The old testament and some unhappy stuff

[Alli84]

I have a question to put out there that I thought some seasoned Christians might have some insight into. A lot of times my non-believer friends will use all the crummy stuff (wars, floods, Israelites getting smited) that happens in the old testament as examples for why they would hate god even if he did exist. I just kind of wonder if there is any way to explain why a perfect god does stuff that doesn't seem too nice in our human views. Does anyone have any insight on how to deal with that kind of stuff?

 

[VW]

Strange that you ask this question, as I was being led to start a thread about our moral judgment compared to God's righteousness. Anyone who decides that God is hateful because of the things He caused to happen due to exceedingly pervasive sin has already decided to judge God by their own moral standard. To such a one, there is no explanation that they would accept. They have decided according to their sense of right and wrong, good verses evil, that if God could do such a thing, then He is at best not good, and most likely He is evil. All you can do for such as this is pray for them.

Many times we judge by what we think is right, what we see as good or evil. But this judgment is never according to God's judgment. To make a true judgment takes wisdom, but the required wisdom is not earthly in origin, but rather it is heavenly, and comes from God. As it is written, if any lacks wisdom, let them ask of God, who gives freely without respect to persons. His wisdom is always good, and makes for good and heavenly judgments. Earthly wisdom is never good and never makes for good judgments.

If these press for an answer, then they are trying to attack your faith. Just tell them that God is God, and that He can do as He pleases, no one can stay His hand.

In Christ,

 

[trust_in_the_name]

3 But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases. (Psalm 115:3)

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. (1 John 1:5)

48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. (Matthew 5:48)

8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Romans 11:33)

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; (Proverbs 3:5)

1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. 6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son." 10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved." 26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God." 27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved. 28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth." 29 And as Isaiah said before: "Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We would have become like Sodom, And we would have been made like Gomorrah." 30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." (Romans 9)

 

[trust_in_the_name]

"How Can A God Of Love Send People To Hell?"

The reason people are sent to hell is because God is a God of love. This may sound incorrect to the human mind (1 Corinthians 2:14), but it is nonetheless the teaching of Scripture. For example, why did God kill the firstborn of Egypt (Exodus 12:29-30)? Psalm 136:10 says because His mercy endures forever. Why did the Lord destroy the Egyptian army in the Red Sea? Psalm 136:15 says because His mercy endures forever. Why did He strike down great kings? Because His mercy endures forever (Psalm 136:17). Why did He slay famous kings? Because His mercy endures forever (Psalm 136:18). Why did He kill Sihon king of the Amorites and Og king of Bashan? Because His mercy endures forever (Psalm 136:19-20). Those who died in their wickedness went to hell. Yet, Psalm 136 begins with these words:

Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good! For His mercy endures forever. (Psalm 136:1)
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It is good for God to slay the wicked and send them to hell. David knew this well, thus he wrote,

You therefore, O Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel, awake to punish all the nations; Do not be merciful to any wicked transgressors. (Psalm 59:5)

Oh, that You would slay the wicked, O God! (Psalm 139:19; see also 144:6)
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The Lord has and will answer these prayers (Psalm 5:6; 21:8-10; 52:5; Proverbs 15:25; Isaiah 11:4; 13:9), because He is love; and love does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth (1 Corinthians 13:6).

A Song of Love (Psalm 45 title) declares,

Your arrows are sharp in the heart of the King's enemies; the peoples fall under You. Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness. (Psalm 45:5-7a; see also verse 1 which declares this to be a "good theme")
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It is righteous to destroy the wicked, and in His love, this is what God does.

In Psalm 69 David appeals to the lovingkindness of God and His tender mercies (Psalm 69:16) and in these asks the Lord to pour out His wrath on his enemies. David writes,

Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see; and make their loins shake continually. Pour out Your indignation upon them, and let Your wrathful anger take hold of them. Let their dwelling place be desolate; let no one live in their tents. For they persecute the ones You have struck, and talk of the grief of those You have wounded. Add iniquity to their iniquity, and let them not come into Your righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. (Psalm 69:23-28)
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When David says, "Let them not come into Your righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous," David is asking the Lord to assign them to eternal fire. The only way anyone is ever saved is by coming into the righteousness of God (Romans 3:21-22; 4:3-8), and by being written in the book of the living, written with the righteous (Revelation 20:15). Therefore, David is asking God not to save them, but to destroy them forever.
In Psalm 143:12 David likewise requests,

In Your mercy cut off my enemies, and destroy all those who afflict my soul; for I am Your servant. (Psalm 143:12)
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Asking for them to be cut off, is asking for them to be killed (e.g. Exodus 31:14) and sent to hell, for all who die in their sin experience the second death (Revelation 21:8). David requests the Lord to do this in His mercy.

In Malachi, the way the Lord proves to Israel that He loves them is by pointing out how He has hated Esau and his descendents.

"I have loved you," says the Lord. "Yet you say, 'In what way have You loved us?' Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" Says the Lord. "Yet Jacob I have loved; but Esau I have hated, and laid waste his mountains and his heritage for the jackals of the wilderness." Even though Edom has said, "We have been impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places," thus says the Lord of hosts: "They may build, but I will throw down; they shall be called the Territory of Wickedness, and the people against whom the Lord will have indignation forever. Your eyes shall see, and you shall say, 'The Lord is magnified beyond the border of Israel.'" (Malachi 1:2-5)
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The Lord proves His love for Israel, by showing that He has hated Esau (Romans 9:11-13, 18) and sent him and his descendents to hell; as the Scripture says they are "the people against whom the Lord will have indignation forever." That depicts eternal torment (e.g. Isaiah 66:24)!

Some may consider such a predisposition and predestination (Romans 9:11-23) as anything but loving, but the Word reveals God's plan in creating the wicked for hell (Proverbs 16:4) is part of His lovingkindness and faithfulness. As "A Song for the Sabbath" reveals,

It is good to give thanks to the Lord, and to sing praises to Your name, O Most High; to declare Your lovingkindness in the morning, and Your faithfulness every night. (Psalm 92:1-2)
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What is the first declaration of God's lovingkindness and faithfulness? It is God's predestined plan for the wicked.

O Lord, how great are Your works! Your thoughts are very deep. A senseless man does not know, nor does a fool understand this. When the wicked spring up like grass, and when all the workers of iniquity flourish, it is that they may be destroyed forever. (Psalm 92:5-7)
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Why are the wicked presently flourishing? "It is that they may be destroyed forever" (see also Proverbs 16:4 & Romans 9:22), so they will never rear their ugly heads again! In other words, it is that they may be destroyed in hell forever never to be released (Isaiah 66:24; Revelation 20:10; 21:8).

Note also, it is good to declare this in the morning and every night (Psalm 92:2), because it is His lovingkindness and His faithfulness. In fact, this is one reason the godly love the Lord and His Word, because God destroys the wicked. As the Psalmist wrote,

You put away all the wicked of the earth like dross; therefore I love Your testimonies. (Psalm 119:119)
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At the same time, this fearful Love also causes people of faith to fear God. This same Psalmist wrote in the very next verse,

My flesh trembles for fear of You, and I am afraid of Your judgments. (Psalm 119:120)
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God's judgments are indeed dreadful (Isaiah 8:13), but they are nonetheless good (Psalm 34:8; 52:9; 54:5-6; 119:68; 135:3). Both His harsh wrath (Proverbs 27:4) and His merciful kindness is all rooted in the fact that He is a God of love, and that He is love (1 John 4:8, 16). Psalm 107 illustrates this well.

