The Rapture Thief Robs Jesuit Futurism Of The 7 Years Of Tribulation

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Phoneman-777

Active member
Aug 3, 2019
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#1
2 Peter 3:10 KJV says:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Notice that "in the which" part? Peter is saying "in the same day the Lord comes as a thief, the heavens (atmosphere) disintegrate, the Periodic Table flips over, and the Earth and the things therein burn to a crisp. Does it sound like there's gonna be 7 more years of anything going on down here after all that? But, just when I thought I'd heard it all, a Jesuit Futurist stepped up and raised the bar to a whole new level of crazy:

"Oh, Peter's talking about the second time the Lord comes as a thief, at the end of the 7 years tribulation".

Now please...if Jesus was to sneak into town and sneak out with the saints, would there be anyone left behind on planet Earth in the dark about His return 7 years later? Think about it: Every calendar would be marked when all the Christians disappeared. CNN would have a "XXXX days left until the Lord returns" graphic running 24/7. Don King would activate the greatest event promotion of all time. TicketMaster and StubHub would be selling out as fast as they could print tickets. Times Square would be ready to drop the "Jesus Ball" at the final countdown...but that is the extent to which Jesuit Futurists are willing to go in order to cling to Jesuit Futurism. It's just not Biblical.
 
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Prycejosh1987

Active member
Jul 19, 2020
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#2
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."
That is weird, i thought thief in the night referred to the rapture, but the works being burned up and elements melting referred to the second coming. Unless it all refers to the second coming.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
4,491
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#3
Phoneman-777 said:
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."
That is weird, i thought thief in the night referred to the rapture, but the works being burned up and elements melting referred to the second coming. Unless it all refers to the second coming.
The phrase "the day of the Lord" refers to the earthly time-period of judgments [followed by 'blessing'] which immediately FOLLOWS "our Rapture" (i.e. the 7-yr trib)... but "the DOTL" goes on to INCLUDE His Second Coming to the earth AND the entire 1000-yr promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom... so all three aspects are included in the phrase "the day of the Lord"... and this 2Pet3 verse speaks also of the manner of its ARRIVAL point in time ('as a thief IN THE NIGHT'--referring to the ARRIVAL of the trib yrs that will play out upon the earth, involving JUDGMENTs)

Consider also a post I made in the past about the 2Pet3:10-12 passage:

[quoting that post]

Consider the following... notes on the word "DISSOLVED" in 2 Peter 3:10-12 [2x in kjv, 3x in other versions] -

Isaiah 24 -

17 Terror and pit and snare await you,
O dwellers of the earth.
18 Whoever flees the sound of terror
will fall into a pit,
and whoever climbs from the pit
will be caught in a trap
.
For the windows of heaven are open,
and the foundations of the earth are shaken.
19 The earth is utterly broken apart,
the earth is split open ['clean dissolved' in the kjv; H6565 - parar],
the earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth staggers like a drunkard
and sways like a shack.
Earth’s rebellion weighs it down,
and it falls, never to rise again.
21 In that day the LORD will punish [comp Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5]
the host of heaven above
and the kings of the earth below.
22 They will be gathered together
like prisoners in a pit.
They will be confined to a dungeon

and punished after many days. [comp this SECOND "punish" word with the LATER GWTj Rev20:11-15]
23 The moon will be confounded
and the sun will be ashamed;
for the LORD of Hosts will reign
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,
and before His elders with great glory
. [the "GLORIOUS" kingdom, on the earth; the EARTHLY MK age]


[and]

Isaiah 34, in part [be sure to read BOTH CHPTS of chpt 34 AND chpt 35, not just verse 4!] -
Judgment on the Nations


1 Come near, O nations, to listen;
pay attention, O peoples.
Let the earth hear, and all that fills it,
the world and all that springs from it.
2 The LORD is angry with all the nations
and furious with all their armies.
He will devote them to destruction;a
He will give them over to slaughter.
3 Their slain will be left unburied,
and the stench of their corpses will rise;
the mountains will flow with their blood.
4 All the stars of heaven will be dissolved.
The skies will be rolled up like a scroll,
and all their stars will fall [comp the usage of the word "stars" in Dan8:10-12]

like withered leaves from the vine,
like foliage from the fig tree.

