The rapture

[starfield]

Also, the scripture says that there were already in Paul's time, MANY ANTICHRISTS. An antichrist is a spirit that goes against Christ or tries to put itself in the place of Christ.

This is true.

NOBODY HERE HAS BEEN SAVED. "He that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved" "And they shall deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you; and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

That passage is not referring to the great tribulation period (Jacob’s trouble). Jesus is saying that if we presently endure to the end (when He comes to rapture the believers), we will be saved from the wrath of the great tribulation. To endure, we must persevere, follow the footsteps of Christ, and do not conform to the world then we will be saved from the wrath (John 15:1-6, Mark 13:13).

Simple as that, Christ came to tell us that we will go through diverse tests and temptations and tribulations because we hold to his testimony and walk his walk.

Yes, and this is happening right now. Believers are facing temptations but only those that endure will be saved from the great tribulation.

Pre-trib is for those who think Christ's walk is easy and don't think that Christ would let them go through any kind of trouble. Post-trib is for those who understand that the walk of Christ is that of sacrifice and that we will go through many trials and tribulations and will even lose family members and loved ones for his name's sake; they also know that they will be hated and persecuted for Christ's name, but even through all this they will FIGHT to KEEP the COMMANDMENTS and hold true to the testimony of Christ. Shalom

The pre-tribulation view is the most biblically-based interpretation of the rapture; it is not a selfish Christian's view (Rev 3:10). Christ promised that believers will not suffer the wrath, so He will not leave them on earth (1 Thess 5:9-11).

 

[BLU]

I do not know if anyone here has heard of Harold Camping of familyradio.com. Anyway, He teaches that there is neither pre or post millenium period before or after the tribulation, for the verse in Mt says that immediately after the trib the sun will not, etc, and that is the day of judgment. So that leaves out post, and there is no pre milleniium either. As he teaches, we are in the tribulation period and have been since 1988, and it is for 23 years culminating at being caught up on 5/21/2011. The church age ended that year and was put under judgement, and Rev 18 and Mt 24, both warns us to leave the church. Then he teaches that from 5/21-2011-10/21/2011 there will be the last 5 months on earth without any more salvation to those who got left behind. Is his teaching believable?

 

[BLU]

No you are incorrect, Paul uses the Greek word Ioudaios which means "Judean" as in the sense of a geographical location.

Paul is saying that the true Judean is not outwardly Judean and does not call himself "Judean" (Jew), but is inwardly one of circumcised heart - which is Christian, as all true decendants of the House of Judah and the House of Israel were saved and became Christian as per Hebrews 8:8-12.

The word "Jew" is defined by the Jewish Encyclopedia to mean - 'anyone whose mother is a Jew or has converted to Judaism.'

My mother is not a Jew and I am not a Jewish convert. Therefore I cannot be a "Jew" considering also that that word is only 200 years old and the Israelites were patriachal.

Ioudaios is a derogatory term for example Romans 2:17 "Behold thou art called a jew and rest in the law makest thou boast of God."

The word "Judean" is used in a derogatory manner by Paul, it's name-calling really, same with Yehuwdiy which is the Chaldee word, because the Yehuwdiy spoke Chaldee, the House of Judah did not speak Chaldee, that is a Babylonian language, ancient Babylonian.

(Gal 3:29) And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[MahogonySnail]

who is Harold Camping and what qualifications does he have in eschatology?

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

(Gal 3:29) And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Christians at the time Paul was writing to those in Galatia were literally Abraham's seed, the Celtic tribes who settled in Galatia around the 3rd Century B.C. can be traced back to one of the tribes that crossed over the Caucases Mountains approx 650 B.C. after the Assyrian captivity. Also the Greeks such as the Spartans considered Abraham to be their father, the Trojans Kings it is known were decendants from the House of Judah, most of the royal houses of Europe trace their ancestry back to Israel or Abraham or Eber and Shem, the Anglo Saxon kings could trace their line all the way back to Adam!

