The Rapture?

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Definition_Christ

Guest
As they say in old country, is joke. Sorry, couldn't help myself I figured since the pre-tribbers(me) are so "evil" I'd poke a little fun.
Lol no worries. I also noticed ...

Isaiah 24
6 Therefore the curse has devoured the earth,
And those who dwell in it are desolate.
Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned,
And few men are left.

So this is after the tribulation ... Or the rapture will happen after this I am not sure. I am not pre-post or whatever tribber anymore haha I have to get some thoughts together first and hopefully God will reveal to me what is the truth..

Love this scripture Jeremiah 33:3 ‘Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’

So.. Hopefully I will get some sort of answer when it will take place..
 
Oct 1, 2009
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I think the one thing that stays in the back of my mind is many of the new agers and alien people are so anxious for those blocking, "the next step in our conscious evolution" to "disappear" from the planet in order to bring in the new era of peace, harmony, and enlightenment, as well as the messiah who is expected in all the worlds major religions.
 
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greatkraw

Guest
Right D_C, it also says this in 1st Thess 3:13.
1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

The thing with this is it also proves the post trib rapture. If the Church was raptured before the Tribulation and Jesus returned with the church only, then He would not be returning with the O.T. saints or the Tribulational converts, therefore that would not be all the saints.However if we are all caught up as Christ is returning to Earth to set up his Millennial Kingdom, the dead first, then those that are alive and remain. We are transformed into our immortal bodies, meet the Lord in the air as He is returning and return with Him then both Zachariah 14 and 1st Thess 3:13 will have been correctly fulfilled.
You are misrepresenting the true Bible position, Watchman, obviously to sneak you sinister heresy through.

When Christ rose from the dead he 'led captivity captive' which means that all the believers up until then who had died were released from Abraham's bosom and the realm of the dead and taken toheaven.

At the rapture the then believers will be taken to heaven. For an instant there will be no more believers on Earth and the Church will be complete.

When Christ returns he will bring believers from a number of dispensations but they will include the Church who exclusively make up his bride.
 
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greatkraw

Guest
I know that if I live my life to serve God and do His will is all that is needed.
But how can you know His will without getting to know Him through his
Word?
 
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Graybeard

Guest
Graybeard just to note these passage have to deal with the 2nd coming whether they include the catching up or rapture of the saints or not. If you would like I could weed through them and re-post only the passage that are referring to both the 2nd coming and the catching away or rapture of the saints.
No don't worry, this is fine.
Thanks for the time it took you, now it will take me some time too as I chew through it all and hopefully will define things for me:)
 
Apr 23, 2009
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Right D_C, it also says this in 1st Thess 3:13.
1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

The thing with this is it also proves the post trib rapture. If the Church was raptured before the Tribulation and Jesus returned with the church only, then He would not be returning with the O.T. saints or the Tribulational converts, therefore that would not be all the saints.However if we are all caught up as Christ is returning to Earth to set up his Millennial Kingdom, the dead first, then those that are alive and remain. We are transformed into our immortal bodies, meet the Lord in the air as He is returning and return with Him then both Zachariah 14 and 1st Thess 3:13 will have been correctly fulfilled.
You are misrepresenting the true Bible position, Watchman, obviously to sneak you sinister heresy through.

When Christ rose from the dead he 'led captivity captive' which means that all the believers up until then who had died were released from Abraham's bosom and the realm of the dead and taken toheaven.

At the rapture the then believers will be taken to heaven. For an instant there will be no more believers on Earth and the Church will be complete.

When Christ returns he will bring believers from a number of dispensations but they will include the Church who exclusively make up his bride.
I actually agree with yiou that the O.T. believe have been released from Abrahams Bosom and are in Heaven Heaven right now, and will return with Christ as part of His Bride. However even in your view (which is not held by mosst pretribbers) you do not account for the tribulational converts. If they are on earth when Christ returns that Jesus is not returning with ALL His sasints and therefore Zechariah 14, and 1st Thess 3:13 are not being fulfilled ain the way God Himself says they will.
 