[again, see the remainder of these two chapters, and not just verse 4a Peter points out, to get the "whole picture"]


[and]

Psalm 75:3 kjv -
3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.


[and all of Ps75 in the bsb version]
God’s Righteous Judgment

(Romans 2:1-16; Jude 1:3-16)

For the choirmaster: To the tune of “Do not Destroy.” A Psalm of Asaph. A song.
1 We give thanks to You, O God;
we give thanks, for Your Name is near.
The people declare Your wondrous works.
2 “When I choose a time,
I will judge fairly
.
3 When the earth and all its dwellers quake ['are dissolved' in the kjv ^ ; H4127 - mug - to melt--Joshua 2:24 uses this word, translated in the kjv as "DO FAINT" - https://biblehub.com/text/joshua/2-24.htm ],
it is I who bear up its pillars.
Selah
4 I say to the proud, ‘Do not boast,’
and to the wicked, ‘Do not lift up your horn.
5 Do not lift up your horn against heaven
or speak with an outstretched neck.’”
6 For exaltation comes neither from east nor west,
nor out of the desert,
7 but it is God who judges;
He brings down one and exalts another
.
8 For a cup is in the hand of the LORD,
full of foaming wine mixed with spices.
He pours from His cup,
and all the wicked of the earth
drink it down it to the dregs.
9 But I will proclaim Him forever;
I will sing praise to the God of Jacob.
10 “All the horns of the wicked I will cut off,
but the horns of the righteous will be exalted
.”


[and]

2 Peter 3:11-12 - ["dissolved" is used 3x in the ylt version, so in v.10 there also, I've included here]

10 [ylt] and it will come -- the day of the Lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up [*note: see below].
11 [kjv] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 [kjv] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


[*note on v.10's phrase: "shall be burnt up" is the Greek word "G2147 - heurethēsetai"; but the words in the text can be translated "[works] NOT [G3756] [WILL] BE FOUND [G2147]" -- (see quoting BibleHub, below)

"3756 [e]
ouch
[οὐχ]
not
Adv
2147 [e]
heurethēsetai
εὑρεθήσεται .
will be found
V-FIP-3S
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/3-10.htm ]

[end quoting that post]

____________

see also the word translated "elements". :)





But anyway, yeah, "the day of the Lord" is not merely "a singular 24-hr day," but a very long duration of time with MUCH transpiring within it.


["the DOTL" = a period-of-time (not merely a singular 24-hr day) of JUDGMENTs followed by a period-of-time (also not merely a singular 24-hr day) of BLESSINGs... IOW, it INCLUDES: 1) the 7-yr trib unfolding upon the earth, 2) His Second Coming to the earth, 3) His 1000-yr reign on/over the earth--ALL THREE aspects! 2Pet3:10 and 1Th5:2-3 tell of the manner of its ARRIVAL point-in-time (which FOLLOWS "our Rapture")]
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
1,393
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#4
But anyway, yeah, "the day of the Lord" is not merely "a singular 24-hr day," but a very long duration of time with MUCH transpiring within it.
The phrase 'the day of the Lord' refers to two things:

1) a 1000-year span of time
2) the first day of that 1000 years (the day Jesus returns - at His Second Coming)

The following passage tells us this, in light of what we know about the 1000 years from the Bible as a whole. Some of the things mentioned in this passage do not happen until the end of the 1000 years.


2 Peter 3:

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


The old heavens and old earth are not completely destroyed until after the 1000 years - right before the new heavens and new earth are put in place.
 

Corban

Active member
Jun 11, 2020
257
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#5
2 Peter 3:10 KJV says:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Notice that "in the which" part? Peter is saying "in the same day the Lord comes as a thief, the heavens (atmosphere) disintegrate, the Periodic Table flips over, and the Earth and the things therein burn to a crisp. Does it sound like there's gonna be 7 more years of anything going on down here after all that? But, just when I thought I'd heard it all, a Jesuit Futurist stepped up and raised the bar to a whole new level of crazy:

"Oh, Peter's talking about the second time the Lord comes as a thief, at the end of the 7 years tribulation".

