The Tribulation

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OldSage

Active member
Oct 23, 2020
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#1
The so-called Great Tribulation is a punishment inflicted on the old testament Jews who did not accept Jesus.
It is a period of approximately 2000 years.

Any theology of 'pre' and 'mid' tribulaton is really meaningless,
and 'post' likewise, since in general this is operating under the same
misapprehension.

if we understand Daniel correctly, then we can build an eschatology on a proper foundation

Daniel 12 And at that time [TIME OF THE LORD] shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

From the time there was a nation to the same time, when there was a nation.

I.E. From the time when Judea (and Jerusalem) existed as a nation,
to the time when Judea (and Jerusalem) exist as a nation.
That is to say for the best part of 2000 years.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
15,002
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#2
The so-called Great Tribulation is a punishment inflicted on the old testament Jews who did not accept Jesus. It is a period of approximately 2000 years.
How could the Great Tribulation last for 2,000 years if Jesus said it would need to be shortened for the sake of the elect (from 3 1/2 years by about 5 months according to Daniel)? And it is divine judgment and wrath upon the whole world of the ungodly and wicked, not just the Jews.

However the Tribulation (which precedes the Great Tribulation) is primarily "the time of Jacob's trouble" (or the judgment of Jewry worldwide).
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
27,698
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#3
Regarding the Tribulations spoken of by Jesus, we are living in them NOW. IMO
 

OldSage

Active member
Oct 23, 2020
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#4
How could the Great Tribulation last for 2,000 years if Jesus said it would need to be shortened for the sake of the elect (from 3 1/2 years by about 5 months according to Daniel)? And it is divine judgment and wrath upon the whole world of the ungodly and wicked, not just the Jews.

However the Tribulation (which precedes the Great Tribulation) is primarily "the time of Jacob's trouble" (or the judgment of Jewry worldwide).
It was shortened by 1 year, at the start. This enabled the Church to escape from Jerusalem.
The other bits I am not fully understanding in terms of scriptural basis.
Can you say a bit more ?
 

OldSage

Active member
Oct 23, 2020
958
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#5
To be precise Nehemiah, I'd have to check Josephus and put my thinking cap on.
But from what I remember Cestius Gallus invaded Judea in AD66, which
would have been the appointed time for the events prophesied by Jesus to start:

Matthew 24 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!


But for various reasons his campaign ran aground on the outskirts of Jerusalem
and was put back a year. So things began in AD67 in earnest with Vespasian.
The year of reprieve was critical as it allowed the Church to escape the carnage -
meanwhile the unbelieving Jews read events in the opposite sense, thinking that
they had been saved by divine intervention, (and presumably felt quite cocky at that point
having shooed off the Roman Army)
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
631
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#6
The so-called Great Tribulation is a punishment inflicted on the old testament Jews who did not accept Jesus.
It is a period of approximately 2000 years.

Any theology of 'pre' and 'mid' tribulaton is really meaningless,
and 'post' likewise, since in general this is operating under the same
misapprehension.

if we understand Daniel correctly, then we can build an eschatology on a proper foundation

Daniel 12 And at that time [TIME OF THE LORD] shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

From the time there was a nation to the same time, when there was a nation.

I.E. From the time when Judea (and Jerusalem) existed as a nation,
to the time when Judea (and Jerusalem) exist as a nation.
That is to say for the best part of 2000 years.
So much misunderstanding on all these issues makes me wonder if we study and if we ask God to reveal His wonders unto us, or if we just accept what other men have passed down unto as truths, which in reality are men's truths.

You are on the right track here, but make one small mishap, there are no 2000 years of punishment, IF, we read Ezekiel 37 properly, God stated that Israel would be as Dead Men's Bones (from 70 AD until 1948) so the 70 weeks of punishment were SUSPENDED, because God refused to recognize Israel as a living entity for nigh 2000 years. The 70th week can not begin until the time of the Gentiles have been fulfilled (Rapture). So, it's not like your concept is off base per see, its as if you forget God's own words states there was no Israel in His mind, thus there could be NO BEAST over Israel, thus the Ottoman Empire is not a Beast nor was the British Empire, etc.