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2 Thes 2
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

What is this talking about?
Some people say the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, others says it is the Church, some say it is satan. I believe the most biblically correct opinion is that the restrainer is Micheal the Arc Angel. I am off to church right now, but later I will show why The restrainer is more than likely Micheal (although no one can know for sure who it is) I will also show it cannot be the Holy Spirit, and I will also answer you question about why the word church is not used after Revelation 3.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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2 Thes 2
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
The day that will not come until after the church falls away, and the man of the sin (the anti christ) is revealed is the day of christ 2nd coming when He come to gather the elect via verse 1
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

What is this talking about?
I will now elaborate on the post below.

Some people say the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, others says it is the Church, some say it is satan. I believe the most biblically correct opinion is that the restrainer is Micheal the Arc Angel. I am off to church right now, but later I will show why The restrainer is more than likely Micheal (although no one can know for sure who it is) I will also show it cannot be the Holy Spirit, and I will also answer you question about why the word church is not used after Revelation 3.
Daniel 10
12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Daniel 10:21 But I will tell thee that which is inscribed in the writing of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me against these, but Michael your prince.

Daniel 12:
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Revelation 12:
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.



At God's command, Michael will stand up and go to fight Lucifer in heaven. Lucifer will be cast down and Michael will no longer be restraining the revealing of the antichrist so all hell will break loose on earth, literally, as Lucifer deceives the whole earth whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life.This is the best biblical opinion of who the restrainer is the bible doesn't specifically say who it is that restrains, but I think a very good case for it being Micheal can be made. There is no scriptural evidence at all for anyone to believe it is the Holy Spirit, the church or satan. However you can prove beyond any shadow of any doubt that the restrainer cannot be the Holy Spirit

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
For pretribbers to say that the Holy spirit is removed from the earth to start the tribulation directly contradicts scripture itself.




It is my biblical belief that the restrainer is Micheal the Arc angel.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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Also can you explain to me why the word "Church", isn't used after Revelation chapter 3 until Revelation 22:16?
In all of Paul writings when he referred to ''church'' he meant the local church as in the church in Romans, church in Corinth, church in Thessalonica ect.... Even when in 2nd Thessalonians Paul refers to many local church as ''churches''. He never referred to the universal body as the church. Which is exactly the context in Revelation the church is referring to the local church. John is writing to 7 local churches in Asia. Every time the word church is used in Revelation it is referring to one of those 7 local churches. After Revelation 3 John is no longer directing his statements to any of the local churches, but to the whole, therefore he doesn't use the word church at all. However there is no question when reading through Revelation that believers or the universal church is present during the tribulation here are a few verses that indicate this.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


All these verses and other prove christians I.E. the church will be present for the Tribulation.

Back to the original point that term church is referring to local churches and not the universal church, even the scripture you gave ''Revelation 22:16'' points this out when using the plural form CHURCHES in the text.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

So we see that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is to the many local churches then and now specifically the 7 in Asia, we can also see there will be believers/ sainst/ the universal church here during the Tribulation.
 
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Definition_Christ

Guest
The day that will not come until after the church falls away, and the man of the sin (the anti christ) is revealed is the day of christ 2nd coming when He come to gather the elect via verse 1
I will now elaborate on the post below.

Daniel 10
12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Daniel 10:21 But I will tell thee that which is inscribed in the writing of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me against these, but Michael your prince.

Daniel 12:
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Revelation 12:
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.



At God's command, Michael will stand up and go to fight Lucifer in heaven. Lucifer will be cast down and Michael will no longer be restraining the revealing of the antichrist so all hell will break loose on earth, literally, as Lucifer deceives the whole earth whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life.This is the best biblical opinion of who the restrainer is the bible doesn't specifically say who it is that restrains, but I think a very good case for it being Micheal can be made. There is no scriptural evidence at all for anyone to believe it is the Holy Spirit, the church or satan. However you can prove beyond any shadow of any doubt that the restrainer cannot be the Holy Spirit

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
For pretribbers to say that the Holy spirit is removed from the earth to start the tribulation directly contradicts scripture itself.