He turns rivers into a wilderness, and the watersprings into dry ground; a fruitful land into barrenness, for the wickedness of those who dwell in it. (Psalm 107:33-34)
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Here we see His wrath. But then, Psalm 107 continues with,

He turns a wilderness into pools of water, and dry land into watersprings. There He makes the hungry dwell, that they may establish a city for a dwelling place, and sow fields and plant vineyards, that they may yield a fruitful harvest. He also blesses them, and they multiply greatly; and He does not let their cattle decrease. (Psalm 107:35-38)
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Here we see His mercy and kindness. Yet, Psalm 107 continues,

When they are diminished and brought low through oppression, affliction and sorrow, He pours contempt on princes, and causes them to wander in the wilderness where there is no way. (Psalm 107:39-40)
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Here we see again His wrath. Psalm 107 continues,

Yet He sets the poor on high, far from affliction, and makes their families like a flock. The righteous see it and rejoice, and all iniquity stops its mouth. (Psalm 107:41-42)
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With both the wrath of God and His merciful kindness in view, Psalm 107 ends with,

Whoever is wise will observe these things, and they will understand the lovingkindness of the Lord. (Psalm 107:43)
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Even though the God of Love has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:23, 32; 33:11), He nevertheless loves justice (Psalm 37:28) and delights in and rejoices in judgment (e.g. Deuteronomy 28:63; Revelation 19:1-7). As it is written,

Thus says the Lord, "Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, let not the mighty man glory in his might, nor let the rich man glory in his riches; but let him who glories glory in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the Lord, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth. For in these I delight," says the Lord. (Jeremiah 9:23-24)
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When the Lord kills the wicked, which also means they die and go to hell (Revelation 21:8), He is exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth, and in these He delights; and so do others.

When it goes well with the righteous, the city rejoices; and when the wicked perish, there is jubilation. (Proverbs 11:10)
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To what end is all this? It is as Psalm 92 declares. In His love, God will have eradicated the wicked from the earth (Psalm 37:1-2, 9-10, 20, 28, 34, 38; Revelation 19 & 20), and this will make an awesome eternal existence for the godly! The wicked will be destroyed forever (Psalm 92:7). There will be no more evil people roaming around! They will all be in the lake of fire unable to have any evil influence on the new heavens, new earth, and New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:1-8). As Revelation declares,

And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie. (Revelation 22:24-27)
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This is God's love. It is His love for those who are saved. It will be an eternity without wicked people!

Praise the Lord! For He has delivered the life of the poor from the hand of evildoers. (Jeremiah 20:13)
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[trust_in_the_name]

[SIZE=+3]"God Is Love"[/SIZE]

He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. (1 John 4:8)

God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him. (1 John 4:16)

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Most people do not know love, because they do not know God (Psalm 10:4; 14:1-3; Matthew 7:13-14), and are therefore incapable of loving in any kind of godly way (Jeremiah 13:23; Romans 3:10-18; 14:23; Titus 3:3). God is the defining factor in a proper understanding of what is love, because God is love. If you do not know God (Galatians 4:8; 2 Thessalonians 1:8), you will not understand love, for the Lord is love. Therefore, if you do not understand (Ephesians 4:17-18), or you reject what is revealed in this report about God and love, it is indicative of your lost state (John 8:47; John 17:3; 1 John 4:6). May the Lord have mercy, and may you come to know the God of love.

[SIZE=+2]I. God Is Patient (1 Corinthians 13:4).[/SIZE]​

In its first definition of love, 1 Corinthians 13:4 defines God (Love) as One who "suffers long" (NKJV). The Lord suffers? Yes, in His love, He suffers long. Jesus said,

I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! (Luke 12:49)
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The Almighty Holy God loves justice (Psalm 37:28; 99:4) and hates those who do evil (Leviticus 20:23; Psalm 5:5-6; 11:5; 78:59; 106:40; Proverbs 6:16-19). "God is angry with the wicked every day" (Psalm 7:11), and if they do not repent,

He will sharpen His sword; He bends His bow and makes it ready. He also prepares for Himself instruments of death; He makes His arrows into fiery shafts. (Psalm 7:12-13)
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He prepares to destroy them. But, in the meantime, He suffers long with them and continues to make,

His sun rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. (Matthew 5:45).
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He causes the grass to grow for the cattle, and vegetation for the service of man, that he may bring forth food from the earth, and wine that makes glad the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread which strengthens man's heart. (Psalm 104:14-15)

These all wait for You, that You may give them their food in due season. What You give them they gather in; You open Your hand, they are filled with good. (Psalm 104:27-28)​

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God loves His enemies (Romans 5:8-10). He loves those whom He hates (Psalm 5:5-6; John 3:16; Romans 3:10-18). He is extremely patient towards evil men (e.g. Nehemiah 9:30). He has even been crushed by wicked men (Ezekiel 6:9). He suffers long with them (Romans 2:4), but not indefinitely.

You hide Your face, they are troubled; You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust. (Psalm 104:29; see also Luke 16:19-31)
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For man also does not know his time: Like fish taken in a cruel net, like birds caught in a snare, so the sons of men are snared in an evil time, when it falls suddenly upon them. (Ecclesiastes 9:12)​

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God is patient, but His patience has an end; and He chooses when that end will be.

Our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases. (Psalm 115:3)
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Finally, the Lord is particularly patient with believers, as 2 Peter 3:9 says.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9, NKJV; NAS "patient toward you")
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[SIZE=+2]II. God Is Kind (1 Corinthians 13:4).[/SIZE]


Along with His longsuffering, is His kindness toward mankind and all of His creation. Day after day He gives life and breath and sustenance to man, animals, and all life (Psalm 104; Acts 17:25).

The Lord is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works. (Psalm 145:9)
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The eyes of all look expectantly to You, and You give them their food in due season. You open Your hand and satisfy the desire of every living thing. (Psalm 145:15-16)

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He is "gracious in all His works" (Psalm 145:17), and He gives gladness of heart (e.g. Psalm 97:11; Acts 14:17) and enjoyment (Ecclesiastes 3:12-13; 1 Timothy 6:17).

The earth is full of the goodness of the Lord. (Psalm 33:5; see also Psalm 119:64)
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In His awesome love, the Lord is even "kind to the unthankful and evil" (Luke 6:35). Israel's history well illustrates this. Nehemiah records,

You gave them bread from heaven for their hunger, and brought them water out of the rock for their thirst, and told them to go in to possess the land which You had sworn to give them. But they and our fathers acted proudly, hardened their necks, and did not heed Your commandments. They refused to obey, and they were not mindful of Your wonders that You did among them. But they hardened their necks, and in their rebellion they appointed a leader to return to their bondage. But You are God, ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, abundant in kindness, and did not forsake them. (Nehemiah 9:15)


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Although, "with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness" (1 Corinthians 10:5), God did not utterly forsake them (Nehemiah 9:31), but was abundant in His kindness toward Israel (Nehemiah 9:18-31).


