The Surest Signs of...

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Aug 11, 2017
96
4
0
#21
A natural man may dislike his lusts and vices, but disliking them isn't the same as overcoming them. I think this is the point Nehemiah6 is trying to make.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#22
At the moment, based on my research I'd tend to agree with Nehemiah6 that the OP is a nonsequitor. There are qualities of God that the carnal mind rejects, and then there is evidence of regeneration, and these two concepts seem to be unrelated. Acceptance of what the carnal mind rejects (Jesus as savior, the cross as our victory) is step 1 of receiving salvation, but the demonstrable proof of regeneration is something else.

Of course, I'm interested in hearing what Lynn has to offer in defense of the OP.
Here's the thing. Know what I liked about that meme? It caught onto something I hadn't thought over before. I mean, I've thought over my problem often enough that ultimately the Lord has settled it for me, but never in that way has it been so confusing and so clear.

I didn't get it immediately. I had to think about it. (No idea how you researched it.) What attributes of God are reprehensible to anyone? Because immediately my mind went where everyone of God's peeps goes -- love, kindness, mercy, long suffering. I really like those qualities in a person, so why wouldn't I want them in God?

So what qualities are reprehensible to those unregenerated? Had to ask hubby, I was so stuck.

He came up with sovereign.

Oh yeah! Bullseye! What doesn't frost us more than someone having complete power and control over us? That's just rude. We need to be free, right? We're supposed to be able to do anything we want, so to not have that? Reprehensible! Really good word. And yet, God IS completely sovereign!

Then I went to wrath! Got to admit, I love songs where people can slice-and-dice a person to a pile of goop. Bob Dylan had that skill with words. When he put you down, you knew it. He was downright wrathful, when he had the gumption. And, yet, comparatively, Dylan is small town compared to God. God has ginormous wrath! He out and out created a place of punishment so bad, it makes the Romans look like kindergarten bullies compared to what God does. God will send most people along with every demon out there permanently to hell! Does wrath ever get worse than that? And yet, that is who God is. If we don't love him knowing that, then we aren't regenerated.

And then there is one that annoys most people -- perfect! Abraham Lincoln said not to trust a man without any vices, and yet God has no vices. God is perfect. Ever run into someone who is above average, and kind of headed toward perfect? Annoying, aren't they? And yet God is perfect. Never did any wrong. And yet, we're to love him for that too.

Really? I suspect there is more than that. I suspect God has other attributes unregenerated man would hate, that we have had to rethink and let him change our hearts all the way up to loving him.




Except, sure enough. BDF is set up (anymore) to argue, so heaven forbid anyone think it over and join me in a conversation about what it means to you... instead of figuring out how to argue it.

Once in a while, I'd love to join other believers in truly thinking out God, instead of truly thinking out how we're right about something.

And yet, anyone reading this now has been shown what to do with it. How to argue it, thanks to Neh showing the way. When you said it was a non sequitur, you said that after Neh showed you the way to disagree. Too much to ask to think it over and honestly think out what Jonathan Edwards was saying? He wasn't known for shying away from God's "messy side." The side of God unregenerated man hated.

That should have been enough there, without me bringing in my two cents.

Since you're new, just a recommendation. You don't want to learn how to do it from others on this forum. Most of them are out to argue. I was really hoping for discussion.

I know. Silly me. I'm an optimist.

But watch what happens next, people will come along to teach their ideas and learn me, because I am so absolutely clueless to add anything from some dead guy. Their first post will be to do that. (Because they will do that before thinking it out or reading the rest.) Their second one will be to blast me for "teaching," (when I do NOT teach) or some other knee-jerk reason, and then curse me out for whatever reason. Or curse out someone else who responded in the thread and then take it to something entirely unrelated. This is what happens.

But I thought it was a good meme by a smart man. I was hoping for good conversation. AND, really hoping others would join in with God's attributes that unregenerated man hates.

 
D

Depleted

Guest
#23
Open request to those who join in: If you happened to be one of the people who just wanted to think about it and talk, please add your comment, and PM me. I would have loved this to be worth conversing about, so I will read, if you'd do me that favor.

As it stands now, it's just another place to argue, so I will unsubscribe to it, unless anyone has something edifying to add. Thanks.
 

Marano

Senior Member
Dec 7, 2011
385
25
28
23
#24
Open request to those who join in: If you happened to be one of the people who just wanted to think about it and talk, please add your comment, and PM me. I would have loved this to be worth conversing about, so I will read, if you'd do me that favor.

