THE RAPTURE

[PlainWord]

All joking aside, dispensationalists have a hard time proving that Ezekiel's temple is to be a future Millennial temple because of the animal sacrifices and other Levitical rituals found in the passage. The dispensationalist answer is that the millennial sacrifices will not be intended to atone for sins but will rather commemorate the death of Christ as a past event. This idea fails because Christ told us to use bread and wine for that purpose (1 Cor. 11:24–26).

Quasar's literal interpretation of a Millennial temple violates many other scriptures and new teachings of the NT such as the change in how we are to worship found in John 4:21–24 and Acts 7:48–50. It also violates the change in priesthood found in Heb. 7:12. In 1 Pet. 2:5 Jesus is now the High Priest and Jesus was from the Tribe of Judah, not Levi. In the "Millennium" this rule for priesthood cannot be reverted back as Ps. 110:4; Heb. 7:17, 21 tells us Christ is said to be “a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.”

The difficulties of the dispensational interpretation to have a literal millennial temple are insurmountable. Christ’s new order (which, unlike the old order, is permanent), the temple, priesthood, and sacrifices are likewise spiritual (1 Pet. 2:5):

[SUP]5 [/SUP]you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

So what are we left with? The key passage comes from Eze 43:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“Son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the pattern. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And if they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the temple and its arrangement, its exits and its entrances, its entire design and all its ordinances, all its forms and all its laws. Write it down in their sight, so that they may keep its whole design and all its ordinances, and perform them.

Ezekiel had his vision 13 years into the Babylonian captivity. I believe he was shown a vision of what their temple should be like once their captivity was over. But the Jews did not obey in captivity and many had no interest in returning to Israel when they were finally allowed to go home. Because of this, they didn't get the temple God had planned for them (as shown to Ezekiel) but rather a temple much smaller and less beautiful. The passage is like a carrot approach. Behave and get the carrot. That is what the above passage means to me.

If they are ashamed and repent, they can have this beautiful temple and here's the pattern for it.

This is the only explanation that really makes sense although the spiritual aspect is intriguing also. You see Quasar, you have to allow the Word to speak to you and let it interpret itself. Stop literalizing everything. Strike the right balance. Otherwise we are going to have Christ bouncing around like a pinball between heaven and earth, people coming out of the ground over and over, flying back and forth between heaven and earth and now temples springing up everywhere.

 

[Gr8grace]

This idea fails because Christ told us to use bread and wine for that purpose (1 Cor. 11:24–26).

I didn't realize that this is what the Jews are doing. They have stopped their sacrifices and have reverted to bread and wine?

 

[Quasar92]

By PlainWord:

I shouldn't be surprised. You invent multiple returns of Christ and multiple resurrections. We may as well have multiple future temples too.

You are so funny!! The word "temple" doesn't exist in Eze 40. The word is "house" and I proved it!! The measurements taken in Eze 40 were not of the temple, but of the wall to the city!! The gates you cite are in the wall, not the temple. I really feel bad for you.

You have proven nothing, except what you invent! Get this, there will be two More temples built in Jerusalem, as the Scriptures clearly reveal. No matter how hard you try to sweep it under the carpet with your allegorical fiction!

This is enough for tonight to once again, refute the allegorical fiction you pour out! Review Ez.40:5 in the following:

Ez.40:5 "I saw a wall completely surrounding the temple area. The length of the measuring rod in the man’s hand was six long cubits,[a] each of which was a cubit and a handbreadth. He measured the wall; it was one measuring rod thick and one rod high."

FYI, the dimensions of this temple are different than any of the stone building temples of God, Israel
has ever had. Furthermore, Zech.6:12-13 reveals it will be built by Jesus, who clearly has not built any temple in Jerusalem previously.


Quasar92

 

[miknik5]

I will be happy to go back further. How far back to you wish to go?

[SUP]26 [/SUP]And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come (Titus and his Roman troops) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (Temple); and the end thereof shall be with a flood (of solders), and unto the end of the war (of AD 67-73) desolations are determined (Jews will scatter).

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he (Christ) shall confirm the covenant (of His blood) with many (the world) for one week: and in the midst of the week (3.5 years into His ministry) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (by becoming the sacrifice for all), and for the overspreading of abominations (many sins of the Jews) he (Christ) shall make it (the Temple) desolate, even until the consummation (the consuming fire of God's wrath), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (those not saved).