Jonah knew well the lovingkindness of the Lord, so well, he fled to Tarshish. He did not want the Lord to save the Ninevites. After the entire city of Ninevah repented in response to Jonah's preaching (Luke 11:32), Jonah lamented,

Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish.; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm. (Jonah 4:2)
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Jonah wanted harm, not mercy, for the Ninevites, but the Lord had other plans; because He is abundant in lovingkindness. Yet, God's kindness is not without bounds.

Ninevah did not remain in His goodness (Romans 11:22). Therefore, the Lord later testified against Ninevah and declared,

God is jealous, and the Lord avenges; the Lord avenges and is furious. The Lord will take vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies; the Lord is slow to anger and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked. (Nahum 1:2-3)


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Ninevah, eventually, was destroyed (Nahum 3:5-7).

Furthermore, in His kindness, God afflicts people and then saves them, as Psalm 107 testifies.​

Fools, because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, were afflicted. Their soul abhorred all manner of food, and they drew near to the gates of death. Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble, and He saved them out of their distresses. He sent His word and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions. Oh, that men would give thanks to the Lord for His goodness, and for His wonderful works to the children of men! (Psalm 107:17-21; see also verses 10-15 & 23-31)


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This is the kindness of God towards men. As rebuke is a kindness (Psalm 141:5; Proverbs 27:6; Revelation 3:19), so God's affliction is a kindness to bring people to repentance (Romans 2:4). Although, men often do not take heed (e.g. Amos 4:6-11; Revelation 9:20-21; 16:8-11). But, those who do repent speak like this:

It is good for me that I have been afflicted, that I may learn Your statutes. (Psalm 119:71)

I know, O Lord, that Your judgments are right, and that in faithfulness You have afflicted me. (Psalm 119:75)​

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[SIZE=+2]III. God Does Not Envy (1 Corinthians 13:4).[/SIZE]

The possessor of heaven and earth (Genesis 14:19, 22; Deuteronomy 10:14) would never envy (Job 34:12). Who or what would there be to envy? He is the One Who created everything (Isaiah 42:5). He is the One Who "gives to all life, breath, and all things" (Acts 17:25). He is the One Who upholds "all things by the word of His power" (Hebrews 1:3). "The Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses" (Daniel 4:32). What is left for God to envy?​

The godly may be tempted to envy the wicked (e.g. Psalm 37:1; 73:1-3; Proverbs 23:17; 24:1), but when they enter "the sanctuary of God," the santuary of love, they understand their end (Psalm 73:17-20); and the envy dissipates (Psalm 73:21-28). When they enter the sanctuary of Love (God), they see, in reality, all things considered, the wicked, and their lot, is undesirable (Psalm 37:2, 9; 73:18-20; Proverbs 24:19-20).​

[SIZE=+2]IV. The Lord Does Not Parade Himself (1 Corinthians 13:4).[/SIZE]​

"Love does not parade itself" (1 Corinthians 13:4, NKJV). Thus, we know God, who is love, does not parade Himself. As Job said,​

If He goes by me, I do not see Him; if He moves past, I do not perceive Him. (Job 9:11)
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Look, I go forward, but He is not there, and backward, but I cannot perceive Him; when He works on the left hand, I cannot behold Him; when He turns to the right hand, I cannot see Him. (Job 23:9)

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Why? Because,

Truly You are God, who hide Yourself, O God of Israel. (Isaiah 45:15)
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The Lord hides Himself. He does not parade Himself, nor does He brag (1 Corinthians 13:4, NAS) or boast (1 Corinthians 13:4, NIV). Jesus said, "I do not receive honor from men" (John 5:41; note also Isaiah 53:2).

[SIZE=+2]V. God Is Not Proud (1 Corinthians 13:4).[/SIZE]​

Love is not puffed up (1 Corinthians 13:4), therefore God is not puffed up. Jesus said,

Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. (Matthew 11:29)
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The Lord is indeed lowly in heart. Although He is the King of Kings (1 Timothy 6:15), when He came to Jerusalem, He came in a humble way. As it is written,

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, lowly and riding on a donkey, a colt, the foal of a donkey. (Zechariah 9:9; see also Matthew 21:1-9)
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Furthermore, the Lord dwells "with him who has a contrite and humble spirit" (Isaiah 57:15). He dwells with the lowly. As it is written,

God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. (James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:5)
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Moreover, it takes humility on His part to have anything to do with His creation. As Psalm 113 says,​

The Lord is high above all nations, His glory above the heavens. Who is like the Lord our God, Who dwells on high, Who humbles Himself to behold the things that are in the heavens and in the earth? (Psalm 113:3-6)
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He humbles Himself just to look into the universe (the heavens), let alone to gaze upon the earth (Psalm 113:3-6).

Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; His understanding is infinite. (Psalm 147:5)


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"And His greatness is unsearchable" (Psalm 145:3). There is no pride in Him. "The Lord is righteous in all His ways" (Psalm 145:17).

[SIZE=+2]VI. The Lord Is Not Rude (1 Corinthians 13:5).[/SIZE]

Love does not behave rudely (1 Corinthians 13:5), therefore God does not behave rudely. But what is rude? The Greek word used in 1 Corinthians 13:5 for "rudely" is only used one other place in the New Testament and that's in 1 Corinthians 7:36 translated "improperly." The Lord does not behave improperly, or rudely.​

Even though Christ is the Rock of Offense (Isaiah 8:14; Romans 9:33) and men were offended (Matthew 13:57; 15:12; Mark 6:3) and are offended because of Him (1 Peter 2:8), He nonetheless behaves properly, and not rudely. "For the Lord is righteous,"and He loves righteousness (Psalm 11:7).​

Even though God has spread dung upon people's faces (Malachi 2:3, KJV), describes males as those who "pisseth against the wall" (1 Kings 14:10; 16:11; 21:21, KJV), and has caused people to eat their own children (Leviticus 26:27-29; Deuteronomy 28:53-63), He is never rude. He behaves properly, for God is love (1 John 4:8). He speaks truth (Psalm 33:4; 119:160; Proverbs 12:17) and judges at the proper time (Psalm 75:2).​

[SIZE=+2]VII. The Lord Does Not Seek His Own (1 Corinthians 13:5).[/SIZE]​

Love does not seek its own, and this is beautifully illustrated in Christ,​

who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. (Philippians 2:6-8)
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Jesus did not do this for Himself, as He Himself said.

For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. (John 6:38)


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Jesus was so engrossed in love His food was to do the Father's will (John 4:34). The Lord did not seek his own (John 5:30).

But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities. (Isaiah 53:5)

He poured out His soul unto death. (Isaiah 53:12)

For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:6-8)​

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)​

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When you understand how God hates sinners (Psalm 5:5-6) and how repulsive they are in His eyes (Deuteronomy 25:16; Proverbs 3:32; 6:16-19; 11:20; 15:8-9, 26; 16:5; 17:15; 21:27; 28:9), then, and only then, can you truly understand the immensity of God's love towards mankind. For He sacrificed His own Son, and His Son sacrificed His own life, for those who are or were loathsome to Him (Proverbs 13:5).