Then Nehemiah 66 says God "SHORTENS THE TRIBULATION" but God/Jesus never says no such thing, at least as he and others understand it. I can't understand how people can't get these simple concepts right. God makes the 70th week centered around a 1260 event in the Middle of the Week, but we are supposed to believe God CHANGES His plans and designs, which would late all prophecy, all because people see Jesus saying that He and the Father SHORTENED the coming tribulation period, but they fail to comprehend that God/Jesus SHORTENED IT to the PLANNED 7 YEARS !! God doesn't have to REPLAN ANYTHING. Jesus is telling us that the TROUBLES that will come were PREPLANNED to only be allowed to last 7 years via the 70th week and 3.5 years via the Greatest ever Troubles on this earth. God doesn't shorten the coming 3.5 years of troubles, he SHORTENED what the Anti-Christ would have pulled off on this earth if God/Jesus had not decided with PRE KNOWLEDGE to end those troubles after 3.5 years, and thus announced via PROPHECY that the Beast would rule 1260 days. That 1270 days IS THE SHORTENED PERIOD. Doesn't Jesus kill him? Well is not that Gid shortening the life span of the Beast to 1260 days? These things are not that complex tbh. God can not lie, so He says the est rules for 1260 days and Jesus says the Tribulation will be SHORTENED, and people actually can not grasp that Jesus is saying from a NATURAL LIFE SPAN top only 1260 days !!

This is how we go down rabbit holes, the above is how the Jim Jones and David Koresh's of the world get twisted, it always starts out with one wrong concept. And what's sad, when I explain this unto people their pride is more important than what the bible actually says in many cases. They refuse to acknowledge the obvious. I can't be wrong. Well, we are all wrong many times, God has corrected me 1000's of times, if I knew it all as a youth I wouldn't;t need to be saved from myself and my sins. It's OK to be wrong, it gives God a chance to teach us. If first graders acted like grownups when te spelled cat wrong, they would just quit when told Cat is not spelled with a K.

The 70 weeks are designed to get Israel to repent, IF, they had repented 2000 years ago I am convinced Jesus would have set the Kingdom up in 70 AD and saved them from the Romans at that time, but God knowing all knew they would not repent. So, God turned His back on Israel for nigh 2000 years, allowing the YOUNGER Gentiles to gain the mantle just like He did Jacob over Esau.

In the Gospel of John, Jesus tells us ALL TIME on this earth is tribulation. So, the Church Age is Tribulation, the 70th week is tribulation, and the 3.5 years is the GREATEST EVER TRIBULATIONS SEEN. This is why those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 came out of the GREAT TRIBULATION, (2000 some odd year Church Age Period), because God can describe more than one thing s GREAT, it is us who try to limit His vocabulary. There can be both a greatest in severity and in length, as in 2000 is GREATER than 7 or 3.5 bit we demand it has to only be the 3.5 years that are the most severe. This is why many get the Rapture wrong, they see thee who came out of the Great Tribulation, and do not understand they came out of the Church Age period. The facts are, we are told in no uncertain terms, these can not have come out of the Church Age, yet we just say, OH WELL, we will let that contradictory statement just pass. NO, we can't allow any contradictory statement to stand anymore.

