The Problem of evil

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
424
83
#41
“Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” Romans 9:20–23 (KJV 1900)

Nice twist. It's not a matter of man being able to dictate to God, but that if God created sin then that means either that there is darkness in His nature or He went against His nature. If either of those is true, He can lie. Which means everything we know about Him is untrustworthy. Now, if He is trustworthy then we can hold Him to be the kind of God He reports Himself to be, which would be a good and loving God and in order to be loving it must be something we recognize as good and loving otherwise the words have no meaning and again God is capable of lying.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
733
113
#42
Nice twist. It's not a matter of man being able to dictate to God, but that if God created sin then that means either that there is darkness in His nature or He went against His nature. If either of those is true, He can lie. Which means everything we know about Him is untrustworthy. Now, if He is trustworthy then we can hold Him to be the kind of God He reports Himself to be, which would be a good and loving God and in order to be loving it must be something we recognize as good and loving otherwise the words have no meaning and again God is capable of lying.
Be careful not to let faulty human reason carve out an idol to worship in God's name.
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
690
265
63
#43
We know "IF" is doubting and we know that Satan comes to kill steal and destroy.

"But God created evil when he created them knowing they were evil. " <---this my brother is not written. Whats written is "you were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.". God had nothing what so ever to do with it. Not sure why but we seem to think or some I should say that angels and everything else God creates are puppets. God can only create life.. All good things come from God.
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
715
125
43
#44
It's both. It's an old question with many answers. I think only one answer. Gordon Clark's does it justice.
I wasn't sure when I read your OP but I had thought I had hit the reply button but came back later and found I didn't, by the time I sent it and refreshed the page in was the second page and not the second reply.

Actually it is a dictum, but yes it revealed or establish a long time ago.

It was just the way you quoted the question in your post, I thought maybe you had might have participated in one of those discussions/debates with someone who believes in scientism (belief that science has exclusive access to truth) since they like to use them as part of their debate tactics against believers in God, particularly those who identify themselves as Christians. However, I can see that by your reconciliation of the existence of God and the existence of evil answers that wouldn't be the case either.

Clark stated that "God's causing a man to sin is not sin. There is no law, superior to God, which forbids him to decree sinful acts. Sin presupposes a law, for sin is lawlessness." Clark explained that "God is above law" because "the laws that God imposes on men do not apply to the divine nature."
Are you sure that isn't the affirmation for the Divine Right of Kings?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
6,071
1,905
113
#45
"How can the existence of God be harmonized with the existence of evil?" If God is all-good, He would want to destroy evil. If God is all-powerful, He is able to destroy evil. But evil still exists. It seems that God cannot be both all-good and all-powerful. However, Christianity teaches that He is both. This is the problem of evil."
Evil entered our world through the angels who rebelled. God did not destroy these rebelling angels. The one we call Satan was the angel of light who was a cherub.

What God did immediately when man disobeyed and ate of this evil food so they knew sin was to give a Son to take on the evil that brought on death, so that through what the Son did for us we escape the evil of death. This was done in God's eternal time, and for thousands of years the blood of animals was used to symbolize this sacrifice, Christ fulfilled this.

When we accept Christ's sacrifice for our sin we become as sinless as Christ, our sins are paid for. We are still human but through our choice we receive much of the joy and abundance that is of goodness. Compare a man who hates with a man who loves.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
733
113
#46
We know "IF" is doubting and we know that Satan comes to kill steal and destroy.