It is my biblical belief that the restrainer is Micheal the Arc angel.
That verse in revelation is talking about the fall of Satan and what happend in heaven, as you know Satan is not in heaven anymore... I don't see that as a proof for Michael the archangel being removed.

Hence...
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

So.. Unless you are saying Satan the Devil is in heaven right now than no. That is not the most biblical proof.. It actually lines up perfectly with Isaiah 14..

Isaiah 14
12 “ How you are fallen from heaven, (IE...Neither was their a place found anymore in heaven (Rev. 12:8 and "cast out" Rev. 12.9)
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations! (IE. "which deceiveth the whole world" Rev 12.9)
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘ I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; (IE. Rev 12:4 " His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth (So we know the stars are angels... "Exalt my throne above the stars in heaven" lines up with.. (Rev 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon"
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
(has not happened yet)

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

For pretribbers to say that the Holy spirit is removed from the earth to start the tribulation directly contradicts scripture itself.
It's not a contradiction if the saints go to heaven WITH the Holy Spirit.

For those scriptures in Daniel 10 I don't see them as proofs either..

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ] had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Apparently the bible scholars thought Paul was talking about the Holy Spirit here. Otherwise they wouldn't capitalize the "He".
Which makes sense.. I don't see anywhere in Scripture where Michael the archangel is on Earth. Or even hinting this is speaking of him.
So the Holy Spirit will restrain everyone (the fullness of the Gentiles).. And than be taken away and than the anti Christ will be revealed. I don't see any proofs at all Paul is speaking about Michael the archangel here.

Titus 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

I find it hard to believe that the "blessed hope", is the great tribulation..
 
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shad

Guest
There is no scriptural evidence at all for anyone to believe it is the Holy Spirit, the church or satan. However you can prove beyond any shadow of any doubt that the restrainer cannot be the Holy Spirit

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

For pretribbers to say that the Holy spirit is removed from the earth to start the tribulation directly contradicts scripture itself.
Just exactly how have you proved, beyond a shadow of doubt, that the restrainer can not be the Holy Spirit? By using Heb 13:5?????? Are you for real????? Do you really have any idea what you are saying? And now you are going to persuade God's children that the angel Michael is the restrainer of 2Thes 2:7? Why didn't Michael restrain the devil when Jesus went into the wilderness and was tempted? Didn't the devil promise Him all the kingdoms of the earth if Jesus would bow down and worship him? I wonder just how many kingdoms the devil was able to establish on the earth that he offered Christ. I guess Michael wasn't able to restrained the devil from doing that.

Isn't Satan already the god of this world and the author of confusion / 2Cor 4:4. The scriptures tell us to put on the whole armour of God that we might be able to stand against the wiles of the devil / Eph 6:11. Satan is already here on the earth as well as the prince and power of the air/ Eph 2:2. Doesn't the devil have the freedom here on the earth to walk about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour / 1Pt5:8? Does that sound like a restrained devil to you? Is Michael doing his job or what?

If Michael is the restrainer and he is restraining the devil in what capacity is he being restrained? Is Michael restraining the devil so that we won't give him place or is it our job not to give place / Eph 4:27? And what about this synagogue of Satan talked about in Rev 2:9, 3:9? What about Peter when he was used by the devil to rebuke Jesus from going to the cross / Mt 16:22,23? You should learn how to study all the way through before you come to all of these strange conclusions. It is no surprise that you believe that God's children can lose their eternal salvation. That is a major flaw of character.
 
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It's not a contradiction if the saints go to heaven WITH the Holy Spirit.
It is a contradiction, because under any belief system there will be believers here during the trib which would be impossible if the Holy spirit is removed.