Those in the 70t week do not get Raptured to Heaven, Jesus reveals this unto us in TWO WAYS. The 5th Seal and in Rev. 20:4. Jesus SPECIFICALLY STATES that those under the Altar at the 5th Seal will not gain vengeance until ALL of their brothers have been killed in LIKE MANNER as they have [by the Anti-Christ over his 42-month rule]. And in REv. 20:4 we CLEARLY SEE that those who refused the Mark of the Beast are ALL JUDGED here in Rev. 20:4 which is AFTER the Second Coming !! So, scripture specifically tells us those seen in REv. 7:9-17 can not be from the 70th week, yet we just go on believing it's them anyway !! (Not me of course, I know those are from the GREAT CHURCH AGE TRIBULATION, where millions of our brothers were indeed slaughtered for the name of Jesus)

You have the timing points correct, but your analysis of Israel's punishment is off a wee bit. But your timing is spot on.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
29,792
3,287
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#7
if we understand Daniel correctly, then we can build an eschatology on a proper foundation...
From the time there was a nation to the same time, when there was a nation.
How could the Great Tribulation last for 2,000 years if Jesus said it would need to be shortened for the sake of the elect (from 3 1/2 years by about 5 months according to Daniel)?
You have the timing points correct, but your analysis of Israel's punishment is off a wee bit. But your timing is spot on.
Oh wonderful, just wondeful. :rolleyes:
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
10,853
2,203
113
#8
The so-called Great Tribulation is a punishment inflicted on the old testament Jews who did not accept Jesus.
It is a period of approximately 2000 years.

Any theology of 'pre' and 'mid' tribulaton is really meaningless,
and 'post' likewise, since in general this is operating under the same
misapprehension.

if we understand Daniel correctly, then we can build an eschatology on a proper foundation

Daniel 12 And at that time [TIME OF THE LORD] shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

From the time there was a nation to the same time, when there was a nation.

I.E. From the time when Judea (and Jerusalem) existed as a nation,
to the time when Judea (and Jerusalem) exist as a nation.
That is to say for the best part of 2000 years.
Hello OldSage,

First of all, the tribulation is not 2000 years in length.

And second, Daniel 12:1 is saying the same thing that Jesus quoted in Matt.24:21 regarding the great tribulation period:

Compare the two verses below:

Daniel 12:1
"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

Matthew 24:21
"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. "

Both verses are basically saying that there is coming a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again.

This time of great tribulation is identified by the Lord in Matthew 24:15-22, as beginning with the setting up of the abomination that causes the desolation. Daniel 9:27 gives provides the time line for the tribulation/great tribulation, which begins when that ruler, the antichrist establishes his covenant with Israel for a one seven year period, which is divided into two 3 1/2 year periods. During the first 3 1/2 year period Israel will have built her temple and will once again be making sacrifices and offerings according to the law. In the middle of that seven years the abomination will be set up in the holy place within the temple which begins the last 3 1/2 years and which is the great tribulation. This is the time that Paul was speaking of in 2 Thessalonians 2 when the man of lawlessness/antichrist will stand in the temple proclaiming himself to be God or anything that is called god or worshiped.

The tribulation period, will be the fulfillment of the seventy seven year periods (490 years) that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem as described in Daniel 9:24. Sixty nine of the seven year periods were fulfilled when the Messiah was cut off, Christ crucified. That last seven years of tribulation/great tribulation is what will follow after the church is gathered. Therefore, it cannot be 2000 years in length.
 

OldSage

Active member
Oct 23, 2020
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#9
Well let's examine your statement Ahwatukee..

This time of great tribulation is identified by the Lord in Matthew 24:15-22
No. Jesus points the reader to Daniel. Unless you understand Daniel, you are clutching at straws.

Matthew 24: 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

The Abomination of Desolation and the period of great suffering (tribulation) are a unity, and can only really be understood properly from Daniel. (Yes Luke implies that it is a long time, the time of the nations, but only a full understanding of Daniel
can explain it in its entirety). Now clearly Daniel is somewhat complex and is sealed (encrypted), but as we approach the
end of this 2000 year period, it becomes more obvious what Daniel means.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#10
The Abomination of Desolation and the period of great suffering (tribulation) are a unity
I agree but only in the following way... the lengthy time period is referred to in Dan9:26c as "DESOLATIONS [PLURAL] are determined";

...whereas the 3.5 yr time period [i.e. 2nd half of the "7 yrs"] commences only at the Matt24:15 / Dan12:11 "A[singular]oD[singular]" ("A of DESOLATION [SINGULAR]" which is one aspect of the "DESOLATIONS [PLURAL]" that Dan9:26c speaks of)... where Matt24:15,21 says, "[when...] THEN shall be GREAT tribulation" (i.e. at the AOD [SINGULAR; Dan12:11] point, and forward)
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
631
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#11
Well let's examine your statement Ahwatukee..