 

[MahogonySnail]

Sounds like you've fallen for the British-Israelism heresies or one of the many variants Cup of Ruin. Nice stories, but unproven and frankly wrong in many respects.

You believe in British-Israelism or one of their variants. They believe that Jews and Israelites are different, and you must to make your doctrines work out.

FYI, the celts can be traced back far earlier than when the Assyrian captivity took place!
Celts come from a central asian people. Their connection in any way to Israel , since the time of Abraham onwards, is myth.

Your posts have often had aryan supremecy racist overtones against Jews now I know why.

The funny thing is that the verse before the one which you mangle in interpretation (Gal 3:29), clearly says in Christ there is no such racial distinctions:

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

The funny thing is that the verse before the one which you mangle in interpretation (Gal 3:29), clearly says in Christ there is no such racial distinctions:

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Oh really, am I now androgynous? Did somehow I change my racial heritage? Did I change my position in society? NO! I don't think you understand what Paul is saying, God created male and female, I am still male, being a Christian dosen't make me a non-male!

OK, now 'Snail, notice how Paul uses the words male and female and not man and woman, he is comparing what are essentially opposites, but he does not mean literally - he then would have said man and woman or husband and wife as most of the people he was talking to would have been married, no, he says male and female as a distinction, the same as there is distinction and seperation between a Judean and a Hellen and a master and a slave! You have to understand that this is one of the very first if not the first appearence of what we know today as 'equality', Christianity introduces many revolutionary idea's and one of them was greater tolerance and equality, and as Paul and the Apostles were getting the idea of this 'new creation' this new idea that Christ was bringing into the world, they were constantly having to break down old barriers, old die hard traditions and divisions.

No one could honestly suggest that Paul is saying that when you become a Christian you will no longer be a man, and a woman will no longer be a woman, I mean, that is ridiculous, understand the refrain in use, the repitition in the preaching to enhance the message, but keep in mind the overall conclusion which is; "if ye be Christ's?"

OK how do you come together before Christ do you come before Him as a representation of your race, your status in society, your gender??? I mean obviously none of that changes, we are brothers and sisters, husbands and wives, no one is suggesting that we all become androgynous lookalike robots, that's ridiculous, I mean early Christians were trying to get this revolutionary idea of egalitarianism and equality, fairness, and it all had to do with the concept of bringing in a new creation in Christ, but in spiritual essence, but it has a bearing on society and it did, Christianity certainly broke down alot of barriers, but the aim was not the total conformity and unification of the sex's and races and society positions so that everybody is literally exactly the same!

Do you know what I mean 'Snail?

 

[MahogonySnail]

Cup I just think it is ironic or at least a little bit contradictary for you to be interpreting Gal 3:29 with such comments as you made about various ancient tribes, when the previous verse 28 makes a point about race not being that important in God's view.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Cup I just think it is ironic or at least a little bit contradictary for you to be interpreting Gal 3:29 with such comments as you made about various ancient tribes, when the previous verse 28 makes a point about race not being that important in God's view.

"Ye be Christ's" and "ye be Abraham's seed"

This is to the Celts of Galatia, whom were indeed Abraham's literal seed, as I have explained, Jesus said "I come only for the lost sheep of Israel", well that is where His Apostles went, as in Judah and Benjiman was the line of Jesus and the Apostles, the 10 tribes were the dispersed, or they used to say even the "twelve tribes scattered abroad, greetings" because lines from the house of Judah had migrated many times, actually the Celtic Church started by Joseph of Arimathea was the first Christian Church and that was in present day Ireland, where Joseph is still buried, his tomb stone is there!

There is nothing contradictory with what I am saying, Has not God divided the areas of the earth for all the nations and people so that they would find God in their own time, who set the boundries, who has designated the nations? Does it not say that he made all races of the same clay he made Adam? (omit 'blood' in the KJV, should read 'He made of the one').....