By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. (1 John 3:16)
​

[SIZE=+2]VIII. God Is Not Provoked (1 Corinthians 13:5).[/SIZE]

God has been provoked time and again in the past (e.g. Deuteronomy 9:7-8, 22; 32:16, 21; Judges 2:12; Psalm 78:40, 56-58; Mark 3:5) and is daily provoked by ungodly men (Psalm 7:11; Romans 1:18). When Christ was on the earth, at least twice He cleared the temple in His zeal for His house (John 2:13-17; Matthew 21:12-13), but His anger is right. "The wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God" (James 1:20), but the wrath of God is good (Psalm 34:8; 90:11; 100:5; 145:17).​

Now, if God is so provoked, how or in what way is the Lord not provoked? Just as there is a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing, a time to love and a time to hate (Ecclesiastes 3:3, 5, 8), so there is a time to be angry (Psalm 4:4; Ephesians 4:26) and a time not to be (Ephesians 4:31); and the Lord knows this perfectly.​

He is the Rock, His work is perfect; for all His ways are justice, a God of truth and without injustice; righteous and upright is He. (Deuteronomy 32:4)

As for God, His way is perfect. (Psalm 18:30)​

​

In His perfect way, the Lord is not provoked in any way He should not be. For example, when Jesus came,

God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. (John 3:17)


​

Therefore, when Jesus was on the earth He was not provoked into condemning anyone (e.g. John 8:11), even though He hates wickedness (Psalm 45:7).

For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them. (Luke 9:56)
​

Although God's wrath continued to abide on those who do not obey Him (John 3:36, NAS), and continued to be revealed from heaven as Christ walked the earth (e.g. Luke 13:1-5; Romans 1:18), and He continued to be angry with the wicked (Psalm 7:11), Christ's mission in the flesh was not to be provoked, but to save. As He Himself said,

I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. (John 12:47)
​

 

[trust_in_the_name]

[SIZE=+2]IX. God Thinks No Evil (1 Corinthians 13:5).[/SIZE]

Jesus said, "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts" (Mark 7:21), and Jeremiah writes, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked" (Jeremiah 17:9). But God has no such evil heart (Psalm 18:26; 1 John 3:3). He has no evil thoughts. He thinks no evil. For His thoughts are above our thoughts and His ways above our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9).

1 Corinthians 13:5 "thinks no evil" (NKJV) may also be translated a little more literally, "does not consider the bad" (ou logizetai to kakon). This is consistent with love.

Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all sins. (Proverbs 12:10)
​

He who covers a transgression seeks love. (Proverbs 17:9)
​

Love is merciful and forgiving, and in this, the Lord is the Champion (Hebrews 7:25; 1 John 2:1-2). He says,
​

"Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword;" for the mouth of the Lord has spoken. (Isaiah 1:18-20)
​

For those who are willing and obedient (verse 19), the Lord is extremely merciful and will not consider the bad (1 Corinthians 13:5). As He says in Isaiah 55,
​

Seek the Lord while He may be found, call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, and He will have mercy on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon. (Isaiah 55:6-7; see also Psalm 86:5)
​

In His love, God's forgiveness is massive.
​

For as the heavens are high above the earth, so great is His mercy toward those who fear Him. (Psalm 103:11)
​

This mercy is toward those who fear Him. Although the Lord may be temporarily merciful to wicked men and then He torments them (e.g. Matthew 18:21-35), His mercy toward those who fear Him has no end. As Psalm 103 declares,
​

The mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him, and His righteousness to children's children, to such as keep His covenant, and to those who remember His commandments to do them. (Psalm 103:17; see also Psalm 25:10)
​

God's eternal love does have a condition (Isaiah 48:22; 57:15-21). It is for those who keep His covenant, who remember to do His commandments (Revelation 22:14), who are pure in heart (Psalm 24:3-5; 73:1), and who devise good, as it is written.
​

Do they not go astray who devise evil? But mercy and truth belong to those who devise good. (Proverbs 14:22)
​

[SIZE=+2]X. The Lord Does Not Rejoice In Iniquity (1 Corinthians 13:6).[/SIZE]

Love does not rejoice in iniquity (1 Corinthians 13:6). Instead, love (God) hates wickedness (Psalm 45:7). It is wicked not to hate evil (Psalm 36:1-4), thus the Lord hates sin and in no way rejoices in it. Evil men rejoice in iniquity (Proverbs 2:14), but the Lord is not like wicked men.

For the Lord is righteous, He loves righteousness; His countenance beholds the upright. (Psalm 11:7)
​

An example of the Lord not rejoicing in iniquity can be found in Mark 3.

And He entered the synagogue again, and a man was there who had a withered hand. So they watched Him closely, whether He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him. And He said to the man who had the withered hand, "Step forward." Then He said to them, "Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?" But they kept silent. And when He had looked around at them with anger, being grieved by the hardness of their hearts, He said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored as whole as the other. (Mark 3:1-5)
​

Jesus did not rejoice in their iniquity, but instead it made Him angry and grieved Him. The Scriptures are filled with example after example of the Lord not rejoicing in iniquity, but rather, being angry and grieved over the wickedness of mankind (e.g. Genesis 6:5-7; Psalm 78:40; 95:10-11; Isaiah 63:10).

[SIZE=+2]XI. The Lord Rejoices In The Truth (1 Corinthians 13:6).[/SIZE]

Although He was a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief (Isaiah 53:3), the one time Scripture records Christ rejoicing is when He rejoiced in the truth.

In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight." (Luke 10:21)
​

Rejoicing in the Spirit is rejoicing in the truth, because He is the Spirit of truth (John 14:17; 15:26; 16:13). Christ here rejoiced in the work and truth of God, that is, how God hid the truth from some people and revealed it to others. This is how God works.

God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. (1 Corinthians 1:27-29)
​

Jesus rejoiced in this truth, because He is love; and love rejoices in the truth.

[SIZE=+2]XII. God Bears All Things (1 Corinthians 13:7).[/SIZE]

Throughout the ages, the Lord has patiently borne with lawless and insubordinate men, murderers, adulterers, fornicators, sodomites, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, blasphemers, boasters, backbiters, lovers of money, lovers of themselves, traitors, rebels, slanderers, hypocrites, fools, despisers of good, haters of God, the covetous, the violent, the unthankful, the unforgiving, the unmerciful, and unholy men (e.g. Romans 3:25). Truly God has borne and does bear all things, and His forbearance should lead men to repentance (Romans 2:4). But for most (Matthew 7:13-14), their hard impenitent hearts treasure up for themselves wrath for the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God (Romans 2:5). Even though God, being love, bears all things, He does not bear all things indefinitely. As He said to Moses,

How long shall I bear with this evil congregation who complain against Me? (Numbers 14:27)
​

The answer to the Lord's question is given in the next verse.

