The Surest Signs of...

[Depleted]

I first tried to identify what the natural mind rejects about God. So I did a search for "natural mind rejects." Those exact words appear in 1 Corinthians 2. The interesting thing about that chapter, at least for me, was that Paul didn't say Jews and Greeks reject the idea of a sovereign God. He said the Jews want a sign and the Greeks want fancy philosophy. They were searching for God, but they were blind because they refused to see power in a cross. Paul called crucifixion a stumbling block that hindered even those who were deist.

Then I tweaked the keywords to look for the same thing that may have been phrased differently. "Fleshy mind" will take you to Romans 8 and Colossians 2. Romans 8 fits in with the theme of rejection, so I read the chapter to see what the fleshly mind was rejecting. "Flesh reveal" brings up Matthew 16.

It's not an exhaustive method to find every reason why people reject God. Some people are indeed simply rebellious. Others fancy themselves able to judge God's moral character (in regards to wrath).

But I took the Edwards quote to mean sensible, responsible people who could not comprehend certain things in the natural mind. Some things about God cannot at all be surmised in human thinking even when we want to believe. 1 Corinthians 2, Romans 8, and other Bible passages describe this phenomenon.

So I guess it's a question of what Edwards meant by natural man. Did he mean rebellious unbelievers who were looking for excuses to stay in sin? Or did he mean the actual inability to understand spirit?

Holy cow! I'm kind of stuck on words and phrases in the Bible I already know. No way, no how, did it ever dawn on me that words like "natural minds" and "fleshy minds" would be in the Bible.

(Thick. I'm really thickheaded. lol)

Thank you. Will try that next time.

Since Edward's big theme was Sinners in the Hands of a Wrathful God, I just assumed he meant sinners. That said, I also assumed natural minds and fleshy minds weren't in the Bible, so I could be wrong.

 

[Depleted]

In the gospel of John we read over and over again about the one that Jesus loved. Such a bold statement John was making about himself you would of thought the Holy Spirit would omit it.
But it goes on record as truth. In the same way can we or do we say the same thing. I'm the one the Lord loves, Jesus loves me.
God's love is not earned by merit, nor by appearance, nor by us loving him, in fact this is our stumbling block why does he love us. I suppose you could put theology in motion and say it's his will to love us or he can't deny himself but could anyone really say why?
This world has conditioned us to set conditions in order to be liked let alone loved.
Jesus proved that love conquers all things . Agape is such a mystery to all of us that we deny it's existence yet only with the spirit can we fathom it's reality and by the gift and Grace of God share it with others.
It's not by might not by power but by my spirit says the Lord. For God is love.

I think John's humility helps pull off that statement. The man wouldn't even name himself as one of the two disciples of John the Baptist who joined Jesus when Jesus went to be baptized. (Andrew was the other dude.)

But I also think he comes by that like I've been learning to accept hubby loves me. I do not understand why he does. He's a very nice, easy-going, sweet guy, so why would he choose me? Ultimately, there is no answer to it. So, why not just enjoy it and love him back?

 

[RamahDesjardin]

Holy cow! I'm kind of stuck on words and phrases in the Bible I already know. No way, no how, did it ever dawn on me that words like "natural minds" and "fleshy minds" would be in the Bible.

It never hurts to search for a keyword just to have a looky-loo. Sometimes you strike out, other times you stumble on an obscure Bible verse. There's no law that says you can't try it out of curiosity.

I just read the whole transcript of that sermon. He describes his target audience as wicked men close to reprobate, yet they were not "bad people" by general moral standards. These were people who knew right from wrong and thus convinced themselves they were responsible enough to stay out of trouble. In other words they saw themselves as special snowflakes. God's wrath was for the rest of the world, and they'd be clever enough to escape. That sounds a lot like pride!!