Now please...if Jesus was to sneak into town and sneak out with the saints, would there be anyone left behind on planet Earth in the dark about His return 7 years later? Think about it: Every calendar would be marked when all the Christians disappeared. CNN would have a "XXXX days left until the Lord returns" graphic running 24/7. Don King would activate the greatest event promotion of all time. TicketMaster and StubHub would be selling out as fast as they could print tickets. Times Square would be ready to drop the "Jesus Ball" at the final countdown...but that is the extent to which Jesuit Futurists are willing to go in order to cling to Jesuit Futurism. It's just not Biblical.
You have assumed that a solar day is meant. You may do this of course, but 2nd Peter 1:20 forbids it. You have to interpret scripture with scripture. In prophecy, for instance, the Bible says that a day is a year (Nu.14:36; Ezek.4:6). And a day could be a thousand years (Ps.90:4; Hos.6:2; 2nd Pet.3:8). If the day of the Lord is 1,000 years for instance, that could include His return, Armageddon, ruling for 1,000 years, the battle of Magog and the purging of the earth. Adam died "IN the day" he ate of the forbidden tree and he was 930 years old. Which "day" was that? Again, in Hebrews Chapters 3 and 4 a future Sabbath is predicted. And it is defined by the time Israel occupied the Land - and then failed to occupy - a time just under 1,000 years.

So it would seem that 2nd Peter 3:6-10 gives more than one indication of this "day of the Lord". In verse:
6 "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished", it would seem that although all men but eight died, the word "perished" does not mean annihilated. Noah came out of the Ark on the same earth.
7 "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men", the heavens and earth are around as long as the "perdition of the ungodly" - which is forever
8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Here we have a direct indication in the preceding verse that the "DAY of the Lord" is a thousand years.
9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Here, the "longsuffering" is the Church age - already nearly 2,000 years
10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." Here, like verse 6, the earth remains. Just the WORKS are burned up. In Noah's time the same thing happened except with water.

I think the evidence of the Bible is that the "Day of the Lord" is 1,000 years long.
 

Phoneman-777

Active member
Aug 3, 2019
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#6
That is weird, i thought thief in the night referred to the rapture, but the works being burned up and elements melting referred to the second coming. Unless it all refers to the second coming.
The only thing that makes sense is that the Second Coming and the saints being caught up to Jesus in the air all happens AT THE SAME TIME ON THE SAME DAY.

Unfortunately, Christians have been fooled by the Jesuits into accepting a false interpretation of prophecy which says there will be seven years from the "secret rapture" when all Christians disappear when Jesus comes to get them secretly, followed by a seven year period of tribulation, and then the Second Coming.

The Bible says nothing of the kind. It says that when the Lord comes as a "thief in the night", the end of the world as we know it takes place. Rather than accept the truth, some have argued that the Lord will come as a thief in the night TWICE, once in the "secret rapture" and then again seven years later at His Second Coming. I asked them how the flip can the Lord come like a thief seven years later when everyone is going to be counting down to the second from the "first" time He came as a thief until the Second Coming - they will have a Times Square glitter ball waiting to be dropped like at New Years..they will have cameras and everything set up, they will have their calendars marked...NOBODY is going to miss that "second" time He comes as a thief.

However, Paul says the Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout and the dead saints will rise when He does. See? Same day that both events happen.
 

Phoneman-777

Active member
Aug 3, 2019
484
144
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#7
You have assumed that a solar day is meant. You may do this of course, but 2nd Peter 1:20 forbids it. You have to interpret scripture with scripture. In prophecy, for instance, the Bible says that a day is a year (Nu.14:36; Ezek.4:6). And a day could be a thousand years (Ps.90:4; Hos.6:2; 2nd Pet.3:8). If the day of the Lord is 1,000 years for instance, that could include His return, Armageddon, ruling for 1,000 years, the battle of Magog and the purging of the earth. Adam died "IN the day" he ate of the forbidden tree and he was 930 years old. Which "day" was that? Again, in Hebrews Chapters 3 and 4 a future Sabbath is predicted. And it is defined by the time Israel occupied the Land - and then failed to occupy - a time just under 1,000 years.