"As I live," says the Lord, "just as you have spoken in My hearing, so I will do to you: The carcasses of you who have complained against Me shall fall in this wilderness, all of you who were numbered, according to your entire number, from twenty years old and above. Except for Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun." (Numbers 14:28-30)
​

His forbearance for these Israelites was all used up within the course of the next forty years. The Lord killed them in the wilderness (Numbers 14:32-35).

Likewise, the Lord bore long and hard with the Israelites before the Babylonian captivity.

The Lord God of their fathers sent warnings to them by His messengers, rising up early and sending them, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place. But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against His people, till there was no remedy. (2 Chronicles 36:15-16)
​

The Lord could no longer bear it, because of the evil of their doings and because of the abominations which they committed (Jeremiah 44:22). So His fury and anger were poured out and kindled in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem; and they were wasted and desolate (Jeremiah 44:6).
Jesus, being holy and perfect in love, bore long and hard all things while He walked on the earth, but His forbearance was not without comment.

And when they had come to the multitude, a man came to Him, kneeling down to Him and saying, "Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic and suffers severely; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water. So I brought him to Your disciples, but they could not cure him." Then Jesus answered and said, "O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him here to Me." (Matthew 17:14-17; see also Mark 9:14-19 & Luke 9:37-41)
​

It takes endurance to bear all things, and Christ had it; although the people around Him obviously greatly taxed His love.

[SIZE=+2]XIII. God Believes All Things (1 Corinthians 13:7).[/SIZE]

The Greek word used in 1 Corinthians 13:7 (pisteuei) has inherent in it the ideas of faith, trust, & belief which indicates love is always faithful, believing, and trusting. God is indeed always faithful (Psalm 119:90; Hosea 11:12). Yet, God is not naive or simple minded as in Proverbs 14:15. His understanding is infinite (Psalm 147:5). But, He nonetheless does believe all things, all things that are true that is (John 14:6; Titus 1:2). And though He would not entrust Himself to evil men (e.g. John 2:24-25), He is nonetheless very trusting; as the NIV says, love "always trusts" (1 Corinthians 13:7).
Eliphaz the Temanite accused God of not being trusting, but this was a lie. On two occasions Eliphaz made this claim:

If He puts no trust in His servants, if He charges His angels with error, how much more those who dwell in houses of clay. (Job 4:18-19)

If God puts no trust in His saints, and the heavens are not pure in His sight, how much less man, who is abominable and filthy, who drinks iniquity like water! (Job 15:15-16)
​

Eliphaz did not correctly characterize the Lord (Job 42:7). For God does put trust in His angels. He entrusts them with very important tasks (e.g. Daniel 9:21-23; Matthew 28:2-7; Luke 1:26; 2:9-14; 22:43; Acts 10:3-6; Hebrews 1:14; Revelation 7:1-3; 8:2; 12:7-9; 14:6-9; 16:1; 20:1-3). Moreover, He even puts trust in man, even though men fail Him time and again.

For example, David was entrusted with the great task of ruling God's people, but even David failed the Lord in this, in part, in the matter of Uriah the Hititite. Because of David's unfaithfulness, he had "given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme" (2 Samuel 12:14). Solomon was likewise entrusted by God with the kingdom, but even Solomon, "who was beloved of his God" (Nehemiah 13:26), "did evil in the sight of the Lord" (1 Kings 11:6).

The Lord does a great deal of trusting men and women with responsibilities and lives, from the care of the earth and the life upon it (Psalm 8:5-8; Revelation 11:18), to governing over people (Romans 13:1-2), to caring for children (Ephesians 6:4; Titus 2:4-5). Men are entrusted by God with great and important tasks, and they will all give an account for their deeds (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14; Hebrews 4:12-13). Despite the faithfulness or unfaithfulness of men, the Lord remains steadfast in love and is faithful in all things (Psalm 36:5; 89:8). As it is written,

If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself. (2 Timothy 2:13)
​

[SIZE=+2]XIV. The Lord Hopes All Things (1 Corinthians 13:7).[/SIZE]

This is an amazing phenomena (Romans 11:33). Although God has already predestined the eternal destiny of all mankind (e.g. Psalm 92:5-7; 139:16; Proverbs 16:4; Romans 9:11-23; Ephesians 1:4-5; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; Revelation 17:8) with the majority being destined to hell (Matthew 7:13-14; 22:14), being love and hoping all things He hopes that all might repent, seek Him, and be saved nonetheless. As it is written,
​

God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. (Acts 17:24-27)
​

The Lord is indeed love (1 John 4:8) and therefore extremely loving and,
​

desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4)
​

He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:23, 32; 33:11). He has wept profusely over the lost (Jeremiah 8:18-9:3) and has even been found to strip Himself naked in wailing and howling for His people (Micah 1:8). Time and again He is seen in love hoping for their obedience, but they refuse (e.g. Deuteronomy 5:29; 32:29; Psalm 81:13; Isaiah 48:18; Luke 19:41-44). And why do they refuse? Because He makes them refuse (Deuteronomy 29:2-4; Proverbs 16:9; 20:24; Isaiah 63:17; Jeremiah 10:23; Hebrews 2:10). Truly His ways are past finding out (Romans 11:33)!

[SIZE=+2]XV. God Endures All Things (1 Corinthians 13:7).[/SIZE]

God wants to show His wrath and to make His power known, but He endures "with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" (Romans 9:22). He does this because He is love. He endures all things, even the wicked who were made to be destroyed (Proverbs 16:4; 2 Peter 2:12). This love, this endurance, is practiced because He also wants to "make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy" (Romans 9:23). Therefore, love (endurance) is shown toward the wicked, so that love may be shown toward the elect.

Yet, the most graphic example of this can be found in Christ. Jesus, the King of Glory (Psalm 24:7-10), in a radical show of love for God and man, endured the cross, despising the shame (Hebrews 12:2). He endured blasphemous hostility from sinners (Matthew 27:39; Luke 23:39; Hebrews 12:3). He endured being forsaken by God (Psalm 22:1; Matthew 27:46) and stricken (Isaiah 53:4, 8). He endured being spat upon and beaten (Matthew 26:67), mocked, insulted and bruised (Isaiah 53:10; Matthew 27:29-31; Luke 18:32) scourged, nailed (Psalm 22:16; Colossians 2:14) and finally killed (Luke 18:33). He endured all these things because He is love. Love endures all things (1 Corinthians 13:7).

[SIZE=+2]XVI. God Never Fails (1 Corinthians 13:8).[/SIZE]

The Lord is righteous in her midst, He will do no unrighteousness. Every morning He brings His justice to light; He never fails. (Zephaniah 3:5)
​

God never fails and this is especially manifest toward His elect. As it is written,
​

The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord, and He delights in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; for the Lord upholds him with His hand. I have been young, and now am old; Yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his descendants begging bread. (Psalm 37:23-25)
​

God's love never fails toward those whom He has chosen. Nothing can separate them from the love of Christ (Romans 8:29-39).
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The Lord is good to those who wait for Him, to the soul who seeks Him. (Lamentations 3:25)
Through the Lord's mercies we are not consumed, because His compassions fail not. (Lamentations 3:22)
​

He will never leave us nor forsake us (Hebrews 13:5), because He is love and love never fails (1 Corinthians 13:8).
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[WeStand]

I have a question to put out there that I thought some seasoned Christians might have some insight into. A lot of times my non-believer friends will use all the crummy stuff (wars, floods, Israelites getting smited) that happens in the old testament as examples for why they would hate god even if he did exist. I just kind of wonder if there is any way to explain why a perfect god does stuff that doesn't seem too nice in our human views. Does anyone have any insight on how to deal with that kind of stuff?