 

[RamahDesjardin]

Love is a broad term with many different flavors. We see in Scripture that even thieves love their friends (Matthew 5:46) and even evil people love their children (Luke 11:11). We even see (1 John 2:15) that it's possible to love the world. These words are all variances of agape -- in other words, they come from the same root but they were modified. It's a flavor of love that's not as potent as the real thing.

Agape in its purest root form always appears in Scripture to describe the love of God. We find it in 1 Corinthians 13, Galatians 5 as a fruit of the Spirit, etc.

When people try to measure God's love by the love they see from humans, they're comparing a modification to the real thing. It's like saying decaf coffee doesn't keep you awake, so therefore you don't believe in real coffee.

 

[dcontroversal]

A disciple is one who 'learns disciplene, who is TRAINED a certain way' which can only be achieved when WALKING with JESUS 24/7 IN THE FIRST PLACE....you know the scripture that says 'train up a child...and we MUST become AS a child to enter the Kgd of God.
Humans do not have the 'kind of love that will ALWAYS submit to God but only OBEDIENCE CAN INSTIL into an Un-regenerate Mind...which ALL of US start out with (all have sinned).
True AGAPE Love only comes with getting to know God better as we walk with Him !!! taking a different route to the one Jesus walks does not conform us to HIS image...and there is LITERAL evidence that trad/nom christians are NOT walking with the true authentic Jesus but an imposter from Rome.

The word disciple means a learner of one's doctrine....yes we are transformed by the renewing of the mind (Romans 12:1-2) and through a process of growth anf maturity LEARN to walk as he walked.....not without failure on occasion I might add........show me one person that walks as he walked 24/7/365

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes.
And lest we make any provision for our flesh in that, there are also other verses that prevent this - if we love only those who love us, what good is that? And, love your enemies.

These verses prevent us from saying, and who is my brother, thereby finding a provision for our flesh.

Don't know if that made sense to anyone...

I personally believe we as believers have degraded the love of God down to a worldly type of ooey gooey love.....think about how Jesus responded to all around him while loving all....to the weak and beggarly he had compassion, to the Pharisees he sometimes raked them over the coals and ate with them as well, his own disciples he at times had them lay upon his breast and at other times rebuked them and called them Satan......the problem with love today is many expect us to receive anything and everything from those around us under the banner of love....I do not buy this view of love......The love of God supercedes this watered down version peddled by many today in our society....sometimes it demands we cut people loose, rebuke, disassociate and or cut off for the sake of the truth.....there is not one place found where the truth of God is to be compromised for the sake of love........just saying and not arguing

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I personally believe we as believers have degraded the love of God down to a worldly type of ooey gooey love.....think about how Jesus responded to all around him while loving all....to the weak and beggarly he had compassion, to the Pharisees he sometimes raked them over the coals and ate with them as well, his own disciples he at times had them lay upon his breast and at other times rebuked them and called them Satan......the problem with love today is many expect us to receive anything and everything from those around us under the banner of love....I do not buy this view of love......The love of God supercedes this watered down version peddled by many today in our society....sometimes it demands we cut people loose, rebuke, disassociate and or cut off for the sake of the truth.....there is not one place found where the truth of God is to be compromised for the sake of love........just saying and not arguing

You can love and lay down your life for men without sacrificing the truth...
Not sure what you mean by ooey gooey , but true love is not manners and politeness, though they are good!
True love is laying down your life of pride, and your rights to be well treated, for the good of another mans soul. You give up your life of pride for his life to be won for your Lord. You love him first, you don't revile back, you pray for and bless him when he treats you despitefully. It is impossible to do or to work up on our own. We have to first see that we don't have enough love and ASK for what we lack.

Truth is not compromised for love.
Truth IS love.

 

[valiant]

Well this is what Jonathan Edwards said: The surest signs of true regeneration [are] when we love those attributes of God that are most reprehensible to the natural man".

On the surface this appears to be sound, but let's analyze it? What is most reprehensible to the natural man? God's holiness, righteousness, justice, and hatred and wrath against sin. So what Edwards is saying that if we love these attributes that is the surest sign of having been born again or regenerated. But is that what the Bible actually teaches?