Not far enough

 

[miknik5]

The fact of the matter is, it doesn't matter what we believe, but rather, what the Scriptures clearly teach us. We need to seek what they are telling us, and to dispose of preconceived ideas and false teachings that contradict them, as we are taught from what has been posted in 501 and 502, on page 26.


Quasar92

It matters if we believe and trust and hope and wait for HIM and don't "go out"
yes it matters very much

 

[miknik5]

All joking aside, dispensationalists have a hard time proving that Ezekiel's temple is to be a future Millennial temple because of the animal sacrifices and other Levitical rituals found in the passage. The dispensationalist answer is that the millennial sacrifices will not be intended to atone for sins but will rather commemorate the death of Christ as a past event. This idea fails because Christ told us to use bread and wine for that purpose (1 Cor. 11:24–26).

Quasar's literal interpretation of a Millennial temple violates many other scriptures and new teachings of the NT such as the change in how we are to worship found in John 4:21–24 and Acts 7:48–50. It also violates the change in priesthood found in Heb. 7:12. In 1 Pet. 2:5 Jesus is now the High Priest and Jesus was from the Tribe of Judah, not Levi. In the "Millennium" this rule for priesthood cannot be reverted back as Ps. 110:4; Heb. 7:17, 21 tells us Christ is said to be “a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.”

The difficulties of the dispensational interpretation to have a literal millennial temple are insurmountable. Christ’s new order (which, unlike the old order, is permanent), the temple, priesthood, and sacrifices are likewise spiritual (1 Pet. 2:5):

[SUP]5 [/SUP]you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

So what are we left with? The key passage comes from Eze 43:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“Son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the pattern. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And if they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the temple and its arrangement, its exits and its entrances, its entire design and all its ordinances, all its forms and all its laws. Write it down in their sight, so that they may keep its whole design and all its ordinances, and perform them.

Ezekiel had his vision 13 years into the Babylonian captivity. I believe he was shown a vision of what their temple should be like once their captivity was over. But the Jews did not obey in captivity and many had no interest in returning to Israel when they were finally allowed to go home. Because of this, they didn't get the temple God had planned for them (as shown to Ezekiel) but rather a temple much smaller and less beautiful. The passage is like a carrot approach. Behave and get the carrot. That is what the above passage means to me.

If they are ashamed and repent, they can have this beautiful temple and here's the pattern for it.

This is the only explanation that really makes sense although the spiritual aspect is intriguing also. You see Quasar, you have to allow the Word to speak to you and let it interpret itself. Stop literalizing everything. Strike the right balance. Otherwise we are going to have Christ bouncing around like a pinball between heaven and earth, people coming out of the ground over and over, flying back and forth between heaven and earth and now temples springing up everywhere.

Your first paragraph and insight isn't a goodt option. You are suggesting that dispensationalists (who believe in JESUS?) are "allowing" of sacrifices as a commemoration of CHRIST? This already is an abomination OF Abominations!

 

[Ahwatukee]

And he (Christ) shall confirm the covenant (of His blood) with many (the world) for one week: and in the midst of the week (3.5 years into His ministry) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (by becoming the sacrifice for all), and for the overspreading of abominations (many sins of the Jews) he (Christ) shall make it (the Temple) desolate, even until the consummation (the consuming fire of God's wrath), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (those not saved).

Every bit of the above is misapplied.

And he (Christ) shall confirm the covenant (of His blood) with many (the world) for one week:

Christ's covenant in His blood was not only for one week of years but throughout the entire church period. And the "many," which is implied by you, is not referring to the world, but is in reference to those who of whom the sacrifice and offerings where ceased, which would be Israel.

and for the overspreading of abominations

Jesus clarified the above in Mt.24:15 as the abomination that causes desolation which will be set up in the holy place within the temple. You reject that because Jesus could not be the One who sets up the abomination and so you distort it in order to fit your belief.

Everything that you highlighted in red is just misapplied to fit your belief.

 

[miknik5]

Revelation 11 hardly contains a prediction that a third man-made temple will be built in Jerusalem prior to the return of Christ. It says none of that. There is no other passage which contains a clear prediction of a third temple being built either.