Hi Alli84; Well you may call it seasoned, i call it being taken to the woodshed I have to admit that it is tough to deal with this, as i dealt with it most of my life, and even felt the same way many times myself.

The best way i feel to share this understanding, is to give you some of my personal testimony; as this is how i learned this, the hard way.

I have always beleived in Christ since i can remember; through a childhood accident i ended up as a young adult, developing a chronic pain situation from nerve damage. I went through over 18 years of suicidle level pain attacks, that felt nothing short of someone driving a butcherknife through my eye, and then twitched it every so often, for an hour to an hour and a half; at least once a day and sometimes 2 or 3 times a day.

I tried every therapy and pain killer known to man, i prayed and had been prayed over, nothing helped even a litte bit.

This condition ,over this length of time , actually caused my faith to dwindle, with many times calling out to God sincerely asking him; How? if your real? can you possibly leave a child of yours in SO MUCH pain? if you Love me?

Finally one day i got so fed up, that i gave up, and yelled at God, and told Him that i didn't beleive in Him anymore and that i'll now do whatever i wanted, even commiting suicide, if i so choose.

In less than 12 hours, i was exsposed to the most sincere Pastor that i have ever known in my 40 years of seeking truth. I just happened to catch him teaching Genisis chapter 1 verse 1, at 4:30 in the morning. That was over 8 years ago now, and although i had lost everything i had, including my faith and my family; i had started to find what i was always searching for, Truth, Gods Word.

As i started learning the Truth, day by day, verse by verse, chapter by chapter, prayer by prayer, share by share, I was very early on shown a way to control my pain, through what some may call instincts, i say The Holy Spirit, by building what i reffer to as a body cast, for sleeping purposes.

I have been pain free now for pretty well all of the 8 years i have been learning Truth, and still learning.

Needless to say, one of the questions i often wondered about, was the one i had asked Him for so many years, crying out in sheer pain. But i never got around to asking Him, as i wasn't having pain anymore, and was so enthralled in hearing all this truth, that well, it just didn't seem that important.

At about the 5 year mark of learning Truth, when that question was no longer on my mind, as i had just figured it would be something for The Lords Day; While meditating upon The Word, i get this clear cut message message from The Holy Spirit; IF you ever again, think for even one second, that I AM responsible for your pain, or anybody elses pain, or any of this disgusting and evil garbage that is taking place where you are, Then it would be clear to Me (God) that not do you not only understand Me, But clearly you don't even know Me,

Mans Will, brings about litte gunner boys ( a lack of trusting and checking with God)

Gods Will, brings about little Drummer Boys (that John the Baptist Attitude) whatever you wanna do Herod, but NO i won't stop witnessing.

The Gospel, GOOD NEWS is that this all ends in Gods Will, with nobody hurting anybody, and this time, if you have any commen sense, and realize the weapons that these nations are begining to engage with; that if i were to allow it to go on like the last 7 examples of evil; well quite frankly, there would be nothing left to save.

So just DO what He asked from the very begining, The same 2 Commandments that Christ Confirmed.

Love your God TRUST with all your strength soul and mind, Sing LOUD Praises unto Me.

Go forth and multiply and DON'T hurt anybody; Love your neighbour as yourself.

And MOST OF ALL, DO NOT BE DECEIVED when the one Responsible for ALL of this evil; Comes and commits in ALL his splendid glory, peacably and prospersly, the Abomination of impersonating Christ (anti-christ) and acting like the Big Hero, who God is going to USE, to fufill His Will, in getting EVERYONE to drop their guns, and then get most of the people in the world to worship him.

DO NOT be the first one taken; rather stay in the feild doing The Fathers Will, demonstrating your TRUST and LOVE in HIM; Satan will be performing the Greater Miricles; Gods children will be receiving the Greater Healings, that Christ Promised, when He stated, that there would be Greater miricles and healings than that of Him and the Apostles; this has clearly NOT taken place, YET

Anyway, hopes this helps you in some way

Forever in Christ

 

[VW]

I asked God once, with tears and anguish, why He had allowed me to be abused as a child. I yelled at Him that I would have turned to be a much better person if I had not been abused, that the innocence that I had then would have still been mine now. He answered me plainly, audibly, that He knew what would happen to me, from the very beginning, and that He used and would continue to use those things to create in me the life of Christ. And then, just to make sure that I understood the truth, He let me know that I would have had a much harder time receiving grace from Him if I had remained (what I thought of as) innocent.

There are things which have not been known, things done that defy belief. God did not do these things. But know this, every word will be answered for. Every deed will be paid for. Every drop of blood will be revealed that has been spilled. In the end, there will be justice, and then there will never again be sin or death or tears, forever.

In Christ

 

[Alli84]

Thanks you guys, this all helped a lot. I think this may be one of those things that I will just have to continue learning and trying to understand my whole life. But this definitely changed my perspective considerably.

 

[loveschild]

It's easy for people to blame God instead of themselves. The people in the bible were protected when they obeyed God and were under his covering. When they disobeyed and stepped out from his protection is when the bad stuff happened. Lots of the people in the bible worshiped demon gods and they reaped what they sowed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have a question to put out there that I thought some seasoned Christians might have some insight into. A lot of times my non-believer friends will use all the crummy stuff (wars, floods, Israelites getting smited) that happens in the old testament as examples for why they would hate god even if he did exist. I just kind of wonder if there is any way to explain why a perfect god does stuff that doesn't seem too nice in our human views. Does anyone have any insight on how to deal with that kind of stuff?

Hi Alli,

A few thoughts, I think we all forget, if Gods justice reigned and he had no love, Mankind would have been snapped out of existence, Or if he did allow us to live, we would all be under the strong arm of Tyrany, Slaves to evil, Probably all dieing of some horrible debilitating disease. But God is love.

Another thing we need to think of is this. If god took away all pain, suffering and evil, who would look for God? What reason would we have to find god if we can do anything we want, and not suffer any consequences.

Also, As someone said, God does not cause suffering, He allows it. Those OT things you spoke of was allowing those nations who came up against Israel to do it. The thing is, they wanted to, They always di. It was just at times God protected them. Other times, God removed his protection. And allowed others to do what they wanted (due to sin of Israel). He also allows sickness to happen to even his children. Again he is a fair God. And he did not cause it, It is a result of sin.

Finally, Remember Gods love, Christ came to Earth, Suffered more than any man ever would (no man would have survived his beating and made it to the cross alive) then he had to endure the wrath of God for My sin, your sin, and everyone else's sin. He not only suffered pain from evil. he suffered pain from judgment on our behalf.

Then, Scripture talks about God being patient now, willing that none should parish. But there is a day God will no longer hold back. We know that day as Armageddon. the final great battle where Christ takes vengence on all the evil things which has happened to us.