The first epistle of John is probably one of the best writings to give us the SUREST signs of regeneration, and they are not really corresponding to Edwards criteria. So here is a list from this epistle:

1. Walking in the light ( 1 Jn 1:7) -- meaning walking in the Spirit and according to the Light of the written Word

2. Refusing to say that we have no sin (1 Jn: 1:8-10) -- examining ourselves daily, confessing daily, repenting daily

3. Obeying Christ's commandments (1 Jn 2:3-6) -- walking as Christ walked

These are just a few of the surest signs of regeneration. But each one reading this thread should go through the entire epistle and discover that there are at least another dozen signs which the Holy Spirit has revealed through John. Which means that Jonathan Edwards aphorism should be set aside for actual Scripture.

But those arise out of Jonathan Edward's definition.

We could not walk in the light if we were not aware of the darkness (1 John 1.5).

We would not admit our sin if we were not aware of God's righteousness and holiness

We would not obey Christ's commands if we were not aware of His righteousness and holiness.

And many a person has thought that he is doing these things and is ok and has been wrong because his standard was not high enough.
Many a person 'loves God' but as never realised what that means,

So there is much to be said for Jonathan Edward's definition.

 

[beta]

The word disciple means a learner of one's doctrine....yes we are transformed by the renewing of the mind (Romans 12:1-2) and through a process of growth anf maturity LEARN to walk as he walked.....not without failure on occasion I might add........show me one person that walks as he walked 24/7/365

I agree...we do stumble from time to time. By 24/7 I do not mean 'perfect' but rather 'every day'....which is something trad christians do NOT do. They do not walk with Jesus on the Sabbath or the sunday and that causes a 'break in the relationship IF it even exists at all. God/Jesus do not associate with false teaching.

 

[Zmouth]

The first epistle of John is probably one of the best writings to give us the SUREST signs of regeneration, and they are not really corresponding to Edwards criteria. So here is a list from this epistle:

1. Walking in the light ( 1 Jn 1:7) -- meaning walking in the Spirit and according to the Light of the written Word

"... not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." 2 Cor 3:6

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Phil 2:13

2. Refusing to say that we have no sin (1 Jn: 1:8-10) -- examining ourselves daily, confessing daily, repenting daily

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; Heb 13:21-20

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 2 Cor 13:5

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2 Peter 1:5-9

3. Obeying Christ's commandments (1 Jn 2:3-6) -- walking as Christ walked

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt 5:48

 

[RamahDesjardin]

So what is the surest sign of regeneration? If 1 John 1 is apparently useless, what sign should we use? It's all well and good to talk in abstract terms about walking in the Spirit, but lots of people with contrary lifestyles are quite sure they are regenerated.

 

[garee]

The scriptures informs us its an evil generation the generation of natural unconverted man that does seek to know God who has no form , after a sign (as that seen) . The biblical sign of regeneration is a new spirit that will never die giving us a new heart that desires to do the will of Him not seen .By it and through that new desire we stay in the will of God as long as we can and if we do deny him in unbelief we are informed It is Him who calls us back to repentance each time we do sin.

No man of his own volition cannot seek after Him who has no form therefore no man could understand unless he does the first work and gives us His understanding by faith .



Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God

 

[Depleted]

Love is a broad term with many different flavors. We see in Scripture that even thieves love their friends (Matthew 5:46) and even evil people love their children (Luke 11:11). We even see (1 John 2:15) that it's possible to love the world. These words are all variances of agape -- in other words, they come from the same root but they were modified. It's a flavor of love that's not as potent as the real thing.

Agape in its purest root form always appears in Scripture to describe the love of God. We find it in 1 Corinthians 13, Galatians 5 as a fruit of the Spirit, etc.

When people try to measure God's love by the love they see from humans, they're comparing a modification to the real thing. It's like saying decaf coffee doesn't keep you awake, so therefore you don't believe in real coffee.