There is not one scripture that would indicate that the holy spirit is the restrainer, only speculation with absolutely no scriptural support. On the other hand the belief that Micheal is the restrainer although also speculation has scriptural support.


I find it hard to believe that the "blessed hope", is the great tribulation..
The blessed hope is neither the Tribulation or the pretrib rapture but it is the resurrection of the just.

Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Acts 26
6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers:
7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.
8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?



1st Corinthians 15
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(Our hope is the resurrection.)


1st Thess4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


This passage here has absolutely nothing to do with a rapture much less the pretrib rapture but it is about our blessed hope which is the resurrection of the just. That is what we are to comfort one another with, that the dead in Christ shall rise.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

There is not one verse in all of scripture that even mentions a pretrib rapture, much less one that indicate the rapture is our hope. The blessed hope that occurs at the coming of Christ (which is after the Tribulation by the way) is the resurrection of the just. And oh by the way those that are alive and remain will also be caught up to meet Jesus and the resurrection just in the air after the just are resurrected at the post trib 2nd coming.

Our Blessed hope is the resurrection of the Just this is what scripture teaches us.
 
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Just exactly how have you proved, beyond a shadow of doubt, that the restrainer can not be the Holy Spirit? By using Heb 13:5?????? Are you for real????? Do you really have any idea what you are saying? And now you are going to persuade God's children that the angel Michael is the restrainer of 2Thes 2:7? Why didn't Michael restrain the devil when Jesus went into the wilderness and was tempted? Didn't the devil promise Him all the kingdoms of the earth if Jesus would bow down and worship him? I wonder just how many kingdoms the devil was able to establish on the earth that he offered Christ. I guess Michael wasn't able to restrained the devil from doing that.
It is you that has no idea what you are talking about. The Holy Spirit led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted. Micheal would not restrain something that God wills. Micheal takes his orders from God. Saying the holy Spirit is the restrainer is certainly not proof that He is, and that is all pretribbers do is proclaiming it as true. I challenge you do even attempt to find one verse of scripture that can support this theory.
 
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Definition_Christ

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Well no Jews will be able to be saved until the fullness of the Gentiles (Church, no disrespect for messianic Jews).. But besides that few amount of messianic Jews, the Lord will open the Jews eyes when the Church is raptured up (not saying it's pre-post or whatever), just whenever that happens. Than the Jews will realize the anti Christ is false messiah .. They will call to Yeshua and...

"All of Israel will be saved".

Is that accurate/biblical, that the Jews will not come to know the truth until the Church is gone?
 
Apr 23, 2009
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Well no Jews will be able to be saved until the fullness of the Gentiles (Church, no disrespect for messianic Jews).. But besides that few amount of messianic Jews, the Lord will open the Jews eyes when the Church is raptured up (not saying it's pre-post or whatever), just whenever that happens. Than the Jews will realize the anti Christ is false messiah .. They will call to Yeshua and...

"All of Israel will be saved".

Is that accurate/biblical, that the Jews will not come to know the truth until the Church is gone?
All of the 12 apostles were Jews, and so was the apostle Paul. There are many, many Jewish believers in todays church. The scripture all of Israel will be saved is referring to the restoration of the Jews as Christ returns. At the post trib 2nd coming the first thing Christ is going to do is resurrection the just, next He will rapture those that are alive and remain (believers that survive the Tribulation). Then as you state He will save all of Israel. As Christ returns the jews that have not bowed to the anti christ will look upon Him whom they have pierce they will know He is Messiah and repent. They will not be caught up but they will be protected from the wrath and enter into the millennium not in resurrected immortal bodies but in mortal bodies like the one we have now. After This Jesus will destroy the wicked with fire, reknew the earth and begin His Millennial reign.
 