Rev 11 simply mentions "the temple of God," correct. But in what context? Do we know what year John was told to measure the temple? By the time John was taken to heaven, there was no temple on earth. The Book of Revelation is highly figurative. It is written like a big picture or image. It is more figurative than literal. Just look at exactly John was told to measure:

1. the temple of God
2. the Alter
3. those worshiping at the Alter

Do you measure people? The passage shows a comparison, "those worshiping" and "those outside in the courtyard, the Gentiles," right? In other words, those worshiping or "SAVED" and those "UNSAVED," those who "BELIEVE IN GOD" and those "WHO DON'T." This could be the point.

If John were to measure anytime from AD 70 to today, he would find no temple to measure and would find plenty of Gentiles (Muslims) treading the city. We are not given any of the measurements so maybe John wasn't able to measure? We have other passages in Revelation where John sees souls under the alter, in the Temple of God which is clearly in heaven. You see, there are plenty of alternative meanings.

Dan 9:27 makes clear that the temple will remain desolate (after Titus destroys it) until the wrath. Please avoid jumping to conclusions especially using Revelation to trump other clearer passages.

O am becoming more and more confused by the many back and forth posts and can't pinpoint what you believe regarding the sacrifices

i was pretty sure you were shocked when I said sacrifices would be reinstated. And yet you charge to dispensationakisys that they are"allowing" of sacrifices as some sort of commemoration?

 

[miknik5]

Every bit of the above is misapplied.



Christ's covenant in His blood was not only for one week of years but throughout the entire church period. And the "many," which is implied by you, is not referring to the world, but is in reference to those who of whom the sacrifice and offerings where ceased, which would be Israel.



Jesus clarified the above in Mt.24:15 as the abomination that causes desolation which will be set up in the holy place within the temple. You reject that because Jesus could not be the One who sets up the abomination and so you distort it in order to fit your belief.

Everything that you highlighted in red is just misapplied to fit your belief.

Thank you for reading his post! I didn't. I am so tired of reading the back and forth confusion that I have stopped reading

thank you for catching this

it is very misapplied!

 

[miknik5]

Daniel 9 :24 forward read in context :
After Daniel prays this is the response he receives from Gabriel

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[miknik5]

During the seven week period Messiah will be "cut off". That is NOT discussing Christ's crucifixion but His being "taken out of the way as per (2 Thessalonians 2). This "21 days while HE is detained"
when HE is cut off (but not for HKMSELF)who do you think HE is cut off for but HIS CHURCH

 

[miknik5]

This thread was about the Rapture
My view of the Rapture is the same as Tanakh

but if you want a clearer time reference for when the Raprure will happen, I believe it is found in this very verse for HE PROMISED that HE would not leave us as orphans. So if HE is taken out of the way and detained "21 days" during this seven year part of the tribulation period , where then is HIS CHURCH?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Thank you for reading his post! I didn't. I am so tired of reading the back and forth confusion that I have stopped reading

thank you for catching this

it is very misapplied!

No problem! My pleasure! We have to contend for the truth when we see/hear false teachings. I have to force myself to do so, because I am grieved to read his posts. And that because they are so distorted and misapplied. This is a guy who believes that the great tribulation is only 45 days long. And I know where he is getting this information from. In Dan.12:11-12, 1,290 days and 1335 days are referred to. The 1,290 days being 30 days beyond the 1,260 days referred to in Revelation and the 1335 days being 45 days beyond the 1,290 days. It is this last 45 days that he is applying the great tribulation to. However, Jesus makes it very clear that the the great tribulation begins from the setting up of the abomination, which we know is in the middle of the seven years and continues to the end of that last 3 1/2 years when he returns to the earth to end the age. The 30 days and 45 days take place after Christ has returned and will most likely have to do with the separation of the sheep and the goats and any other events that take place during the 45 days. But in no way is the great tribulation restricted to only being 45 days in length.

The entire seven years is the tribulation period with the last 3 1/2 years referred to as the great tribulation. The reason that it is called that, is because the middle of the seven is when the abomination is set up in the holy place within the temple and it is also when the beast stands in the temple proclaiming himself to be God. It is during this 3 1/2 years that the beast makes war with the saints and conquers them. The middle of the seven is also the same time when the woman/Israel, flees out into the desert and is cared for by God for 1,260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years.

