The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

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Absolutely

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Jul 23, 2018
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I totally agree we do not suffer Gods wrath. Jesus drank that cup on our behalf by his death,burial and resurrection!
I started out many years ago with the pre trib belief but the more I have studied we will be saved from HIS wrath,so Im leaning to mid trib beliefs bc of the promise to keep us from Gods wrath.
All rapture verses are pretrib.

The more I study,the more that is verified.

That is how you know you are recieving truth. Over and over the bible verifies truth.

The other side of truth is "the impossibility". Truth also reveals postrib/midtrib as impossible
 

luigi

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Dec 6, 2015
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do you notice how the book has changed now ? It’s sealed and in Gods hand , no one is worthy to open it , then Christ appears and is worthy because he was slain and redeemed men to God ?

now the book is smaller and open for all to read , and it’s given to John and apostle of the New Testament and he’s being told “ you must prophecy again to all people “

Do you think the two witnesses are the law and prophets ,(the ot) represented by Moses and Elijah ?

and the second time it is a New Testament witness representing the apostles of Christ having been made ministers of the New Testament sent out to all people ?

do you think the little open book represents the gospel ? The second testament that was sent to gentiles alike all people ?


“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. ( revelation 5)

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

To simplify , do you think that the sealed book represents the old covenant which no one could fulfill but Christ when he came and died and rose , and then after he opens the book he gives the New Testament to John , a figure of the apostles and ministers of God ?
The sealed book that is opened by Christ contains all the data on the future, as John is told to come up to heaven where he is to be shown things that must come thereafter.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

What the two witnesses will be testifying about is the truth, about all that is happening and why, and that people should repent of their love for the things their hands produce that are causing all the great plagues throughout the earth seen in Revelation 8 & 9.

Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Remember the members of the fourth beast in Daniel 7 who is the same beast in Revelation 13, who sets up a new world order that all of mankind who are not written in the lambs book of life, will adore (Revelation 13:8), devours the whole world (Daniel 7:23). This consumerism policy that will be taken up by the whole world is responsible for the plagues in Revelation 8 & 9.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ to go along with that,

the "2W's 1260 days" CONCLUDE with the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" (per Rev11:8-14, esp v.14 / 8:13 / 9:12); and note that the 2W had been given the ability "to smite the earth with all PLAGUES as often as they will"

Revelation 11 -

3 And I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

4 These witnesses are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.a 5 If anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouths and devours their enemies. In this way, anyone who wants to harm them must be killed. 6 These witnesses have power to shut the sky so that no rain will fall during the days of their prophecy, and power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they wish.

The Witnesses Killed and Raised

7 When the two witnesses have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will wage war with them, and will overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified. 9 For three and a half days all peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will view their bodies and will not permit them to be laid in a tomb. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will gloat over them, and will celebrate and send one another gifts, because these two prophets had tormented them.

11 But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God entered the two witnesses, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell upon those who saw them. 12 And the witnesses heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud as their enemies watched them.

13 And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand were killed in the quake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe has passed. Behold, the third woe is coming shortly. [the "3rd Woe" being in connection with the "7th Trumpet," per two of the aforementioned Scripture references [at top])



[again, I believe the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe [unto the earth]" is the at the MID-trib time-frame... so I believe the "2W's 1260 days" extend into parts of BOTH HALVES (some before and some after MID-trib), for this reason]
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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Amen.
Yes hold fast ,good word.

And yes never forget that.

And yes pretrib rapture
If the pretrib position turns out to be correct. I'll wave at you in the sky & apologise. ;)
I expect we will all find out we were wrong about something.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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The sealed book that is opened by Christ contains all the data on the future, as John is told to come up to heaven where he is to be shown things that must come thereafter.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

What the two witnesses will be testifying about is the truth, about all that is happening and why, and that people should repent of their love for the things their hands produce that are causing all the great plagues throughout the earth seen in Revelation 8 & 9.

Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Remember the members of the fourth beast in Daniel 7 who is the same beast in Revelation 13, who sets up a new world order that all of mankind who are not written in the lambs book of life, will adore (Revelation 13:8), devours the whole world (Daniel 7:23). This consumerism policy that will be taken up by the whole world is responsible for the plagues in Revelation 8 & 9.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
so you definitely don’t identify the two witnesses as the law and prophets represented by moses ?

“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭4:11-14‬ ‭

“And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭17:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, ( 3 and a half years ) clothed in sackcloth.