So it would seem that 2nd Peter 3:6-10 gives more than one indication of this "day of the Lord". In verse:
6 "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished", it would seem that although all men but eight died, the word "perished" does not mean annihilated. Noah came out of the Ark on the same earth.
7 "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men", the heavens and earth are around as long as the "perdition of the ungodly" - which is forever
8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Here we have a direct indication in the preceding verse that the "DAY of the Lord" is a thousand years.
9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Here, the "longsuffering" is the Church age - already nearly 2,000 years
10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." Here, like verse 6, the earth remains. Just the WORKS are burned up. In Noah's time the same thing happened except with water.

I think the evidence of the Bible is that the "Day of the Lord" is 1,000 years long.
The context demands the "day" is a literal "day" and not a thousand years. Do you really think it's going to take a thousand years to resurrect the saints? Are those saints that "are alive and remain" going to be waiting around kicking up dust while God takes a thousand years to get all the dead saints resurrected and transported up to Him in the air before the living saints finally go up after them?

Mary said "I know that my brother will live again in the resurrection in THE LAST DAY", not "the last thousand years". No, the Lord will come as a thief and raise the dead saints and then the living saints at the same time, as the Earth is crumbling around them, until finally nothing is left down here but the hunk of rock...unless it's going to take the Lord a thousand years to get the job done...
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,589
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#8
2 Peter 3:10 KJV says:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Notice that "in the which" part? Peter is saying "in the same day the Lord comes as a thief, the heavens (atmosphere) disintegrate, the Periodic Table flips over, and the Earth and the things therein burn to a crisp. Does it sound like there's gonna be 7 more years of anything going on down here after all that? But, just when I thought I'd heard it all, a Jesuit Futurist stepped up and raised the bar to a whole new level of crazy:

"Oh, Peter's talking about the second time the Lord comes as a thief, at the end of the 7 years tribulation".

Now please...if Jesus was to sneak into town and sneak out with the saints, would there be anyone left behind on planet Earth in the dark about His return 7 years later? Think about it: Every calendar would be marked when all the Christians disappeared. CNN would have a "XXXX days left until the Lord returns" graphic running 24/7. Don King would activate the greatest event promotion of all time. TicketMaster and StubHub would be selling out as fast as they could print tickets. Times Square would be ready to drop the "Jesus Ball" at the final countdown...but that is the extent to which Jesuit Futurists are willing to go in order to cling to Jesuit Futurism. It's just not Biblical.
Do you know the meaning of 'conflation'?
 

Benadam

Active member
Aug 14, 2019
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#9
Since the discussion includes what a day means this may be of interest.

By adding the number of years the patriarchs lived as recorded in Genesis and the age of Noah, and the day of the month mentioned, the amount of weeks, including the creation week, from creation to the first drop of rain of the flood can be counted.

The biblical account is mathematically precise. An atheist mathematician discovered this and tried to use it as proof that the bible isn't from God.

The amount of weeks from creation to the first drop of rain of the flood equals 86,400 weeks. That is the number of seconds in a day.

The mathematician thought the author did that to protect the account from copyist errors.

I told him that the author didn't make-up history to fit a hidden technique to preserve the text. That the text is a written form of an oral tradition passed on from Abraham. I don't believe the author knew the weeks added up that way.

To me it confirmed the text is sacred.
 

Corban

Active member
Jun 11, 2020
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#10
The context demands the "day" is a literal "day" and not a thousand years. Do you really think it's going to take a thousand years to resurrect the saints? Are those saints that "are alive and remain" going to be waiting around kicking up dust while God takes a thousand years to get all the dead saints resurrected and transported up to Him in the air before the living saints finally go up after them?