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Definition_Christ

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No this is not accurate. All of the 12 apostles were Jews, and so was the apostle Paul. There are many, many Jewish believers in todays church. The scripture all of Israel will be saved is referring to the restoration of the Jews as Christ returns. At the post trib 2nd coming the first thing Christ is going to do is resurrection the just, next He will rapture those that are alive and remain (believers that survive the Tribulastion). Then as you state He will save all of Israel. As Christ returns they will look upon Him whom they have peirce they will realize they were mistaken they will know He is Messiah and repent. They will not be caught up but they will be protected from the wrath and enter into the millennium not in resurrected immortal bodies but in mortal bodies like the one we have now. After This Jesus will destroy the wicked with fire, reknew the earth and begin His Millennial reign.
?????????????????????????

Romans 11
1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,
3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”?
4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 Just as it is written:


“ God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”


9 And David says:


“ Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”


11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:


“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”


28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 “ For who has known the mind of the LORD?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “ Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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D_C, there are many Jews who are blind most likely the majority, and all the scripture you posted are true, but the fact remains that the early church were all Jewish believers, and there are many Jewish believe in todays church. However as scripture tells us when Christ return right after the gathering of the elect, the Jews will be save. I do not think we disagree here. i was just trying to explain to you the application of how these verses will be fulfilled.
 
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shad

Guest
It is you that has no idea what you are talking about. The Holy Spirit led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted. Micheal would not restrain something that God wills. Micheal takes his orders from God. Saying the holy Spirit is the restrainer is certainly not proof that He is, and that is all pretribbers do is proclaiming it as true. I challenge you do even attempt to find one verse of scripture that can support this theory.
So your going to blow right by all those things mentioned and not even consider them. Is that how you treat the whole counsel of God? You're just not going to compare spiritual things with spiritual / 1Cor 2:13. I am challenging you because you are the one that is broadcasting the scriptures the way you do. You need to be under a true man of God that is a pastor/teacher that can teach you the scriptures and has plenty of experience behind him. Someone that teaches sound doctrine and can teach you the meat of God's word. Someone that is grace oriented and labors in the word and doctrine.

You need to be able to submit yourself to this kind of pastor/teacher so that you would be restrained from getting off on these tangents and grow in grace and knowledge of Christ. That would profit you in the right way and you would be part of a ministry that's doing the work of God with sound doctrine. I don't know what you are being taught at your church, but if it is teaching you what you are propagating here, you have a problem.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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So your going to blow right by all those things mentioned and not even consider them. Is that how you treat the whole counsel of God? You're just not going to compare spiritual things with spiritual / 1Cor 2:13. I am challenging you because you are the one that is broadcasting the scriptures the way you do. You need to be under a true man of God that is a pastor/teacher that can teach you the scriptures and has plenty of experience behind him. Someone that teaches sound doctrine and can teach you the meat of God's word. Someone that is grace oriented and labors in the word and doctrine.

You need to be able to submit yourself to this kind of pastor/teacher so that you would be restrained from getting off on these tangents and grow in grace and knowledge of Christ. That would profit you in the right way and you would be part of a ministry that's doing the work of God with sound doctrine. I don't know what you are being taught at your church, but if it is teaching you what you are propagating here, you have a problem.
With all your bluster you have yet to even attempt to give a scripture that would indicate that teh Holy Spirit is restraining the anti christ from taking over the world. It is my educated guess is that you will never attempt this, because you and I both know there is no verse in all of scripture that makes such a claim.
 
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shad

Guest
With all your bluster you have yet to even attempt to give a scripture that would indicate that teh Holy Spirit is restraining the anti christ from taking over the world. It is my educated guess is that you will never attempt this, because you and I both know there is no verse in all of scripture that makes such a claim.
You are the one that is in on here making the claims as to who the restrainer is and who it is not. I am not doing it, you are. The burden is on you to give the evidence from the scriptures for your claims. My job is to challenge you and the validity of your conclusions. You may not like it, but perhaps it is time you grow up in grace and truth concerning our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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