The works of the law of righteousness vs works by faith to justification

[eternally-gratefull]

Are works of the law the same as works of faith? And if not, then what's the difference?

depends.

The works of the law is what you call someone who does them to be saved by doing them

the works of faith are things which are done (which may include works of law. but ALL works done for Christ) Because we have faith and given the power to be sons of God and do them..

One is done to earn something, One is done because you were given something..

Huge difference.

 

[homwardbound]

in that passage we probably should clarify WHOM or WHAT people have faith in.

Its not just belief in what they think will happen in the future.

Its a grounded belief/faith in GOD and His will and His promises and acting in Faith for His glory.

The focus shouldn't be the action but God who promotes the actions.

.....I've found being vague tends to lead to misunderstanding about what is actually being said or discussed.

I see you sure are growing into maturity as is God's will for all that believe

 

[homwardbound]

So with all that said, the truth on any topicis nto determined by a tunnel vision view of one passage, all the scriptures must be considered. So, whether you want to or not my friend, the way to determine what is said is according to Isa 28...

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

You must gather all the info on a subject.

So doesn't it all boil down to this very one thing LOVE God's type (1 cor 13:4-13) to love all as God loves us and showed this via the cross of christ, I think so
God's love spread abroad in ones heart is the fulfillment of all Law is it not? precept upon precept yes? All comes down to our savior Jesus Christ the righteous one for us all
Romans 10:4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
2 Timothy 2:10Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Peter 2:20For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

If we go after righteousness through our own works, and not by faith in Christ who is the way, the truth and the loife no one gets to the Father except through Christ. All Scripture has pointed to Christ from the begining of this world, time and space.

 

[john832]

depends.

The works of the law is what you call someone who does them to be saved by doing them

And no one here that I know of has said that they believe that perfect obedience can save them. What has been siad is a rebellious, disobedient person will nto be saved.

the works of faith are things which are done (which may include works of law. but ALL works done for Christ) Because we have faith and given the power to be sons of God and do them..

One is done to earn something, One is done because you were given something..

Huge difference.

There is a third point you didn't touch on, wilfull disobedience (wilfull sin) causes a loss of salvation...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

In every case it is a matter of attitude. No one can obey perfectly, but we can obey with a perfect heart. The desire to do everything just the way God wants it done. This is what God is seeking. One who disregards obedience and thinks it is a small matter may well be in for a surprise and there will be no party associated with said surpirse.

 

[john832]

So doesn't it all boil down to this very one thing LOVE God's type (1 cor 13:4-13) to love all as God loves us and showed this via the cross of christ, I think so
God's love spread abroad in ones heart is the fulfillment of all Law is it not? precept upon precept yes? All comes down to our savior Jesus Christ the righteous one for us all
Romans 10:4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
2 Timothy 2:10Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Peter 2:20For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

If we go after righteousness through our own works, and not by faith in Christ who is the way, the truth and the loife no one gets to the Father except through Christ. All Scripture has pointed to Christ from the begining of this world, time and space.

I don't think anyone here has ever suggested that we are trying to go after righteousness with our own works. Here is our own works...

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

And the margin renders filthy as menstruous. No one is saying that our works earn us anything. Our obedience is from our desire to please God and do as He says. He gives His wonderful gift of salvation to those who desire to do what He says...

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And no one here that I know of has said that they believe that perfect obedience can save them. What has been siad is a rebellious, disobedient person will nto be saved.

do you think they could have ever been saved??

of course he is not saved, he never had faith to begin with, and his rebelion proves he never repented.

and sorry to disagree with you. But many in not so many words say obedience is essential for salvation..

There is a third point you didn't touch on, wilfull disobedience (wilfull sin) causes a loss of salvation...

lol.. so lets excuse our sin, by saying when we sin we did not do it willfully.. while others know what they are doing.. I thought you said you did not excuse your sin??

sorry (I did not mean to do it) is no excuse for sin.. if you sin, you meant to do it.. period!

if willfull disobedience causes us to lose salvation.. then NO ONE WILL EVER BE SAVED, because we all willfully disobay, probably on a daily basis, to say you do not do this, is to say John is a liar.. how could you go to christ, or know you sinnedl, if you did not willfully disobey.. this is just a fancy way to excuse your sin!

no I did not forget his point. James said if we break even the least of the law. we are guilty of breaking the whole law. Face it,, if you say a little white lie. In Gods eyes, your as guilty as a murderer or adulterer..

I know. you do not want to hear this, but it is true!

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

so the same author who in the same passage says God has PERFECTED us FOREVER, who have and are being sanctified (maturing in christ) says this is not true, and he did not perfect us forever, but only unless we willfully sin??

I think Not. You make the author contradict himself. whats up with you people picking little snippets out of passages to support your own belief system?

There is a group of people the author is talking to here. And it is NOT those who were perfected forever!! IF IT IS. tHE AUTHOR LIED AND CONTRADICTED HIMSELF! But I guess it is ok for you to have a contradictory bible..