No. Jesus points the reader to Daniel. Unless you understand Daniel, you are clutching at straws.

Matthew 24: 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

The Abomination of Desolation and the period of great suffering (tribulation) are a unity, and can only really be understood properly from Daniel. (Yes Luke implies that it is a long time, the time of the nations, but only a full understanding of Daniel
can explain it in its entirety). Now clearly Daniel is somewhat complex and is sealed (encrypted), but as we approach the
end of this 2000 year period, it becomes more obvious what Daniel means.
Jesus is the Man in Linen in Daniel 12, so Jesus is just pointing to his own understandings he pointed out in Daniel. Hes not really quoting Daniel, he's quoting himself from Daniel.

The 1260 is the key to all end-time Eschatology, which is why I agree with your points. You could have thrown in Rev. 12 also, where Micheal actually stands up. You have the basic points which need to be pondered figured out. Most people do not understand that Daniel 12, Matt. 24:15-21 and Rev. 12 all testify about the same timeline.
 

OldSage

Active member
Oct 23, 2020
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#12
I agree but only in the following way... the lengthy time period is referred to in Dan9:26c as "DESOLATIONS [PLURAL] are determined";

...whereas the 3.5 yr time period [i.e. 2nd half of the "7 yrs"] commences only at the Matt24:15 / Dan12:11 "A[singular]oD[singular]" ("A of DESOLATION [SINGULAR]" which is one aspect of the "DESOLATIONS [PLURAL]" that Dan9:26c speaks of)... where Matt24:15,21 says, "[when...] THEN shall be GREAT tribulation" (i.e. at the AOD [SINGULAR; Dan12:11] point, and forward)
Well which AoD do you think Jesus is referring to?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#13
Well which AoD do you think Jesus is referring to?
The one in Daniel 12:11 (like I said)... "abomination of desolation [singular / singular] SET UP [H5414]" (with day-amounts provided also in the text); NOT the one in Dan11:31 about Antiochus Epiphanes (though he was a "type") [the other singular / singular "spoken of by Daniel the prophet... as Jesus put it];

...and so the one in Dan12:11 is the "far-future" thing, when only the latter half of the far-future 7-yr Trib years are in existence, that is what the "[Therefore when...] THEN shall be GREAT tribulation" Jesus is saying in Matt24:15,21
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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#14
^ ... [whereas Dan9:26b's "desolaTIONS [PLURAL] are determined" includes:



--the 70ad "desolaTION [singular] thereof [of Jerusalem]" Luke 21:23,20 and context; AND

--the "your house... LEFT to you DESOLATE... UNTIL" Matt23:38-39 (and parallels); AND

--"the AOD [singular]" at MID-trib (far-future) Matt24:15,21
 

OldSage

Active member
Oct 23, 2020
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#15
The one in Daniel 12:11 (like I said)... "abomination of desolation [singular / singular] SET UP [H5414]" (with day-amounts provided also in the text); NOT the one in Dan11:31 about Antiochus Epiphanes (though he was a "type") [the other singular / singular "spoken of by Daniel the prophet... as Jesus put it];

...and so the one in Dan12:11 is the "far-future" thing, when only the latter half of the far-future 7-yr Trib years are in existence, that is what the "[Therefore when...] THEN shall be GREAT tribulation" Jesus is saying in Matt24:15,21
Ok. it's interesting - the modern versions have a singular in Daniel 9. e.g.