As it stands now, it's just another place to argue, so I will unsubscribe to it, unless anyone has something edifying to add. Thanks.
I agree that God's sovereignity and wrath over sin is what most unbelievers hate, they also hate judgement and the fact that they are accountable for their actions to God, because it shows them their sin and they don't want that because of pride, not only do they love their sin they're also prideful in not admitting it.

So I like that quote from Jonathan Edwards and can agree with it.
 
Aug 11, 2017
96
4
0
#25
Why can't we have a good conversation about it still? Can't we explore this together and see where it leads? I based my initial research on what the Bible says about 1) God's qualities rejected by man, and 2) proof of regeneration. That's all I did. It was no more complex nor insidious than that. I didn't set out to try to disagree with you. I did a Bible study to form my own thoughts. How is that wrong?

You have three of God's qualities that were obstacles for you. Very interesting! I would not have come up with those three myself. I can definitely see why the quote would ring true for you based on those three things.
 

Yonah

Senior Member
Oct 31, 2014
1,074
102
48
#26
... which means to you? Huh? Sorry. Not getting what you mean.
what it means to me is we need not go about looking for signs of a regenerate heart, one who is indwelled with the Holy Spirit will posses what is in those scriptures in measure.
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,057
764
113
#27
Oh...I read the meme in a slightly different way I think...

Don't know if I can explain but I'm going to try.

We can both love and hate an attribute of God. By that I mean, we love mercy when God applies it to us. When we must extend it to anyone else, it becomes odious to us. THEY don't deserve it because of how they treated us. THEY need to apologize first. We'll do it later but we're gonna make them squirm first and be real sorry.

So the way I read the meme was that when we begin to display true and unfeigned mercy out of gratitude for the mercy He has shown us, when He brings us to that, then we are TRULY loving that attribute of God and we're loving it for all men, not just ourself.
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,646
251
83
#28
what it means to me is we need not go about looking for signs of a regenerate heart, one who is indwelled with the Holy Spirit will posses what is in those scriptures in measure.
I would say that another sign of a 're-generate heart can be found in
1Pet 2v23, For 'you were as sheep going astray; but are now returned 'unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Who is the 'good Shepherd ? the one who died for his sheep and rose again to seek what was lost ! You know the one who is the 'same yesterday, today and forever ! who will answer His call ?
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
2,926
120
63
#29
Imo the greatest attribute and most misunderstood of God is his love. The stoning of Steven shows us a glimpse of a totally regenerated heart. For Steven to say to the Lord put no charge against these men was far above any human understanding. The natural man would ask for vengeance or Devine intervention. To the natural man Steven was spineless for not fighting back defending himself.
Christ himself ask the Lord to forgive them as he hung on the cross. The Greek language would suggest that he repeatedly said this plea not just once. Forgiveness out of Love is one of the rarest attribute demostrated. Mostly because forgiveness is given out of obedience.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
30,292
1,202
113
#30
Not really sure about the statement, but will say...a sure sign that All men may know we are the disciples of Jesus is if we have love ONE TOWARD ANOTHER.....the context being disciples loving one another.....
 

Blain

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
14,546
396
83
#31
Not really sure about the statement, but will say...a sure sign that All men may know we are the disciples of Jesus is if we have love ONE TOWARD ANOTHER.....the context being disciples loving one another.....
I guess the bdf forum is doomed then lol. Love is not exactly common here
 

Blain

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
14,546
396
83
#32
Imo the greatest attribute and most misunderstood of God is his love. The stoning of Steven shows us a glimpse of a totally regenerated heart. For Steven to say to the Lord put no charge against these men was far above any human understanding. The natural man would ask for vengeance or Devine intervention. To the natural man Steven was spineless for not fighting back defending himself.
Christ himself ask the Lord to forgive them as he hung on the cross. The Greek language would suggest that he repeatedly said this plea not just once. Forgiveness out of Love is one of the rarest attribute demostrated. Mostly because forgiveness is given out of obedience.
Amen amen and a thousand more amens, I applaud your insight my friend :)
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
30,292
1,202
113
#33
I guess the bdf forum is doomed then lol. Love is not exactly common here
The key word being disciples....not everyone that names Jesus is a disciple, much less saved or even Christian.....!!!!
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
2,926
120
63
#34
Thanks for the reply and the rep Blain. I was watching a movie the other nite and a man made a comment in the movie and said "the world is full of men who would lay down their life for their cause".