Mary said "I know that my brother will live again in the resurrection in THE LAST DAY", not "the last thousand years". No, the Lord will come as a thief and raise the dead saints and then the living saints at the same time, as the Earth is crumbling around them, until finally nothing is left down here but the hunk of rock...unless it's going to take the Lord a thousand years to get the job done...
But my theory did not address the time it takes to resurrect millions of saints. It only showed that if the "DAY" of the Lord is 1,000 years, there is time for (i) the resurrection of the saints, (ii) the Millennial reign of Christ, (iii) the rebellion of Magog, and (iv) the purging of the earth. I think you have created a fictitious problem, attributed to me, and then addressed it. Why not go back, see what I really said and address that. Since we may not interpret privately, give your reasons, from scripture, why the "DAY" of the Lord is 12 hours.

You will be hard pressed to do this. And another problem will quickly call that theory into question. In Matthew 13 the "end of the AGE" is given as a harvest (Matt.13:30, 39). If you interpret this Parable using scripture, Leviticus 23 divides the harvest into three different events. (i) The harvest of the Firstfruits, (ii) the General harvest, and (iii) the gleanings. Since this harvest concerns both Tares and Wheat, and three different events, based on ripeness, a "literal day" seems impossible. But maybe I've missed something. I'm open to good, solid, logical exegesis based on scripture with scripture.
 

Phoneman-777

Active member
Aug 3, 2019
484
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#11
Do you know the meaning of 'conflation'?
Yes, but there's no way it's being employed here. When the "day" of the Lord arrives and the dead and living saints ascend to meet Him in the air, I can assure you that all the time needed for Him to raise the dead saints and then the living saints up to Him is just time enough for Him to say, "Come forth!" -- and no way will He need 1,000 years to tear down what only took Him six literal days to erect.

"With a ho heave ho and a lusty yell,​
they swung a beam and a side wall fell.​
I asked the man, Are these men skilled in the kind you'd hire if you had to build?​
He just laughed and said, No indeed, just common labor is all I need.​
I can easily tear down in a DAY or two what skilled men took a year to do."​
 
Mar 21, 2009
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#12
2 Peter 3:10 KJV says:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Notice that "in the which" part? Peter is saying "in the same day the Lord comes as a thief, the heavens (atmosphere) disintegrate, the Periodic Table flips over, and the Earth and the things therein burn to a crisp. Does it sound like there's gonna be 7 more years of anything going on down here after all that? But, just when I thought I'd heard it all, a Jesuit Futurist stepped up and raised the bar to a whole new level of crazy:

"Oh, Peter's talking about the second time the Lord comes as a thief, at the end of the 7 years tribulation".

Now please...if Jesus was to sneak into town and sneak out with the saints, would there be anyone left behind on planet Earth in the dark about His return 7 years later? Think about it: Every calendar would be marked when all the Christians disappeared. CNN would have a "XXXX days left until the Lord returns" graphic running 24/7. Don King would activate the greatest event promotion of all time. TicketMaster and StubHub would be selling out as fast as they could print tickets. Times Square would be ready to drop the "Jesus Ball" at the final countdown...but that is the extent to which Jesuit Futurists are willing to go in order to cling to Jesuit Futurism. It's just not Biblical.
OK Millerite! For someone who loves to call people Jesuits and likes to ridicule their eschatology may I remind you....
The Millerites were members of a religious sect who became famous in 19th century America for fervently believing the world was about to end. The name came from William Miller, an Adventist preacher from New York State who gained an enormous following for asserting, in fiery sermons, that Christ’s return was imminent.

At hundreds of tent meetings around America throughout the summers of the early 1840s, Miller and others convinced as many as one million Americans that Christ would be resurrected between the spring of 1843 and the spring of 1844. People came up with precise dates and prepared to meet their end.

As the various dates passed and the end of the world did not occur, the movement began to be ridiculed in the press. In fact, the name Millerite was originally bestowed upon the sect by detractors before coming into common usage in newspaper reports.

The date of October 22, 1844, was eventually chosen as the day when Christ would return and the faithful would ascend to heaven. There were reports of Millerites selling or giving away their worldly possessions, and even donning white robes to ascend to heaven.

The world did not end, of course. And while some followers of Miller gave up on him, he went on to play a role in the founding of the Seventh Day Adventist Church.

Now that we understand who started the eschatology of SDA we can can call each other names on equal grounds. And for your arguments to discount the Millerite eschatology and distance yourself from it, I have a greater argument for why premillenial theology has its roots in the scripture rather than the Jesuits.

