus affect us, he also is limited in his power. These limitations, however, are such as arise, not from without, but from the excellence and perfection of his own nature. Hence the limitations are concurrent with his will, which can never desire to do what his nature does not permit.
1. God cannot create a being or world to which his essential incommunicable attributes can be given, viz.: infinity, embracing eternity and immensity, and self-existence.
2. He cannot create a being whose nature is sinful. The nature he bestows on any creature becomes the law of that creature, so that for any nature to be sinful, it must have been changed from conformity to the law of its creation.
3. He cannot impose laws which are not accordant with righteousness and holiness.
4. He cannot deal with any of his creatures unjustly.
5. He cannot commit sin.
6. He cannot change his own nature.
7. He cannot change his decrees or purpose.
8. He cannot do impossibilities.
If it be asked why he can do none of these things, the answer is, because his own nature is to him the law of what he does, as well as of what he wills and of what he is. He is not just and holy because he wills to be so, but he wills to be just and holy because he is so. His will does not make his nature, but his nature controls his will” (84-85).

Millard J. Erickson, Christian Theology (2nd ed) :

“By [omnipotence] we mean that God is able to do all things that are proper objects of his power… He cannot arbitrarily do anything whatsoever that we may conceive of. He can do only those things that are proper objects of his power. Thus, he cannot do the logically absurd or contradictory. He cannot make square circles or triangles with four corners. He cannot undo what happened in the past, although he may wipe out its effects or even the memory of it. He cannot act contrary to his nature—he cannot be cruel or unconcerned. He cannot fail to do what he has promised” (302-303).

William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology (3rd ed.) :

“It is not optional with God to be triune…it cannot be said that God may keep his promises as he pleases… Divine power is limited only by the absurd and self-contradictory. God can do anything that does not imply a logical impossibility. A logical impossibility means that the predicate is contradictory to the subject; for example, a material spirit, a corporeal deity, a sensitive stone, an irrational man, a body without parts or extension, a square triangle. These are not objects of power, and therefore it is really no limitation of divine omnipotence to say that it cannot create them. They involve the absurdity that a thing can be and not be at the same time. A logical impossibility is, in truth, a nonentity; and to say that God cannot crate a nonentity is not a limitation or denial of power. For power is the ability to create entity. Again, God cannot do anything inconsistent with the perfection of divine nature” (289).

John Miley, Systematic Theology:

(Miley uses “will” with reference to omnipotence. He says, “will and omnipotence in God are the same attribute” (vol 1. page 180)) “Will is the third and completing attribute of personality. It is the necessary power of personal agency, of rational self-determination, of rational action with respect to motives and ends. The will is not sufficient for personality simply as a power of self-energizing for the attainment of the ends of one’s impulses and appetences. Such a power is no higher than the self-energizing of an animal. It must be central to the personality, that it may be the working-power of the rational personal agency” (vol. 1. 179).

Robert Reymond, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith (2nd ed) :

“This then is the conception of God’s omnipotence as Christian theism has perceived it: God has the power to do everything that he has determined that he will do, and even the power to do that which is noncontradictory which he does not will to do. The Christian should have no problem accepting this since there is nothing in the conception, when properly explained, that is self-contradictory. As J. L. Mackie declares:
‘Once we have decided that omnipotence is not to include the power to achieve logical impossibilities—and it must not include this, if it is to be discussable— there cannot be any contradiction within the concept itself.’” (193)

Guy Duffield, and N. Cleave, Foundations of Pentecostal Theology:

“Some have tried to find a contradiction in God’s Omnipotence because it is stated that there are some things that He cannot do, such as: to lie, to sin, to deny Himself, and humorously, to make a rock so big that He cannot lift it. This is not a limitation of His Power, but a self-limitation of His Will. God will not do what is contrary to His Nature, nor what is a contradiction in terms” (71-72).

I could cite others, but I’m out of time. Suffice it to say that the majority of Christian theologians are agreed that God cannot do things contrary to his nature and this includes irrational (logically contradictory) things. This doesn't mean I'm right or that any of these theologians are right, but it certainly isn't odd and I think it is right.
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#8
In another thread I claimed that God can do all things that are logically possible, but that God’s omnipotence (all-powerfulness) does not mean he can do logically impossible things because such things are incoherent (usually nothing more than a confusion of terms) and it’s no advantage to God to do incoherent or confused things.
Yes, I’ve said before that the Lord can do anything, and then someone will ask if the Lord can create a rock too big for the Lord to move. It seems to refute my assertion that the Lord can do anything, but the Lord can do anything. He taught us to have faith, which tells me there is nothing he can’t do.