 

[Lindqvist]

I shouldn't go back into this argument the celtic church was the first? There's been several findings older than that. Only recently (june 2008) they found a church during the excavation of the old St: Gerorgeous Church in Rihab (Jordania) which predates any known church by 150 years.

 

[BLU]

Christians at the time Paul was writing to those in Galatia were literally Abraham's seed, the Celtic tribes who settled in Galatia around the 3rd Century B.C. can be traced back to one of the tribes that crossed over the Caucases Mountains approx 650 B.C. after the Assyrian captivity. Also the Greeks such as the Spartans considered Abraham to be their father, the Trojans Kings it is known were decendants from the House of Judah, most of the royal houses of Europe trace their ancestry back to Israel or Abraham or Eber and Shem, the Anglo Saxon kings could trace their line all the way back to Adam!

(Heb 2:16) For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham.
(Gal 3:29) And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

I shouldn't go back into this argument the celtic church was the first? There's been several findings older than that. Only recently (june 2008) they found a church during the excavation of the old St: Gerorgeous Church in Rihab (Jordania) which predates any known church by 150 years.

Well Joseph of Arimathaea started preaching with the Apostle Phillip, he was in Gaul, I believe when an Angel ordered him to go to go to the Isle of Avalon with the Holy Grail that he had in his posession, this was in approximately 36 AD, Joseph and his companions delivered the Gospel ti the British Isles and converted the Pagan King of the Isle of the Glassy Waters'...Joseph's companions on that mission after he left Phillip were - Mary and Lazarus plus nine others. It is documented that the first church built upon land was in Glastonbury, 160 years before Rome confessed!

 

[Lindqvist]

Well Joseph of Arimathaea started preaching with the Apostle Phillip, he was in Gaul, I believe when an Angel ordered him to go to go to the Isle of Avalon with the Holy Grail that he had in his posession, this was in approximately 36 AD, Joseph and his companions delivered the Gospel ti the British Isles and converted the Pagan King of the Isle of the Glassy Waters'...Joseph's companions on that mission after he left Phillip were - Mary and Lazarus plus nine others. It is documented that the first church built upon land was in Glastonbury, 160 years before Rome confessed!

"Today, Glastonbury Abbey presents itself as "traditionally the oldest above-ground Christian church in the World," which according to the legend was built at Joseph's behest to house the Holy Grail, 65 or so years after the death of Jesus. The legend also says that earlier Joseph had visited Glastonbury along with Jesus as a child. The legend probably was encouraged in the mediaeval period when religious relics and pilgrimages were profitable business for abbeys. It has been suggested that William Blake believed in this legend and wrote the poem that became the words to the patriotic English song, 'Jerusalem' (see And did those feet in ancient time)."

Traditionally as in according to told traditions. This is in no way a fact. This is mere myth and legend.

"A community of monks were already established at Glastonbury when King Ine of Wessex enriched their endowment. He is said to have directed that a stone church be built in 712,[2]"

This is further proven by the fact that the Church found in Jordan is 150 years older than any previous church making it by your logic built almost one hundred years before the birth of christ.

Cup-of-Ruin: your interpetations and so called facts are nothing more than nationalsocialistic twists on the bible. Trying to make Jesus into a aryan figure.

 

[Lindqvist]

"The Saxons, who had been converted to Christianity, conquered the ancient county of Somerset in the 7th Century. Their King was Ine of Wessex, who was widely regarded as one of the most important figures in the history of the Abbey. He was a local man who boosted the status and income of the Abbey, and it is said that he put up a stone church, the base of which forms the west end of the nave."

"The precinct of the abbey is a site of the greatest archaeological significance. Not only does it preserve the buried remains of the succession of churches which have stood on this site since the Anglo-Saxon period, with the extensive ranges around the cloisters; beyond them lie the earthworks and archaeological evidence of numerous other structures and activities, ranging in date from the Roman period to the recent past."