Laying that aside and interpreting the Heavens rolled up like a scroll...

12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

And so we see there IS a progressive nature to these judgements that have a start as it relates to the heavens rolling up like a scroll and yet there continues to be actitivities on earth and a final destruction of the heavens later after more trumpets, and bowls etc..

And I meant no offense by calling you a Millerite. I am trying to make a point.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#13
That is weird, i thought thief in the night referred to the rapture, but the works being burned up and elements melting referred to the second coming. Unless it all refers to the second coming.
The metaphor of " a thief in the night" simply means unexpectedly. It can apply to the coming of Christ at the Rapture (which is imminent and could happen at any time), or it can apply to the onset of "the day of the LORD". But Peter applies it to the supernatural burning up of the atmospheric heaven and the earth, just before the New Heavens and the New Earth are established.
 

massorite

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2015
528
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#14
2 Peter 3:10 KJV says:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Notice that "in the which" part? Peter is saying "in the same day the Lord comes as a thief, the heavens (atmosphere) disintegrate, the Periodic Table flips over, and the Earth and the things therein burn to a crisp. Does it sound like there's gonna be 7 more years of anything going on down here after all that? But, just when I thought I'd heard it all, a Jesuit Futurist stepped up and raised the bar to a whole new level of crazy:

"Oh, Peter's talking about the second time the Lord comes as a thief, at the end of the 7 years tribulation".

Now please...if Jesus was to sneak into town and sneak out with the saints, would there be anyone left behind on planet Earth in the dark about His return 7 years later? Think about it: Every calendar would be marked when all the Christians disappeared. CNN would have a "XXXX days left until the Lord returns" graphic running 24/7. Don King would activate the greatest event promotion of all time. TicketMaster and StubHub would be selling out as fast as they could print tickets. Times Square would be ready to drop the "Jesus Ball" at the final countdown...but that is the extent to which Jesuit Futurists are willing to go in order to cling to Jesuit Futurism. It's just not Biblical.
That is a great point and I have a question as well. If everybody who has died in the name of or died a believer went straight to heaven when we they died. Who would Jesus raise from the grave??? Everybody would already be in heaven so all of the graves would be empty.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
9,457
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#15
2 Peter 3:10 KJV says:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Notice that "in the which" part? Peter is saying "in the same day the Lord comes as a thief, the heavens (atmosphere) disintegrate, the Periodic Table flips over, and the Earth and the things therein burn to a crisp. Does it sound like there's gonna be 7 more years of anything going on down here after all that? But, just when I thought I'd heard it all, a Jesuit Futurist stepped up and raised the bar to a whole new level of crazy:

"Oh, Peter's talking about the second time the Lord comes as a thief, at the end of the 7 years tribulation".

Now please...if Jesus was to sneak into town and sneak out with the saints, would there be anyone left behind on planet Earth in the dark about His return 7 years later? Think about it: Every calendar would be marked when all the Christians disappeared. CNN would have a "XXXX days left until the Lord returns" graphic running 24/7. Don King would activate the greatest event promotion of all time. TicketMaster and StubHub would be selling out as fast as they could print tickets. Times Square would be ready to drop the "Jesus Ball" at the final countdown...but that is the extent to which Jesuit Futurists are willing to go in order to cling to Jesuit Futurism. It's just not Biblical.
And why do you ignore the following:

"Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief.

The times of the seasons that Paul is referring to, is what He just previously spoke of, which is the resurrection of the dead and the changing and catching up of those still alive in Christ. The scripture states that sudden destruction will come upon the world like labor pains of a pregnant woman, which means that the destruction, i.e. the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, will get closer together and more intense as they head towards their conclusion, which is the return of the Lord to the earth to end the age.

The destruction that will come upon them suddenly (the wicked) is what will take place after the church has been gathered, because you brothers (believers) are not in darkness so that this day (God's wrath) should overtake you like a thief, meaning that what Paul just spoke about regarding the dead being resurrected and the living being called up, will take place first. That destruction that comes upon them suddenly also demonstrates the time period of God's wrath after the church has been gathered and not the world and all of its elements melting in fervent.