This post is like what Edwards said -- makes me have to think about God for a while. Thank you. That's what I like about hanging with the bros.

Interesting factoid hanging around my brain. The Greeks had a lot of words for love -- philos, eros, and agape among them. Agape was the love about gods, but in a society with thousands of flawed gods, it lost most meaning. (Why even think about a god's love, if he/she loved fleetingly?) So, just like Paul pointed to a statue of "the unknown god" to say the Lord is that God, he took the word agape and brought it back into vogue -- except it became about The God.

He really pressed it into service again, didn't he?

 

[Depleted]

So what is the surest sign of regeneration? If 1 John 1 is apparently useless, what sign should we use? It's all well and good to talk in abstract terms about walking in the Spirit, but lots of people with contrary lifestyles are quite sure they are regenerated.

Shhhhh! You're going to get in trouble on here, if you bring up Light. (Been there, done that, got the scars. lol)

I'm reading the Gospel of John, just because I've been studying the OT long enough that I have a need to remember how Jesus fixed the problem. (The problem -- we know what we're supposed to do, but don't always/usually feel like doing that.) Just finished John 2 today, and am stuck on this paragraph:

[FONT=&quot]23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]24 But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]25 and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.[/FONT]

By nature, I'm an optimist. I like to trust people to be who they say they are. I get hurt, a lot, when I discover that what they say, they don't do. But somehow that seems easier to bear than to assume no trust until otherwise proven. I wish I had discernment closer to what Jesus has. It doesn't have to be perfect like his, but it would be nice to know who to trust quickly. After all, John isn't saying the Lord didn't entrust him, or the other apostles. Surely Jesus knew the difference between the flawed apostles who really did follow him even when they screwed up, and those who "believed" without truly believing.

I don't think there are signs for other people, as in, I don't think we can use the signs to judge someone else's walk. I think Edwards was talking about judging ourselves. And the goal is such that we can be assured, if we know, deep inside, we are enjoying the fullness of God. i.e., we don't have to waste most of our life wondering if God is sanctifying us. Instead we can trust him.

 

[RamahDesjardin]

For what it's worth, there were several incidents in the gospels where only Peter, James, and John were allowed to be involved. It's safe to say Jesus did not fully trust even all the disciples.

 

[loveme1]

The natural man is evil and must be born again of the Holy Spirit.

GOD is perfect and just always.

natural man starts to hate his sinful self and desires to be forgiven and changed is the surest sign. Repent and believe.

GOD is righteous and we must humble ourselves and Trust and obey Him always.

we can not judge the Most High who knows all things.. Trust and love always and forever.

 

[dcontroversal]

I agree...we do stumble from time to time. By 24/7 I do not mean 'perfect' but rather 'every day'....which is something trad christians do NOT do. They do not walk with Jesus on the Sabbath or the sunday and that causes a 'break in the relationship IF it even exists at all. God/Jesus do not associate with false teaching.

Amen and I agree with the everyday statement for sure...

 

[pottersclay]

Now working on the wrath of God which is described in the book of Revelation is a different type of wrath than any other. In fact this event is on the behalf of the saints.

 

[Nehemiah6]

For what it's worth, there were several incidents in the gospels where only Peter, James, and John were allowed to be involved. It's safe to say Jesus did not fully trust even all the disciples.

That could be one explanation (and probably not likely except for Judas Iscariot). The other could be that this trio were to provide the necessary leadership to the other apostles and to the Church after the ascension of Christ. So they were being trained for that in advance.

You will note that the Lord went specifically to Peter (who had betrayed Him) after His resurrection, and got Peter to take a good look at His love for His Lord. Then he was told to feed Christ's lambs and sheep. So the next thing you see is that Peter is the one who preaches the Gospel with clarity and power on the Day of Pentecost, and about 3,000 souls are added to the Church. James and John had their own ministries but Peter had already been singled out as the apostle to the Jews, just as Paul had been to the Gentiles.