These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:

and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:3, 6‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Moses and Aaron did so, as the Lord commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭7:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

does it change your thinking at all about the two witnesses ? Moses represents the law and Elijah represents the prophets making up the ot that witnesses of Jesus Christ

“For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

just some thoughts from scripture to consider thank you for the time you spent on your posts you have done really interesting thoughts
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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If the pretrib position turns out to be correct. I'll wave at you in the sky & apologise. ;)
I expect we will all find out we were wrong about something.
the key to understanding , is to learn that now
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬
“Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭4:11-14‬
I find it interesting that the word for "anointed" here (in Zech4:14), is "H3323 - yitshar," meaning, "fresh oil" - Strong's Hebrew: 3323. יִצְהָר (yitshar) -- fresh oil (biblehub.com)

... and in fact, some of the versions have it translated as such:

Douay-Rheims Bible
And he said: These are two sons of oil who stand before the Lord of the whole earth.

Darby Bible Translation
And he said, These are the two sons of oil, that stand before the Lord of the whole earth.

English Revised Version
Then said he, These are the two sons of oil, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Young's Literal Translation
And he saith, 'These are the two sons of the oil, who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth.'





[...which goes along with my study I'd put, some time back, about the "oil" (and in connection with Matt24:14/26:13--preached DURING the future trib years; [note also the wording "who stand there before the LORD" in Deut18:7 (vv.6-7)--interesting = ) ])]
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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I find it interesting that the word for "anointed" here (in Zech4:14), is "H3323 - yitshar," meaning, "fresh oil" - Strong's Hebrew: 3323. יִצְהָר (yitshar) -- fresh oil (biblehub.com)

... and in fact, some of the versions have it translated as such:

Douay-Rheims Bible
And he said: These are two sons of oil who stand before the Lord of the whole earth.

Darby Bible Translation
And he said, These are the two sons of oil, that stand before the Lord of the whole earth.

English Revised Version
Then said he, These are the two sons of oil, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Young's Literal Translation
And he saith, 'These are the two sons of the oil, who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth.'





[...which goes along with my study I'd put, some time back, about the "oil" (and in connection with Matt24:14/26:13--preached DURING the future trib years; [note also the wording "who stand there before the LORD" in Deut18:7 (vv.6-7)--interesting = ) ])]
Thanks for your thoughts
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Yup. = )


I see that in Zech4:14 [and 6:5; ...and Ps97:5(<--which verse uses both)], for the word "Lord," it is "H113 - adon/adown" (rather than "H3068 - Yahweh" as in Deut18:7 that I'd pointed out in my post above... nvm on that particular verse. = ) )
 

luigi

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Dec 6, 2015
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so you definitely don’t identify the two witnesses as the law and prophets represented by moses ?

“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭4:11-14‬ ‭

“And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭17:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, ( 3 and a half years ) clothed in sackcloth.

These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:

and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:3, 6‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Moses and Aaron did so, as the Lord commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭7:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

does it change your thinking at all about the two witnesses ? Moses represents the law and Elijah represents the prophets making up the ot that witnesses of Jesus Christ

“For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

just some thoughts from scripture to consider thank you for the time you spent on your posts you have done really interesting thoughts
I believe in context. And what the 2 witnesses will be testifying about in Revelation 11, has to do with what is going on in Revelation 8, 9, 10, 12 and 13. If you will notice, the beast who rises from the bottomless pit in Revelation 9, kills the two witnesses in Revelation 11. This beast who rises from the bottomless pit is another description of the same beast in Revelation 13 who rises from the sea. This beast whose worldwide policies of consumerism, cause all the plagues we see in Revelation 8 & 9.
The two witnesses in Revelation 11 are right here in the middle chapters 8 & 9, and 12 & 13, and so what they are testifying about has to do with what is happening, and why it is happening.
Check out Isaiah 24 about the curse that devours the whole earth and causes environmental destruction, famines, and other catastrophes. This is the same curse described in Zechariah 5, which goes over the whole earth. And if you look at Zech 4, you will note that the two witnesses are around when this curse that causes environmental destruction, famines, and other plagues; thereby denoting the curse that goes over the whole earth as that of the beasts consumerism policies that the whole world will be enamored with.

Isaiah 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Zechariah 5:3 Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.
 