We also have other scriptures that you conveniently left out, which demonstrate that after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, that there will be a thousand year period where He will rule on this current earth and we with Him. We also have the scripture which states that when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, that the nations will beat their swords into plowshares and and their spears into pruning hooks and will no longer train for war, which infers that the world will continue to go on after the Lord's return. And there are many more examples.

You err because you only rely on the teachings that you have adopted from false teachers and you only utilize partial Biblical information.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
6,980
139
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#16
That is weird, i thought thief in the night referred to the rapture, but the works being burned up and elements melting referred to the second coming. Unless it all refers to the second coming.
This passage referred to the temple being burned down in 70 AD. Josephus records the fulfillment of 2 Peter 3:10:

The flame was also carried a long way, and made an echo, together with the groans of those that were slain; and because this hill was high, and the works at the temple were very great, one would have thought the whole city had been on fire. Nor can one imagine any thing either greater or more terrible than this noise; for there was at once a shout of the Roman legions, who were marching all together, and a sad clamor of the seditious, who were now surrounded with fire and sword.

The temple was the "works" in question. When you see "earth" it often refers to a specific Land, in this case, Israel. The "heavens" was the sky above the temple.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

Earth = Israel
Works = Temple
Heavens = sky seemed to be on fire
Elements = Gold and other elements of the temple
Great Noise = The flames and shouts of the Roman legions and the seditious


The presence of the Lord was there in judgment just as He was 4 times in the OT in the 6th century BC at the destruction of Egypt, Edom, Babylon and Jerusalem. This happened 1,950 years ago. It does NOT foretell some future end of our planet. Christ said He would return in flaming fire vengeance and He did.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
3,413
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#17
That is a great point and I have a question as well. If everybody who has died in the name of or died a believer went straight to heaven when we they died. Who would Jesus raise from the grave??? Everybody would already be in heaven so all of the graves would be empty.
Bodies are resurrected (made new). At the resurrection. When death is finally swallowed up in victory.
Your spirit man goes to heaven when your body dies, you don't need a resurrected body for that.
1 Corinthians chapter 15 explains in detail.

Rev 6:9 gives us a view of martyrs that have died and dwell in heaven under the alter.
They are asking for vengeance but are told they must wait until the rest of their brothers are martyred.
The bodies aren't given until the resurrection day. (Or "rapture" if you are still physically living at the time)
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
6,980
139
63
#18
Bodies are resurrected (made new). At the resurrection. When death is finally swallowed up in victory.
Your spirit man goes to heaven when your body dies, you don't need a resurrected body for that.
1 Corinthians chapter 15 explains in detail.

Rev 6:9 gives us a view of martyrs that have died and dwell in heaven under the alter.
They are asking for vengeance but are told they must wait until the rest of their brothers are martyred.
The bodies aren't given until the resurrection day. (Or "rapture" if you are still physically living at the time)
Are you saying that when we die we don't have our spiritual bodies right away? No eyes to see, ears to hear, mouth to talk, hands to touch, legs to walk? Seems to me from the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich man that they could see, talk, feel pain and heat, etc.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
10,517
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#19
Bodies are resurrected (made new). At the resurrection. When death is finally swallowed up in victory.
Your spirit man goes to heaven when your body dies, you don't need a resurrected body for that.
1 Corinthians chapter 15 explains in detail.

Rev 6:9 gives us a view of martyrs that have died and dwell in heaven under the alter.
They are asking for vengeance but are told they must wait until the rest of their brothers are martyred.
The bodies aren't given until the resurrection day. (Or "rapture" if you are still physically living at the time)
Yes, the spirit, which is life to your body, returns to the Lord the giver of life, the body dies, and the soul which is the inner man goes to be with the Lord. Souls can speak, feel, think, etc...

Those souls under the alter were also given robes to wear.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
3,413
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#20
Are you saying that when we die we don't have our spiritual bodies right away? No eyes to see, ears to hear, mouth to talk, hands to touch, legs to walk? Seems to me from the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich man that they could see, talk, feel pain and heat, etc.
No
I said the opposite.