 

[resurrection33]

I have a question to put out there that I thought some seasoned Christians might have some insight into. A lot of times my non-believer friends will use all the crummy stuff (wars, floods, Israelites getting smited) that happens in the old testament as examples for why they would hate god even if he did exist. I just kind of wonder if there is any way to explain why a perfect god does stuff that doesn't seem too nice in our human views. Does anyone have any insight on how to deal with that kind of stuff?

One reason the Lord is perfect is that he is willing to discipline us when we go astray. Sometimes the discipline has to be severe because that is the only way to get people to repent.

 

[1Covenant]

Let me first say that a chat room makes it difficult to answer the question. And I am just going to blurt this out based on my gut so I hope it is not too messy.


However, the answer is not in some philosophical reason whereby we get to excuse God for his acts in history. The answer is for people to have their faith built by the hearing of God’s Word, the Gospel message. God is faithful from of Old and he is the Ancient of days.

I believe that the OT should be understood as the outworking of Genesis 3:15 (emnity of the two seeds) unfolding in history. It is because of man's sin and inability to "know" God that the struggle endures until Christ's coming. And what more is this struggle but that between sin and the promise of righteous deliverance. The struggle itself and God's continuing intervention on behalf of His promise, throughout history, is what highlights both the depths of man's sinful rebellion and their need for deliverance as promised. The NT says that all this (OT) happened to them for our sake and it is through the prism of the NT that we understand the spiritual nature of what is going on in the OT (read Hebrews, Galatians, etc.). Even in Revelations, where I will end, it declares that the NT (apostles) is the foundation of the great city and the tribes built upon it. Christ likewise said and taught the disciples that all of the OT was about Him.

Therefore in the OT we should see:
1.Struggle of the two seeds
2.hope of a righteous deliverance over and against sinfulness
3.contrast of sin and righteousness
4.deliverance through judgment
5.God's goodness to intervene, keep, and deliver his promise through the OT rebellion is glorious rather than shameful.
For Example:
·Deliverance is through the Seed of the promise while sin and destruction is for the Seed of the Serpent

·Abel's sacrifice accepted and Cain kills Abel
·God provides a Godly seed (Seth) in place of Abel
·Seth’s lineage compared to Cain's lineage
·The intermarrying of the Cain and Seth's lineage and God's displeasure at the rejection of the promise of the seed by the godly.
·God's goodness to preserve the promise of deliverance in Noah through God’s judgment of sinful seed
·Noah's blessing of Shem is the restoration of the Genesis promise - Ham will serve Japheth and Shem, while Japheth will dwell in Shem’s tents (all the nation s will be blessed within Shem). However the conflict is continued among the seeds because the promise has not come.

·The promise conferred by God to a Shemitic descendant: Abram (the nations blessed through his SEED)

·Lot (Moabites) and Abram
·Isaac and Ishmael
·Jacob and Esau (Edomites)

·Esau despised the birthright and had no care for the promise of the seed which is made all the more evident when he takes his wives from the land of Canaan.
​

·12 sons of Ishmael and the 12 sons of Jacob
·In Joseph we see the struggle of the seeds and the promise of delivering the "world" through a child of the promise
·Even in the exodus language God calls Israel his Son and there is this struggle of the seeds of Pharoah and Moses. Through Moses God intervenes to lay low the struggle and bring about his promise. He brings deliverance of one seed through the judgment of another.

·The comparisons go and on (David and Saul, David and Goliath, etc.).
God demonstrates through these historical events how he is faithful and even in His destruction he is displaying His promise to abolish and obliterate the seed of the enemy who ally themselves against God but who in the end are merely pictures of our true enemy - Satan.
This was also the call of the prophets to "faith-filled-ness", until the day when THE SEED arrives as promised with judgment and deliverance. For example when Micah declares that because of the sin of God's people, God is going to bring judgment down upon His own Temple, but it then declares the exaltation (deliverance) of the Temple and God's people afterward. Who is this, but THE Temple that was destroyed and raised again in 3 days and is this not the Genesis promise?
Likewise, when Christ arrives it should not be strange that we seen him also using this language of “children” and “father“ as when he calls the pharisees children of the devil. Neither should it be odd when his life is compared as the faithful Son (seed) in contrast to Israel who was called His son in the Exodus. Christ, in His life, is shown coming out of Egypt, being baptized, entering into the wilderness, but faithfully enduring temptation in the wilderness unlike Israel of old. Though God used Israel to display the message of God, Christ shows himself to be the True SEED and fullness of the shadow given in the OT. Now, instead of bringing destruction on the world as the shadow of things had done (Israel/war), he addresses the true enemy Seed - the great dragon himself. For God declares that we wrestle not against flesh and blood...

As the story begins so the story ends in revelations the woman gives birth to the seed promised and the great dragon is cast out and though not yet fully subdued he has been robbed of his power and we receive the future promise of a heavenly land secured flowing with milk and honey where there are no tears.

And to go one step further in concluding the Gen 3:15 promise of restoring what the devil destroyed in the Garden…just as God, when creation was new, made Eve as a new creation in Adam (His rib) and brought her to him in the Garden - behold we are made a new creation in Christ Jesus and at the conclusion of the Genesis 3:15 promise in time, we behold a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Hastily but Respectfully submitted

 

[jimmydiggs]

I'll keep it simple.
Why did the Israelites destroy cities and kill all of the people inside? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry <--- click

 

[journey41]

I have a question to put out there that I thought some seasoned Christians might have some insight into. A lot of times my non-believer friends will use all the crummy stuff (wars, floods, Israelites getting smited) that happens in the old testament as examples for why they would hate god even if he did exist. I just kind of wonder if there is any way to explain why a perfect god does stuff that doesn't seem too nice in our human views. Does anyone have any insight on how to deal with that kind of stuff?

[/QUOTE]Yes, it's a good question you asked. Of course you have to know how to answer them. This is where knowledge is important so we can back up the truth with reasons why God does certain things.

I cant explain it in short. But you can explain it to them like this, take what you need, and I encourage you to start reading the history yourself so you can answer with all confidence. Please note, that when someone knew picks up the bible, always tell them to start with the New Testament. Once they have learnt this, they can go through the old and understand it much better.

God had a plan right from the beginning. Part of his plan was to show the world that evil exists and things cant run smooth if we do things our way with no intervention from God, our maker. There is a deciever out there and the world had no knowledge of God (except a few chosen ones) or of what is good & evil, so they have to be taught now and it has to start with the Hebrews. God wanted to make a nation for himself. A nation that is different from all the rest, a nation that serves him. A nation that stands out from the rest.

God chose the Hebrews, but at that time they had been slaves in Egypt for 430 odd years. God planned to free them from the egyptians and give them their own land so he started with Moses. Moses was a born a hebrew. During this time, the hebrew population in Egypt had multiplied excessively and the king got worried because he saw them as a threat. He ordered all the hebrew baby boys under the age of 2 to be slaughtered to keep their numbers down. Moses mother wanted to save her child, so she put moses in a float, and sent him down the stream to where she knew the kings daughter was bathing. She set her older daughter to watch out for him and when the princess found him she decided to keep him for her own. Moses mother became the "wet nurse" and even fed her baby son for the princess. All Gods work. A little bit of history for you. Bear with me.