Pilgrimshope

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I believe in context. And what the 2 witnesses will be testifying about in Revelation 11, has to do with what is going on in Revelation 8, 9, 10, 12 and 13. If you will notice, the beast who rises from the bottomless pit in Revelation 9, kills the two witnesses in Revelation 11. This beast who rises from the bottomless pit is another description of the same beast in Revelation 13 who rises from the sea. This beast whose worldwide policies of consumerism, cause all the plagues we see in Revelation 8 & 9.
The two witnesses in Revelation 11 are right here in the middle chapters 8 & 9, and 12 & 13, and so what they are testifying about has to do with what is happening, and why it is happening.
Check out Isaiah 24 about the curse that devours the whole earth and causes environmental destruction, famines, and other catastrophes. This is the same curse described in Zechariah 5, which goes over the whole earth. And if you look at Zech 4, you will note that the two witnesses are around when this curse that causes environmental destruction, famines, and other plagues; thereby denoting the curse that goes over the whole earth as that of the beasts consumerism policies that the whole world will be enamored with.

Isaiah 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Zechariah 5:3 Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.
ah so it seems we see things very differently , which is ok with me , still
An interesting discussion

Can I ask one more thing ? Do you see this event in revelation


“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:5‬ ‭

as the birth of Christ , and then this event after Satan failed to destroy him ?

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬

do you think revelation is depicting that event in chapter 12 ?

and then this is manifest because Christ is now on the throne at Gods right hand in the kingdom ?

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ:

for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

...And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:10-12, 17‬ ‭

So that the kingdom is now established in heaven but the earth is. NOw under satans temporary authority because christs kingdom being established in heaven , means he has no part in heaven anymore

so that explains why the church is taught this type of doctrine even 1900’uears who ?

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭6:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬


And maybe the dragon falling from heaven came when Christ was seated in heaven ? Or do you think the man child being taken to the throne of God is a different thing than Christ being taken there after his resurrection ?

“And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power,

and coming in the clouds of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭14:62‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you think those things also are out of context ?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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I see that in Zech4:14 [and 6:5; ...and Ps97:5(<--which verse uses both)], for the word "Lord," it is "H113 - adon/adown" (rather than "H3068 - Yahweh" as in Deut18:7 that I'd pointed out in my post above... nvm on that particular verse. = ) )
I was looking at this...

[H113 - adon/adown... quoting from BibleHub]

b. Adonay [H136] proper name of God, parallel with Yahweh, substitution for it often by scribal error, & eventually supplanting it. In earlier Isaiah 3:17 + (19 t. seeming to belong here), Amos 7:7,8; Amos 9:1; Ezekiel 18:25,29; Ezekiel 33:17,20; Ezekiel 21:14 (probably ׳אֲדֹנָי י as in usual phrase); [...<snip>...] הָאֱלֹהִים Daniel 9:3, אֱלֹהֵינוּ ׳א Daniel 9:9,15, הָאֵל ׳א Daniel 9:4 favour taking ׳א Daniel 1:2; Daniel 9:7,8 (יהוה ?) Daniel 9:16; Daniel 9:17; Daniel 9:19; Daniel 9:19; Daniel 9:19 as the divine name.

[end quoting; bold mine, bracketed inserts mine, parentheses original]



This "H136 - Adonay/Adonai" (related to "H113 - adon/adown") is used 10x (possibly 11x, if v.8 is counted) in Dan9 (in Daniel's prayer, in verses from v.3 to v.19) and 1x in Dan1 (in verse 2).... In chpt 9's prayer (10x or maybe 11x [and 3x in v.19 alone]), just before the Dan9:24-27 prophecy part.

H136 - 'Adonay - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (KJV) (blueletterbible.org)



I guess I just find that interesting, for some reason. = )
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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I was looking at this...

[H113 - adon/adown... quoting from BibleHub]

b. Adonay [H136] proper name of God, parallel with Yahweh, substitution for it often by scribal error, & eventually supplanting it. In earlier Isaiah 3:17 + (19 t. seeming to belong here), Amos 7:7,8; Amos 9:1; Ezekiel 18:25,29; Ezekiel 33:17,20; Ezekiel 21:14 (probably ׳אֲדֹנָי י as in usual phrase); [...<snip>...] הָאֱלֹהִים Daniel 9:3, אֱלֹהֵינוּ ׳א Daniel 9:9,15, הָאֵל ׳א Daniel 9:4 favour taking ׳א Daniel 1:2; Daniel 9:7,8 (יהוה ?) Daniel 9:16; Daniel 9:17; Daniel 9:19; Daniel 9:19; Daniel 9:19 as the divine name.