 

[popeye]

O am becoming more and more confused by the many back and forth posts and can't pinpoint what you believe regarding the sacrifices

i was pretty sure you were shocked when I said sacrifices would be reinstated. And yet you charge to dispensationakisys that they are"allowing" of sacrifices as some sort of commemoration?

Pw believes the rapture is after the millennium.

To engage him,you mainly post verses,because he has changed a few things,and according to him,he is not connected to the body of Christ,but has a private interpretation as does quasar.

That is why I ask them for a group or link.

Lone ranger format usually results in error.

Neither quasar or pw have ever,to my knowledge posted a link to a like minded fellowship.
I think that tells you all you need to know.
2dangerous entities

 

[PlainWord]

You have proven nothing, except what you invent! Get this, there will be two More temples built in Jerusalem, as the Scriptures clearly reveal. No matter how hard you try to sweep it under the carpet with your allegorical fiction!

This is enough for tonight to once again, refute the allegorical fiction you pour out! Review Ez.40:5 in the following:

Ez.40:5 "I saw a wall completely surrounding the temple area. The length of the measuring rod in the man’s hand was six long cubits,[a] each of which was a cubit and a handbreadth. He measured the wall; it was one measuring rod thick and one rod high."

FYI, the dimensions of this temple are different than any of the stone building temples of God, Israel
has ever had. Furthermore, Zech.6:12-13 reveals it will be built by Jesus, who clearly has not built any temple in Jerusalem previously.


Quasar92

Hopelessly lost in literalism. Poor Nicodemus. What does it mean to be born again, do we enter our mother's wombs again? My dear old friend, you never had eyes to see the many spiritual truths such as the spiritual temple Christ would build (and has built) as taught here:

“This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and to build it in three days.’”

“Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH! From His place He shall branch out, And He shall build the temple of the Lord...

[SUP]5 [/SUP]you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

The above message is completely lost on our dear Nicodemus.

The key passage doesn't come from Eze 40. It comes from Eze 43 as I pointed out. Did you happen to read it?

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“Son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the pattern. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And if they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the temple and its arrangement, its exits and its entrances, its entire design and all its ordinances, all its forms and all its laws. Write it down in their sight, so that they may keep its whole design and all its ordinances, and perform them.

The vision never happened, and never will happen. The vision would be like telling your son, "If you clean your room, I will take you to the ball game." They never cleaned their room. I don't know why I just used symbolism on you, you never understand the meanings of symbolic speech.

 

[popeye]

No problem! My pleasure! We have to contend for the truth when we see/hear false teachings. I have to force myself to do so, because I am grieved to read his posts. And that because they are so distorted and misapplied. This is a guy who believes that the great tribulation is only 45 days long. And I know where he is getting this information from. In Dan.12:11-12, 1,290 days and 1335 days are referred to. The 1,290 days being 30 days beyond the 1,260 days referred to in Revelation and the 1335 days being 45 days beyond the 1,290 days. It is this last 45 days that he is applying the great tribulation to. However, Jesus makes it very clear that the the great tribulation begins from the setting up of the abomination, which we know is in the middle of the seven years and continues to the end of that last 3 1/2 years when he returns to the earth to end the age. The 30 days and 45 days take place after Christ has returned and will most likely have to do with the separation of the sheep and the goats and any other events that take place during the 45 days. But in no way is the great tribulation restricted to only being 45 days in length.

The entire seven years is the tribulation period with the last 3 1/2 years referred to as the great tribulation. The reason that it is called that, is because the middle of the seven is when the abomination is set up in the holy place within the temple and it is also when the beast stands in the temple proclaiming himself to be God. It is during this 3 1/2 years that the beast makes war with the saints and conquers them. The middle of the seven is also the same time when the woman/Israel, flees out into the desert and is cared for by God for 1,260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years.

I see the entire 7 yr period as the GT.

A billion saints beheaded is a GT ,and that happens right away.

In fact,the only group that needs a wrath vs trib,or GT vs trib is mid trib rapture adherents.

It would be like making WW II"a" and "b" with the bulk of those discussing it not knowing there is a general concept of just saying WW II.

Tedious.

But we can work around it Lol.

Not really that big a deal

 

[miknik5]

Hopelessly lost in literalism. Poor Nicodemus. What does it mean to be born again, do we enter our mother's wombs again? My dear old friend, you never had eyes to see the many spiritual truths such as the spiritual temple Christ would build (and has built) as taught here:

“This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and to build it in three days.’”

“Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH! From His place He shall branch out, And He shall build the temple of the Lord...

[SUP]5 [/SUP]you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

The above message is completely lost on our dear Nicodemus.

The key passage doesn't come from Eze 40. It comes from Eze 43 as I pointed out. Did you happen to read it?

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“Son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the pattern. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And if they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the temple and its arrangement, its exits and its entrances, its entire design and all its ordinances, all its forms and all its laws. Write it down in their sight, so that they may keep its whole design and all its ordinances, and perform them.

The vision never happened, and never will happen. The vision would be like telling your son, "If you clean your room, I will take you to the ball game." They never cleaned their room. I don't know why I just used symbolism on you, you never understand the meanings of symbolic speech.

I think differently sir

i do NOT at all think that the MESSAGE was lost to Nicodemus at all. In fact I think that he eventually got THE MESSAGE and understood that receiving THE MESSAGE and THE MESSENGER was more than sufficient

just like Simeon the prophet who said Lord,my eyes have seen your SALVATION...you may dismiss your servant in peace

 

[PlainWord]

I didn't realize that this is what the Jews are doing. They have stopped their sacrifices and have reverted to bread and wine?

Once the Jews killed their Messiah, God's Son, he gave them 40 years to repent and listen to his prophets, the disciples. This is the longsuffering nature of God. Although God knows everything and knew they would not repent nor open their eyes even after Christ rose again and after Pentecost and the showing of miracles and signs done on earth in the sight of men by the apostles, He still gave them time.

Rather than repenting and accepting His Son they put several of His apostles to death too in Jerusalem and other places. In Rome he punished them with Nero (as He almost always uses a foreign power to punish His people). By AD 70 all of the original 12 (except John) were dead, including Paul. Not all were martyred by the Jews but many were. It was now time to really punish them so God allowed Rome to come in and destroy their temple and city and to scatter them for 1900 years.

Once the veil was split, God had no further use for the Temple. The sacrifices and rituals were meaningless to Him. He gave His Son to be their eternal sacrifice but they rejected him and instead continued to offer bulls and rams.

DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT IF THE JEWS BUILT A NEW TEMPLE AND STARTED SACRIFICING ANIMALS AGAIN AFTER ALL THIS TIME THAT GOD WOULD REFER TO THE PLACE AS: THE TEMPLE OF GOD??????? DO YOU REALLY THINK AFTER 1,946 YEARS THAT GOD IS GOING TO ALLOW THEM ANOTHER TEMPLE TO WORSHIP HIM IN????? If you think this, you don't know the nature of our God very well.

 

[PlainWord]

I think differently sir

i do NOT at all think that the MESSAGE was lost to Nicodemus at all. In fact I think that he eventually got THE MESSAGE and understood that receiving THE MESSAGE and THE MESSENGER was more than sufficient

just like Simeon the prophet who said Lord,my eyes have seen your SALVATION...you may dismiss your servant in peace

Nicodemus may have eventually understood but Quasar never will. He does not understand the concept of the spiritual temple of God that we Christians are part of and that Christ is our Chief Cornerstone. He doesn't realize after being shown passage after passage that the spiritual temple is the one that Christ was to build as foretold by Zechariah 6. Zechariah did not skip over the spiritual temple to discuss a "millennial temple" whose building was never prophesied.

 

[PlainWord]

Pw believes the rapture is after the millennium.

To engage him,you mainly post verses,because he has changed a few things,and according to him,he is not connected to the body of Christ,but has a private interpretation as does quasar.

That is why I ask them for a group or link.

Lone ranger format usually results in error.

Neither quasar or pw have ever,to my knowledge posted a link to a like minded fellowship.
I think that tells you all you need to know.
2dangerous entities

Not exactly. PW believes there is one resurrection (of both just and unjust), of which the rapture is a part, and that it occurs on the last day. The attack on Israel is completely unrelated to the rapture and resurrection other than the GT must go first otherwise those saved who die during the GT will have no way to come back to receive their spiritual bodies.

Here's a link to my Eze 40-47 temple view. He believes EXACTLY as I do.

Making Sense of Ezekiel’s Temple Vision - Christian Research Institute