"But God created evil when he created them knowing they were evil. " <---this my brother is not written. Whats written is "you were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.". God had nothing what so ever to do with it. Not sure why but we seem to think or some I should say that angels and everything else God creates are puppets. God can only create life.. All good things come from God.
God is omniscient. = he didn't learn by watching.
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
424
83
#47
Be careful not to let faulty human reason carve out an idol to worship in God's name.
Appreciate the warning, though it seems rather inappropriate. Seems pretty solid Biblically to say God's attributes are absolute and He cannot go against His own nature. Trying to make Him the author of sin to preserve the idea of absolute sovereignty distorts every single one of His attributes into gross caricatures.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
733
113
#48
Appreciate the warning, though it seems rather inappropriate. Seems pretty solid Biblically to say God's attributes are absolute and He cannot go against His own nature. Trying to make Him the author of sin to preserve the idea of absolute sovereignty distorts every single one of His attributes into gross caricatures.
Sin is good if God uses it to contrast his attributes. What is mercy and love without justice and wrath?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
6,071
1,905
113
#49
Sin is good if God uses it to contrast his attributes. What is mercy and love without justice and wrath?
I don't think sin can be labeled as good because God uses it for good. Think of Hitler. God used his sin. There are many books that dame out of that time, Corrie ten Boom comes to mind. The world's attitude toward Jews was changed a great deal, and Jews began returning to the land God gave them, fulfilling prophecy. Yet what Hitler did was sin. The good that came out of it did not white wash it.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
733
113
#50
I don't think sin can be labeled as good because God uses it for good. Think of Hitler. God used his sin. There are many books that dame out of that time, Corrie ten Boom comes to mind. The world's attitude toward Jews was changed a great deal, and Jews began returning to the land God gave them, fulfilling prophecy. Yet what Hitler did was sin. The good that came out of it did not white wash it.
God is not good if he doesn't punish sin. He uses sin to punish sin if you look for it as you read your bible.
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
424
83
#51
God is not good if he doesn't punish sin. He uses sin to punish sin if you look for it as you read your bible.
He allows sinful man to punish sinful man, yes. But He is not the source of the sin, merely doesn't prevent it. Though even when allowing it when man goes beyond the measure due He rectifies that, as in the judgments against the nations that were involved in the exile. But the purpose of those things was so sin could become fully sinful, as in Romans 7. Sin does not become good because God uses it for His purposes, but neither does God using it make Him the author of it.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
733
113
#52
He allows sinful man to punish sinful man, yes. But He is not the source of the sin, merely doesn't prevent it. Though even when allowing it when man goes beyond the measure due He rectifies that, as in the judgments against the nations that were involved in the exile. But the purpose of those things was so sin could become fully sinful, as in Romans 7. Sin does not become good because God uses it for His purposes, but neither does God using it make Him the author of it.
Sin glorifies God when he punishes it.
 
Apr 5, 2020
2,273
449
83
#53
"How can the existence of God be harmonized with the existence of evil?" If God is all-good, He would want to destroy evil. If God is all-powerful, He is able to destroy evil. But evil still exists. It seems that God cannot be both all-good and all-powerful. However, Christianity teaches that He is both. This is the problem of evil."

Evil is necessary. There would be no purpose for having "Free Will" if evil did not exist. Therefore, God uses evil for His own purpose. A couple Verses explain how God allowed a "spirit" to become a lying spirit so a king of Israel would believe it and it would bring his death. This king denied God, did the High Priest wrong, and even sought counsel with soothsayers (this is not Saul btw). God gave this king many chances. Ultimately, God allowed a "lie" (lies are definitely evil) to bring an end to this kings life and rule.
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
424
83
#54
Sin glorifies God when he punishes it.
It's not a matter of glorifying God, it's a matter of the nature of God. Certainly the punishment of the wicked brings God glory, but if God created sin that makes Him wicked and needing punishment. It twists the whole picture into gross caricature and rather than God being immutably good, He becomes like one of us. God's glory doesn't increase or decrease depending on His dealings with creatures, it is as it was in the beginning.
 
Apr 5, 2020
2,273
449
83
#55
1 Kings 22:22
And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

1 Kings 22:23
Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2 Chronicles 18:22
Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.

2 Chronicles 18:21
And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
 
Apr 5, 2020
2,273
449
83
#56
There are times when God has a purpose for "Evil." So then, "Evil" is indeed a necessity of our life.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
733
113
#57
It's not a matter of glorifying God, it's a matter of the nature of God. Certainly the punishment of the wicked brings God glory, but if God created sin that makes Him wicked and needing punishment. It twists the whole picture into gross caricature and rather than God being immutably good, He becomes like one of us. God's glory doesn't increase or decrease depending on His dealings with creatures, it is as it was in the beginning.
That's not the point. God remains unknown apart from sin.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
733
113
#58
Evil is necessary. There would be no purpose for having "Free Will" if evil did not exist. Therefore, God uses evil for His own purpose. A couple Verses explain how God allowed a "spirit" to become a lying spirit so a king of Israel would believe it and it would bring his death. This king denied God, did the High Priest wrong, and even sought counsel with soothsayers (this is not Saul btw). God gave this king many chances. Ultimately, God allowed a "lie" (lies are definitely evil) to bring an end to this kings life and rule.
You need to look deeper into free will and how God controls all free choices through the reasons people base their choices on.
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
424
83
#59
That's not the point. God remains unknown apart from sin.
Really? Because the God I follow is one I know intimately. He came and put sin to death, I became baptized into that death, and now I see Him and He leads me in His way. If you don't know God apart from sin, that's a problem.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
733
113
#60
Really? Because the God I follow is one I know intimately. He came and put sin to death, I became baptized into that death, and now I see Him and He leads me in His way. If you don't know God apart from sin, that's a problem.
Isn't death part of sin?