[end quoting; bold mine, bracketed inserts mine, parentheses original]



This "H136 - Adonay/Adonai" (related to "H113 - adon/adown") is used 10x (possibly 11x, if v.8 is counted) in Dan9 (in Daniel's prayer, in verses from v.3 to v.19) and 1x in Dan1 (in verse 2).... In chpt 9's prayer (10x or maybe 11x [and 3x in v.19 alone]), just before the Dan9:24-27 prophecy part.

H136 - 'Adonay - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (KJV) (blueletterbible.org)



I guess I just find that interesting, for some reason. = )
have you ever noticed this passage ?

“For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2:11-14, 16‬ ‭

intellect is different from The spirit the spirit comes from christs word

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when Paul says we have the mind of Christ he’s talking about the same thing John is here

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬


I realize this is not a good response to your post but the way to understand scripture is to learn what Jesus was saying about things in the gospel that’s the spirit we need to let into our minds and hearts

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we couldn’t know but now we do if we believe the lords teachings about things that’s really all I know
 

Pilgrimshope

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I believe in context. And what the 2 witnesses will be testifying about in Revelation 11, has to do with what is going on in Revelation 8, 9, 10, 12 and 13. If you will notice, the beast who rises from the bottomless pit in Revelation 9, kills the two witnesses in Revelation 11. This beast who rises from the bottomless pit is another description of the same beast in Revelation 13 who rises from the sea. This beast whose worldwide policies of consumerism, cause all the plagues we see in Revelation 8 & 9.
The two witnesses in Revelation 11 are right here in the middle chapters 8 & 9, and 12 & 13, and so what they are testifying about has to do with what is happening, and why it is happening.
Check out Isaiah 24 about the curse that devours the whole earth and causes environmental destruction, famines, and other catastrophes. This is the same curse described in Zechariah 5, which goes over the whole earth. And if you look at Zech 4, you will note that the two witnesses are around when this curse that causes environmental destruction, famines, and other plagues; thereby denoting the curse that goes over the whole earth as that of the beasts consumerism policies that the whole world will be enamored with.

Isaiah 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Zechariah 5:3 Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.
yes that curse is the Result of breaking of the old covenant

“A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭11:27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you know the seven seals ? Those are the judgements from the law that we’re guaranteed to come on them and then the world later if they broke the covenant he made with them through moses it was a blessing or a curse they made it a curse

for instance the first four judgements from the seals are in the law as a curse when they broke it



“And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭14:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But because Jerusalem was sent into all the world the curse followed them as did the gospel and salvation for it

“A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭5:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And I will persecute them with the sword, with the famine, and with the pestilence, and will deliver them to be removed to all the kingdoms of the earth, to be a curse, and an astonishment, and an hissing, and a reproach, among all the nations whither I have driven them:”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭29:18‬ ‭

Israel’s judgements from breaking the law spread into all the world . Those seals are Jesus who has now fulfilled the law for all man ,who was the only one who could do that , now sending forth the judgements of the law and prophets into the world upon those of the curse who reject salvation and the book of life the New Testament of the lord Jesus

the old covenant is curse and witnessed of a new covenant to come in Christ , the one that would be open to all people not sealed to all
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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I find it interesting that the word for "anointed" here (in Zech4:14), is "H3323 - yitshar," meaning, "fresh oil" - Strong's Hebrew: 3323. יִצְהָר (yitshar) -- fresh oil (biblehub.com)

... and in fact, some of the versions have it translated as such:
Douay-Rheims Bible - And he said: These are two sons of oil who stand before the Lord of the whole earth.
Darby Bible Translation - And he said, These are the two sons of oil, that stand before the Lord of the whole earth.
English Revised Version - Then said he, These are the two sons of oil, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
Young's Literal Translation - And he saith, 'These are the two sons of the oil, who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth.'
[...which goes along with my study I'd put, some time back, about the "oil" (and in connection with Matt24:14/26:13--preached DURING the future trib years; [note also the wording "who stand there before the LORD" in Deut18:7 (vv.6-7)--interesting = ) ])]
Just to add to this ^ :

[from my study that I posted excerpts from in past posts on the "olive oil" (this is not those posts, but related to the study)]


The same word (singular word in Hebrew) that is used in Zech4:3 and 4:11 (translated there as "olive trees [H2132 - zayith/zê-ṯîm (one word)]") is also used in the following two passages (at bottom):

(which goes along with my posts re: the study of the "[olive] oil" and "the lamps LIT" and "in the night"/"the night watches" [and Matt24:14/26:13 (IN/DURING the trib yrs [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"]), Matt25:1-13/Matt22:9-14, and Lk12:35,36,37,38,40,42-44,45-48 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" THEN the meal [G347]; etc, etc...])