and in their place[f] shall be an abomination that desolates
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#16
Now clearly Daniel is somewhat complex and is sealed (encrypted), but as we approach the end of this 2000 year period, it becomes more obvious what Daniel means.
2000 years has nothing to do with this subject. It could be 2500 or 3,000 years. Yes the Tribulation (NOT Great Tribulation) and the 3 1/2 years reign of the Antichrist run together, and the Abomination of Desolation is set up at that point. This is exactly what Christ had referred to, therefore there must also be a temple standing in Jerusalem in order to have a "Holy Place", and in order for the Man of Sin to sit in that temple and declare that he is God.

The Orthodox Jews have already made extensive plans for this third temple, which will be there in the future. Chances are it could be there within the next 10 years, since the COVID tyranny has prepped people to unquestioningly accept governmental tyranny in the name of protecting your health and wellbeing. And now with nanoparticles being injected into people, the reality of the Mark of the Beast has become a technological reality. These bogus vaccines are simply precursors (while they decimate populations).
 

OldSage

Active member
Oct 23, 2020
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#17
2000 years has nothing to do with this subject. It could be 2500 or 3,000 years. Yes the Tribulation (NOT Great Tribulation) and the 3 1/2 years reign of the Antichrist run together, and the Abomination of Desolation is set up at that point. This is exactly what Christ had referred to, therefore there must also be a temple standing in Jerusalem in order to have a "Holy Place", and in order for the Man of Sin to sit in that temple and declare that he is God.

The Orthodox Jews have already made extensive plans for this third temple, which will be there in the future. Chances are it could be there within the next 10 years, since the COVID tyranny has prepped people to unquestioningly accept governmental tyranny in the name of protecting your health and wellbeing. And now with nanoparticles being injected into people, the reality of the Mark of the Beast has become a technological reality. These bogus vaccines are simply precursors (while they decimate populations).
On present events sure - lots going on.
On the Abomination of Desolation referred to by Jesus in Daniel,
the AoD in Daniel 9 is unquestionably first century.

There may be further information in Daniel 12, but personally I've not seen it.
[But when we discuss these matters one is always open to seeing something one hasn't seen or understood before]

The time of 2000 years is very relevant and has everything to do with this subject for a variety of scriptural reasons.
 

OldSage

Active member
Oct 23, 2020
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#18
You make lots of points Rondommon

You are on the right track here, but make one small mishap, there are no 2000 years of punishment, IF, we read Ezekiel 37 properly, God stated that Israel would be as Dead Men's Bones (from 70 AD until 1948) so the 70 weeks of punishment were SUSPENDED, because God refused to recognize Israel as a living entity for nigh 2000 years. The 70th week can not begin until the time of the Gentiles have been fulfilled (Rapture). So, it's not like your concept is off base per see, its as if you forget God's own words states there was no Israel in His mind, thus there could be NO BEAST over Israel, thus the Ottoman Empire is not a Beast nor was the British Empire, etc.
Ok here I just think we agree to disagree.
I think Israel was rebirthed when the exiles came back from Babylon
and the 2nd temple period began, and obviously I totally disagree on
the 70th week.

Re the beasts. Ok it's interesting to think about.
I suppose the RCC has (along with the Roman empire)
controlled Israel in exile.
 

OldSage

Active member
Oct 23, 2020
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#19
^ ... [whereas Dan9:26b's "desolaTIONS [PLURAL] are determined" includes:



--the 70ad "desolaTION [singular] thereof [of Jerusalem]" Luke 21:23,20 and context; AND

--the "your house... LEFT to you DESOLATE... UNTIL" Matt23:38-39 (and parallels); AND

--"the AOD [singular]" at MID-trib (far-future) Matt24:15,21
I am still unclear what you think the AoD in Dan 12 refers to.
 

AandW

Active member
Jun 9, 2021
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#20
Is this a Preterist View and then a claim since the Ascension of Christ we've been living in the Mill Reign?