Moses was bought up in the palace and educated by the Egyptians. As he grew, he was given a title & authority over the Egyptians. This is all Gods work. Moses knew he was a Hebrew, and one day when he saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew Slave he struck him and killed him. Someone saw him, and Moses, in fear, fled to another land and hid for around 40 years.

One day, God spoke to Moses from a burning bush and told him he wanted to use him to free the Hebrews from Egypt. Moses was reluctant to return there and face the pharoah but God told him he would be with him all the way. Moses then obeyed, went and asked the King for permission to free the Hebrews and the king declined. God gave moses power to send a plague. The king kept refusing and many plagues were issued. God is showing the Hebrews and the Egyptians his power here. Those miracles were phenomenons and went down in history. Eventually the Hebrews were freed and it took Moses 40 years to walk to the promised land which God named Israel. The 10 commandments were given to Moses to teach the people on the start of their journey and later other laws followed. God did not want his people contaminated, so he was very strict. If you broke a commandment or disobeyed then you were stoned. During the journey, A lot of Hebrews were unthankful towards God for saving them and started complaining and whinging. They too were also killed by God. God does not like false Gods and images. He made that very clear to them in the first commandment. A lot of them turned back to these false Gods after being told not to. They had to be destroyed for the sake of the Good and for Gods name. This new nation was representing God, and earlier, through Gods miracles n Egypt, word spread of Gods power and how God was with them. When they passed through lands, God told them to smite all...including women and children. God is all knowing and can see inside the heart. He knows if the heart is wicked, or if the children will grow up to be like the parents, wicked. He created, and he can destroy. He can also bring back. We exist only because of him and not of ourselves. God knows what he is doing. It is all in his plan.

So God ordered the Hebrews to take the land that was he giving him. God knew that the original occupants would fight back and war would break loose so God said go and fight and I will be with you. Spare no one. God is still showing his power here. These other nations were wicked, again, as God can see inside the heart, whereas we cannot see that. So the Hebrews conquered, but only with Gods help. The enemy had to be taken out of the way for Gods purpose to be fulfilled. God is looking at the bigger picture. That war in Israel is still going on. Palestine still wants their land back.

So God was also strict on his people. He punished them often because he had to show them that he was serious and if they rebelled, then they would miss out. The Israelites became good for a while, but later strayed from the commandments given to them.

So now, because the Israelites rejected the Messiah, Jesus Christ, we gentiles are invited to learn. God has changed all those all laws, because they are heavy to bear and now we come in with a different law. It is a law of grace. God has given us mercy and is more tolerant of us now if we make a mistake. We are given chance after chance to repent and get strong to grow towards him. We do not kill now, because God says that vengeance is his. He will take care of the adversary. Those all laws were only for the Israelites back then because they had to take possession of the promised land and because also they, themselves were fully contaminated by the Egyptians and followed their false beliefs. He had to do what he did for the sake of the good. One rotten apple spoils the whole bunch. He will do this during judgement as well...get rid of the rotten apples..for the sake of the good. His plan will then be fulfilled.

 

[jfritzyb]

When God, the judge of the human race, executes justice in the earth people complain about it; but when a godly, just judge passes sentence on a criminal, many times we don't think twice about it, neither do we accuse him of being "uncompassionate" or "unmerciful".

Why then do people yell at God?

B/c they hate him and want nothing to do with Him; I have found that those who hate the justice of Jehovah are simultaneously seeking a god in their own image and likeness and one with no kind of standards whatsoever.

 

[1Covenant]

To hastily continue...the OT starts with the conflict of our great enemy the serpent saying to God's children "did God really say?" (do you believe God) and furthermore encouraging the idea that mankind could be as God (not needing God). The OT is the stage for the outworking of such themes and this conflict between the Spiritual Seeds of Satan and of the Seed of promise.

You will note that the promise is given to the seed of Adam but it is delivered through God's means the Jews. You will also note that if it was not for God's actions in the OT that the wickedness and rebellion of man would overcome all men, even among the people of God, and the victory of the serpent's "seed" would be assured and mankind lost to an eternity in Hell. This is the lesson of the days before Noah when God did not act. Men need God.

The days after the flood the people once again unite under one king not in their need of God's promised deliverance but instead unite through an earthly king, reaching toward the heavens. The danger noted by God is one of the people's self-reliance &#8211; a self-reliance which had just played out before the flood. Without God's kindness to act, mankind was headed back. Thus God disperses the people with tongues and calls again to man to remember the promised seed, as he calls Abram and promises to bless the nations he has just acted to create. You see God had just scattered the nations and the point of calling Abram was not to abandon the world and the promise he made to their earthly father Adam (Gen 3), but rather to renew that vow and promises again to keep his promise through Abraham. This theme also runs through the OT as the promise of the spirit and the nations coming to Israel to worship.

Ultimately, we do have hardship in the OT among all the kin as competing gods rise against the true Seed of promise and also as God shows himself faithful not only in using Israel as the means to hold back the evil of man, but to use the other nations (captivity) to call the faithful (Jews - who carried the promise), back to himself.

While there is much conflict in the OT between these spiritual seeds, we see in time the fruit of it in God&#8217;s delivering through it all the Seed of promise, Christ and His Holy Spirit. See in this promise fulfilled - the reversal of the judgment against the great tower of Babel. In direct contrast to the proud earthly King Nimrod who united the world in self-reliance, Christ the heavenly King comes humbly to the earth in reliance on God the Father and through Him comes judgment on the Seed of the serpent and deliverance to the nations, the barrier of the tongues is supernaturally addressed and the nations are united again in him as children of God, born of faith in Christ as Abraham&#8217;s seed.

Respectfully Submitted

 

[Shwagga]

-www.crossexamined.org
-www.reasonablefaith.com

Some cool websites to share with your friends.

Blessings.

 

[1Covenant]

And so finally, to answer more directly your question the utter destruction of the rebellious nations is typological of the eternal judgment, the second death. In the light of the typological nature of the OT we see that the Promised Land awaits the faithful people of God and utter and total destruction awaits the rebellious. There is no room made available in the promised land for anyone but the people of God. Here is the severity of God's holiness and here is the goodness of Christ Jesus that he is not willing that any should perish.

We then who are strong ought to bear with the scruples of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, leading to edification. For even Christ did not please Himself; but as it is written, “The reproaches of those who reproached You fell on Me.”For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.”Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

​

Respectfully Submitted
​

 

[stone]

I have a question to put out there that I thought some seasoned Christians might have some insight into. A lot of times my non-believer friends will use all the crummy stuff (wars, floods, Israelites getting smited) that happens in the old testament as examples for why they would hate god even if he did exist. I just kind of wonder if there is any way to explain why a perfect god does stuff that doesn't seem too nice in our human views. Does anyone have any insight on how to deal with that kind of stuff?

ALL THINGS WORK OUT FOR GOOD DOES IN CHRIST JESUS. BELIEVE BY FAITH . THEN HE REVEALS WHY.