Exodus 27:20-21 -

The Oil for the Lamps
(Leviticus 24:1–4)

20 And you are to command the Israelites to bring you pure oil of pressed [/beaten] olives [H2132] for the light, to keep the lamps burning continually.

21 In the Tent of Meeting, outside the veil that is in front of the Testimony, Aaron and his sons are to tend the lamps before the LORD from evening until morning. This is to be a permanent statute for the Israelites for the generations to come.


Leviticus 24:2-3 -

The Oil for the Lamps
(Exodus 27:20–21)

1 Then the LORD said to Moses, 2 “Command the Israelites to bring you pure oil of pressed [/beaten] olives [H2132] for the light, to keep the lamps burning continually.

3 Outside the veil of the Testimony in the Tent of Meeting, Aaron is to tend the lamps continually before the LORD from evening until morning. This is to be a permanent statute for the generations to come. 4 He shall tend the lamps on the pure gold lampstand before the LORD continually.
 
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Blade

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Nov 19, 2019
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Ok.. anyone else ever notice on the scrolls or bibles the text is not bold or huge? Seem even God didn't have to do that.. just a thought.

Ok there is no "doctrine" of the rapture. Well all know "Caught up" aka rapture is in the word of God. What no one can find is a simple verse saying pre-trib, mid-trib nor post-trib. Whats coming makes today seem like heaven. If we cannot live for Christ now we never will during the great tribulation. This tribulation .. the wrath of our Father we will not be around to see hear feel it. This is clear. Whats coming is not on this or that city. Its coming on the world and there is no place to hide.

The wise.. heard a prophet say "I am post-tribulation but.. If Christ comes now I am ready". That is wise. Well he knew there is no verse for pre, mid, posts. And most mid, post are not ready now. We see whats going on right now in front of our faces and most believers (I believe) have no clue whats really happening.

We need to get over our self and know that He alone will get glory for this. I remember this preacher talking about how God seemed far away like something was wrong. Now he and many would go out and pray all day.. for weeks to just seek Him. HAHA do we ever do this? He said Christ did show up and said.. if I had come I would not have taken you. <--that was all that man said of that. The lord showed him the past where the man would undress women in his mind.. He really didn't think he was sinning.

I never knew what that preacher believed about "Caught up". I did wonder what Christ was really saying to him. Some are so sure Christ is NOT coming now. Something even every angel in Heaven has no clue about.. yet we are so ..sorry.. puffed up and proud we know huh. Well duh we can put those verse together and .. there ya go.. proof!

Or.. or maybe we can just live for the king of kings lord of lords right now. To watch what we do think say.. to always be living for Him. I find that WONDERFUL! To always be repenting if when we fall. We would always be ready always looking up.

You were promised what? Not tomorrow.. so why not live have faith right now? Oh I use to be like some and post so verses brake it down how its org written blah blah blah. Yet.. nothing ever changed. Unless its of GOD and He is behind it.. its just self tying to shine.

Live for Him now.. expect Him every moment you live.. its was is always will be.. about HIM!
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Ok.. anyone else ever notice on the scrolls or bibles the text is not bold or huge? Seem even God didn't have to do that.. just a thought.

Ok there is no "doctrine" of the rapture. Well all know "Caught up" aka rapture is in the word of God. What no one can find is a simple verse saying pre-trib, mid-trib nor post-trib. Whats coming makes today seem like heaven. If we cannot live for Christ now we never will during the great tribulation. This tribulation .. the wrath of our Father we will not be around to see hear feel it. This is clear. Whats coming is not on this or that city. Its coming on the world and there is no place to hide.

The wise.. heard a prophet say "I am post-tribulation but.. If Christ comes now I am ready". That is wise. Well he knew there is no verse for pre, mid, posts. And most mid, post are not ready now. We see whats going on right now in front of our faces and most believers (I believe) have no clue whats really happening.

We need to get over our self and know that He alone will get glory for this. I remember this preacher talking about how God seemed far away like something was wrong. Now he and many would go out and pray all day.. for weeks to just seek Him. HAHA do we ever do this? He said Christ did show up and said.. if I had come I would not have taken you. <--that was all that man said of that. The lord showed him the past where the man would undress women in his mind.. He really didn't think he was sinning.

I never knew what that preacher believed about "Caught up". I did wonder what Christ was really saying to him. Some are so sure Christ is NOT coming now. Something even every angel in Heaven has no clue about.. yet we are so ..sorry.. puffed up and proud we know huh. Well duh we can put those verse together and .. there ya go.. proof!