However, it occurs to me that he cannot force me to love him. Even so, he has succeeded in winning my love because of the things he has done for me.
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#9
I wonder if God can choose to cease to exist, or if the fact that he is God makes him eternal in its own power
Not that I think God ever would want not to exist... it was just a random thought ... as He has always been there
Jesus taught us to have faith. Therefore, it is impossible for the Lord to make the decision to cease to exist.
 
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wwjd_kilden

Guest
#10
that's a good point
 
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Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#11
Yes, I’ve said before that the Lord can do anything, and then someone will ask if the Lord can create a rock too big for the Lord to move. It seems to refute my assertion that the Lord can do anything, but the Lord can do anything. He taught us to have faith, which tells me there is nothing he can’t do.

However, it occurs to me that he cannot force me to love him. Even so, he has succeeded in winning my love because of the things he has done for me.
I find it a bit odd that you apparently want to say the Lord can do anything, without qualification, and then you go on to add two qualifications: God can't force people to love him and can't choose to cease to exist. (Maybe you're just exercising your god-like ability to be incoherent? I'm joking...)

So if there are things God can't do, it seems to me like logically contradictory things are as good a candidate as any for being in that category.

As I pointed out (and as the other theologians pointed out that I quoted), there really is nothing to gain by saying that God can do logically incoherent things. That isn't an advantage. If anything, it would be a defect in God. When a person contradicts themselves we usually don't sit back and marvel at their power to be incoherent. Why some people want to sit back and marvel at the idea that God can contradict himself and be incoherent is beyond me.
 
May 16, 2010
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#12
Unless i'm mistaken is not GOD LOVE?? on that assumption can we not be honest with ourselves and see that part of HIM in ALL of us?(men & women)
What are the 2 things that LOVE has a problems with? First it can be easily taken advantage of; secondly when it is taken advantage of LOVE can often times become out of control and sometimes even dangerous; Thats WHY GOD(whoever that is?) Loves HIS WISDOM(whatever that may be)SO MUCH!!!
Love & Peace Forever in CHRIST!!!
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#13
I find it a bit odd that you apparently want to say the Lord can do anything, without qualification, and then you go on to add two qualifications: God can't force people to love him and can't choose to cease to exist. (Maybe you're just exercising your god-like ability to be incoherent? I'm joking...)

So if there are things God can't do, it seems to me like logically contradictory things are as good a candidate as any for being in that category.

As I pointed out (and as the other theologians pointed out that I quoted), there really is nothing to gain by saying that God can do logically incoherent things. That isn't an advantage. If anything, it would be a defect in God. When a person contradicts themselves we usually don't sit back and marvel at their power to be incoherent. Why some people want to sit back and marvel at the idea that God can contradict himself and be incoherent is beyond me.
Can the Lord force us to love him?
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#15
Unless i'm mistaken is not GOD LOVE?? on that assumption can we not be honest with ourselves and see that part of HIM in ALL of us?(men & women)
What are the 2 things that LOVE has a problems with? First it can be easily taken advantage of; secondly when it is taken advantage of LOVE can often times become out of control and sometimes even dangerous; Thats WHY GOD(whoever that is?) Loves HIS WISDOM(whatever that may be)SO MUCH!!!
Love & Peace Forever in CHRIST!!!
The Lord is love in that he is motivated entirely by love, I believe.

God is our creator, provider, and savior, is he not?
 
D

Dmurray

Guest
#17
God can do everything. But He cannot control us, or control our carnal minds. Because he gave us free will.
 
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Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#18
To make life unbearably unpleasant for us unless we do as he wishes
So your asking if God can "make life unbearably unpleasant for us unless we do as he wishes" to love him?

Sorry, this still doesn't make sense to me. Your definition of "force" is way too complex to fit into your little statement about "Can God force us to love him."

Are you asking if God can cause a person to love him who doesn't already love him? So that at some earlier time they didn't love him, but now they do? Or are you asking if God can cause a person to love him at the same time that the person doesn't love him?
 
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Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#19
God can do everything. But He cannot control us, or control our carnal minds. Because he gave us free will.
“The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will. ” (Proverbs 21:1)

“And the LORD made his people very fruitful and made them stronger than their foes. He turned their hearts to hate his people, to deal craftily with his servants. ” (Psalm 105:24–25)
 
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Dmurray

Guest
#20
“The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will. ” (Proverbs 21:1)

“And the LORD made his people very fruitful and made them stronger than their foes. He turned their hearts to hate his people, to deal craftily with his servants. ” (Psalm 105:24–25)
We can always override God's will in our lives. If we couldn't then we would be perfect. So if we chose to walk after God of course he can "control" us, but it's something we WANT to do, not something he is forcing us to do.