540
Carbon date for the occupation levels on Glastonbury Tor


600
Carbon date for the Vallum Monasterii


712
First stone church built by King Ine


Stories of a sacred vessel dear to the Celts became entwined with the story of Christ's Last Supper and the Christian Holy Grail which inspired quests and crusades across England, Europe and the Far East.
The Glastonbury and Somerset legends involve the boy Jesus together with his Great-Uncle, Joseph of Arimathea building Glastonbury's first wattle and daub church. These legends gave rise to the continuing cult of the Virgin on the site of the present Lady Chapel and inspired the title 'Our Lady St. Mary of Glastonbury', which is still used today.


Always check facts when you are speaking of historical things. If you want to continue this debate please do so with a private message as mentioned earlier this thread is about the rapture and I've already distrupted twice.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Always check facts when you are speaking of historical things. If you want to continue this debate please do so with a private message as mentioned earlier this thread is about the rapture and I've already distrupted twice.

Oh no, I don't wish to continue the debate, I was merely correcting you to the fact that Glastonbury was the first Christian Church and it was founded by Joseph of Arimathea, Mary and other early diciples of Christ. I am sure you can google something to the contrary, but that in no way changes the sources of proof that I have, you should be appreciative of the correction.

 

[Lindqvist]

My sources:

The Church itself and it's homepage
Carbon Dating
The text by King Ine declaring its founding

 

[jgrig2]

After having read through this entire thing I can come to one simple conclusion. To many people claim to have the one correct answer because they can "interpret" or "twist" scripture to fit their own needs. Be they clearly antisemitic or just "I'm right because I say so and I believe so."

Personally I feel you have all missed the point. God is love and compassion. Do you really think you are going to argue your way into heaven? Do you think you can get into heaven by twisting the words of scripture and casting doom and gloom upon everyone else?

If you are right well good for you, you'll clearly reach heaven and me with most of humanity will take the fastlane to hell. But you know what? I'll take my chances with following what Jesus thought about love and compassion. I'm quite certain that whether he was a Jew or not he was still nice and respectful towards them. If I'll end up burning in hell for my choice as least I know I wasn't a forumtroll.

Not that any of this is in anyway relevant. Jesus is the son of God, not the son of man, He is neither Jew, Roman or Egyptian. If he had a passport I'm pretty sure the son of God would qualify to get him past even the thoughest of officials.

hmm... no not quite right. Jesus was 100% God and 100% man. As man he was indeed Jewish and is still Jewish. Now, let me be quite clear: God's choosen people in the new covenant dispensation is not one race or nation but one confession which is Christ and Him crucified; and sinners being justified by Faith Alone. I would not kick someone out for disagreeing with me on these issues but civil discussion is necessary because The Bible matters. It is liberalism taht says the Bible is about morality and making people better. It is Christianity that says we are sinners and the Gospel is your only hope. Saying vague things like ''Jesus is love and compassion'' sounds all well and splendid but what does that mean actually? that we are not to confront sin when it is to be found? There is nothing more arrogant than thinking God's word is not clear and important to understand.

 

[Lindqvist]

Zeal is it's own excuse.

I'd love to answer and go on but as i've continued sidestepping the real issue in this thread can we take it in another thread?

 

[jgrig2]

An excellent book to counter the premil belief (and my opinion myth) is this:. CLICK HERE

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

My sources:

The Church itself and it's homepage

That is the abbey of Glastonbury, built out of stone upon the site where Joseph of Arimathaea built the first church, out of mud brick, I have already told you that Joseph built the first church in AD37, the only dispute could be for a AD63 date of the first mission to the Britons, that is the only dispute, but we have the martyrdom of the Apostle Simon Zeletos on May the 10th AD44 supported by the Greek Orthodox and Cardinal Baronius. I have all the history necessary to prove the case.

Carbon Dating
The text by King Ine declaring its founding

See above.