Or.. or maybe we can just live for the king of kings lord of lords right now. To watch what we do think say.. to always be living for Him. I find that WONDERFUL! To always be repenting if when we fall. We would always be ready always looking up.

You were promised what? Not tomorrow.. so why not live have faith right now? Oh I use to be like some and post so verses brake it down how its org written blah blah blah. Yet.. nothing ever changed. Unless its of GOD and He is behind it.. its just self tying to shine.

Live for Him now.. expect Him every moment you live.. its was is always will be.. about HIM!
HI Blade!

We can do it all, have faith and anticipating and watching for the Lord's appearing. We don't have to chose one over the other.

Regarding the Lord's promise to gather us up to meet Him in the air, Paul said, "Comfort each other with these words."

In writing to Titus Paul said:

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone. It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."

Prior to Jesus promise to go and prepare places in the Father's house for us, He said, "Don't let your hearts be troubled."

* Don't let your hearts be troubled

* Comfort each other with these words

* As we wait for the blessed hope

* Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour

I say, continue having faith, continuing in prayer, staying in the word of God, taking advantage of every good work and looking for the imminent appearing the Lord to transform us immortal and glorified.

For those who believe that the church is to go through God's wrath, to suffer the same punishment as the wicked, cannot be watching for the Lord's imminent appearing, because to them God's wrath must take place first. And if God's wrath must take place first, then our hearts would certainly be troubled, there would be no reason to comfort each other with those words and the blessed hope would be no blessed hope.

Having a 'when it happens, it happens' attitude is not watching and anticipating the Lord's coming.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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HI Blade!

We can do it all, have faith and anticipating and watching for the Lord's appearing. We don't have to chose one over the other.

Regarding the Lord's promise to gather us up to meet Him in the air, Paul said, "Comfort each other with these words."

In writing to Titus Paul said:

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone. It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."

Prior to Jesus promise to go and prepare places in the Father's house for us, He said, "Don't let your hearts be troubled."

* Don't let your hearts be troubled

* Comfort each other with these words

* As we wait for the blessed hope

* Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour

I say, continue having faith, continuing in prayer, staying in the word of God, taking advantage of every good work and looking for the imminent appearing the Lord to transform us immortal and glorified.

For those who believe that the church is to go through God's wrath, to suffer the same punishment as the wicked, cannot be watching for the Lord's imminent appearing, because to them God's wrath must take place first. And if God's wrath must take place first, then our hearts would certainly be troubled, there would be no reason to comfort each other with those words and the blessed hope would be no blessed hope.

Having a 'when it happens, it happens' attitude is not watching and anticipating the Lord's coming.
amen one of the best posts I’ve read in my short time here God bless Not in full agreement but great post
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
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ah so it seems we see things very differently , which is ok with me , still
An interesting discussion

Can I ask one more thing ? Do you see this event in revelation


“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:5‬ ‭

as the birth of Christ , and then this event after Satan failed to destroy him ?

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬

do you think revelation is depicting that event in chapter 12 ?

and then this is manifest because Christ is now on the throne at Gods right hand in the kingdom ?

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ:

for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

...And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:10-12, 17‬ ‭

So that the kingdom is now established in heaven but the earth is. NOw under satans temporary authority because christs kingdom being established in heaven , means he has no part in heaven anymore

so that explains why the church is taught this type of doctrine even 1900’uears who ?

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭6:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬


And maybe the dragon falling from heaven came when Christ was seated in heaven ? Or do you think the man child being taken to the throne of God is a different thing than Christ being taken there after his resurrection ?

“And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power,

and coming in the clouds of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭14:62‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you think those things also are out of context ?
Sorry to get back to you so late, but a couple of things came up.
As the Lord calls John to heaven in Revelation 4:1 to be shown events in the hereafter; the travailing woman and male child in Revelation 12 is then not a historical accounting of the Lords birth, but is instead a future event; one that occurs when the two witnesses are testifying, while the dragon, the beast, and the beast's mouth (the false prophet, the Antichrist) are doing their thing.
If you check out Micah 5 you will see the Lord giving up His days on earth (His crucifixion), until the woman in travail has brought forth (Micah 5:3). The woman in travail are all currently double minded Christians, which is pretty much all of us. During the great tribulation/travailing, those who do not fall away will become single minded (the male child). This new entity will do works as those of Christ, with power like Christ (Micah 7:16).

Micah 5:3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.
Micah 7:16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.