I thought to my self how many would lay down their life for the cause of others? That's when the scripture "pick up your cross and follow me " took on a whole new meaning.
 

Miri

Senior Member
Jul 22, 2012
7,990
826
113
UK age 49
#35
For the most part, the natural man doesn't believe in God. Those "natural men"
that do have a perverse distorted view of God.

i.e. Buddha, allah or even "Christians" in name only who believe God exists but that's
about it.

The natrual man might recognice some of the attributes, love for example, they know
what love is. Justice, all people want justice. But even that love and justice is from a
selfish perspective. One man's justice is another man's unfairness.

Dare I say that even born again Christians can have a distorted view of the attitrubtes
of God. The truth comes with growth and maturity along the Christian walk.

So yes, blessed is a person who both fully "knows" and fully "understands" the attributes
of God. For only a born again Christian can ever come to fully know and understand them.

Even when we don't understand (and let's face it we all have why questions), the
Godly person can at least say, ok I don't understand but I trust the one who is wisdom itself.
 

Miri

Senior Member
Jul 22, 2012
7,990
826
113
UK age 49
#36
Sorry im tired, my spelling is awful this morning. Lol
 

Miri

Senior Member
Jul 22, 2012
7,990
826
113
UK age 49
#37
By the way I think those which are reprehensible to natural man do include
holyiness especially. Every man is right in his own eyes. In Gods eyes there is
definite right and wrong - sin. In the eyes of natural man, anything goes.

God equals authority, whereas natural man thinks his home is his castle and he is authority.

God raises kingdoms, people, etc, whereas natural man thinks it's all down to his own efforts.

Natural man thinks they are judge, jury and execution, they don't like to think the ultimate
judge is God.

Mankind likes to think destiny is in its hands. Its quite an eye opener to understand actually,
time is in HIS hands.

(Im not teaching honest this is just my opinion :))
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,646
251
83
#38
Not really sure about the statement, but will say...a sure sign that All men may know we are the disciples of Jesus is if we have love ONE TOWARD ANOTHER.....the context being disciples loving one another.....
A disciple is one who 'learns disciplene, who is TRAINED a certain way' which can only be achieved when WALKING with JESUS 24/7 IN THE FIRST PLACE....you know the scripture that says 'train up a child...and we MUST become AS a child to enter the Kgd of God.
Humans do not have the 'kind of love that will ALWAYS submit to God but only OBEDIENCE CAN INSTIL into an Un-regenerate Mind...which ALL of US start out with (all have sinned).
True AGAPE Love only comes with getting to know God better as we walk with Him !!! taking a different route to the one Jesus walks does not conform us to HIS image...and there is LITERAL evidence that trad/nom christians are NOT walking with the true authentic Jesus but an imposter from Rome.
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,646
251
83
#39
By the way I think those which are reprehensible to natural man do include
holyiness especially. Every man is right in his own eyes. In Gods eyes there is
definite right and wrong - sin. In the eyes of natural man, anything goes.

God equals authority, whereas natural man thinks his home is his castle and he is authority.

God raises kingdoms, people, etc, whereas natural man thinks it's all down to his own efforts.

Natural man thinks they are judge, jury and execution, they don't like to think the ultimate
judge is God.

Mankind likes to think destiny is in its hands. Its quite an eye opener to understand actually,
time is in HIS hands.

(Im not teaching honest this is just my opinion :))
And you have a point regarding HOLYNESS ! People think they can trample over it because it does not fit their understanding Isa 58v13...go on read it !
What they are actually showing is an 'impenetent and unregenerate heart that refuses to be trained and disciplened, a Mind that refuses to submit to God...it's all there in scripture !
The one thing HOLY to God is a stumbling stone for trad/nom christians who like to decide for themselves what and how to do things....yet pretend it's from God.
Jesus had to learn obedience and so must any who want to be a child of God Heb 5v8,9. Love/Grace will not overlook or disregard Obedience.
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,057
764
113
#40
Not really sure about the statement, but will say...a sure sign that All men may know we are the disciples of Jesus is if we have love ONE TOWARD ANOTHER.....the context being disciples loving one another.....
Yes. :)
And lest we make any provision for our flesh in that, there are also other verses that prevent this - if we love only those who love us, what good is that? And, love your enemies.

These verses prevent us from saying, and who is my brother, thereby finding a provision for our flesh.

Don't know if that made sense to anyone...