In every case it is a matter of attitude. No one can obey perfectly, but we can obey with a perfect heart. The desire to do everything just the way God wants it done. This is what God is seeking. One who disregards obedience and thinks it is a small matter may well be in for a surprise and there will be no party associated with said surpirse.

what God is looking for is people like Paul in romans 7.. No one I know who has been born of God is minus this attitude. The only people I see who sin willfully and rebelliously,, Like who are you (or God) to say I can not do something. Have proven they are not born of God by eventually leaving the church and going back to their own vomit. because they can not handle the word,, which tells them they are in the wrong. and their lack of repentance is shown..

These people do not lose salvation. that would make salvation by the works of the law. These people NEVER HAD IT!

 

[RedTent]

With our Hellenistic way of thinking, we often use it to not understand God. We say "if this is so then that is so, or if this is so then that must not be so". God gives us absolutes, God gives us facts of His Kingdom. Don't twist them up.

It is a fact that we are to have faith in Him, and in all His attributes.
If is a fact that we are to obey so we are free from sin.
It is a fact that after we try to not sin, but still sin, God sent Christ so we can be forgiven.
It is a fact that our cleansing, our forgiveness is part of God's holiness, not part of our work.

So, use your minds to absorb and live by God's ways, accept them in faith. Don't try to use your fleshly mind to say "but God, you said it was faith that saved me so my Hellenistic mind says that means works isn't part of it". Accept what God says in faith, he said to work.

 

[zone]

So with all that said, the truth on any topicis nto determined by a tunnel vision view of one passage, all the scriptures must be considered. So, whether you want to or not my friend, the way to determine what is said is according to Isa 28...

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

You must gather all the info on a subject.

so, where's your temple and turtle doves?

 

[zone]

There is a third point you didn't touch on, wilfull disobedience (wilfull sin) causes a loss of salvation...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

year after year
thread after thread people who claim they obey perfectly; are now perfect; have a pure heart; etc etc misuse that passage.
there's no Old Covenant; no Temple system to return to.

In every case it is a matter of attitude. No one can obey perfectly, but we can obey with a perfect heart. The desire to do everything just the way God wants it done. This is what God is seeking. One who disregards obedience and thinks it is a small matter may well be in for a surprise and there will be no party associated with said surpirse.

a perfect heart would obey everything perfectly.
which is it?

and what's with attaching the accusation of antinomianism to everybody else at the end of your build-up to how you obey out of a pure heart.

this sounds familiar.

 

[zone]

With our Hellenistic way of thinking, we often use it to not understand God. We say "if this is so then that is so, or if this is so then that must not be so". God gives us absolutes, God gives us facts of His Kingdom. Don't twist them up.

It is a fact that we are to have faith in Him, and in all His attributes.
If is a fact that we are to obey so we are free from sin.
It is a fact that after we try to not sin, but still sin, God sent Christ so we can be forgiven.
It is a fact that our cleansing, our forgiveness is part of God's holiness, not part of our work.

So, use your minds to absorb and live by God's ways, accept them in faith. Don't try to use your fleshly mind to say "but God, you said it was faith that saved me so my Hellenistic mind says that means works isn't part of it". Accept what God says in faith, he said to work.

hellenistic?

God hates greeks?
greek jews?
hellenistic jews?
did He plan to record the NT in GREEK?

did He make a mistake?

 

[Ariel82]

I wonder if I should even bother to answer.

you just like to jump around scripture and then tell me that my timing is off...........

Exo 19:10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,
Exo 19:11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,

Exo 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
Exo 20:20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
Exo 20:21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
Exo 20:22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

The Ten Commandments were not written by Moses in the Book of the Law, God spoke directly to the people.

There is a difference between the Law of Moses and the Ten Commandments.

there is a difference but Galatians is referring to both...

You chronology is off a little my friend...

Now, let's see how that works...

Exo 19:1 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.

OK, that would be the third month of the Hebrew calendar.

why are you jumping to Exodus 40? I stopped at the golden calf story in Exodus 32....

Exo 40:2 On the first day of the first month shalt thou set up the tabernacle of the tent of the congregation.

First day fof the first month, this is at least nine months later, it could be ten. Depends on whether it was an intercalary year or not. I have not researched that.

perhaps you should reread what I've posted. I don't think you've really understood the points I was making because nothing you have posted relates.

Now where were sacrifices offered?

Lev 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
Lev 1:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
Lev 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

Exo 29:35 And thus shalt thou do unto Aaron, and to his sons, according to all things which I have commanded thee: seven days shalt thou consecrate them.
Exo 29:36 And thou shalt offer every day a bullock for a sin offering for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it.
Exo 29:37 Seven days thou shalt make an atonement for the altar, and sanctify it; and it shall be an altar most holy: whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy.
Exo 29:38 Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually.

Lev 6:30 And no sin offering, whereof any of the blood is brought into the tabernacle of the congregation to reconcile withal in the holy place, shall be eaten: it shall be burnt in the fire.

Lev 12:6 And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest:

Sin offerings and sacrifices could only offered on the altar and had to be brought to the door of the tabernacle. According to Ex 40, the Tabernacle was erected 9 -10 months after Mount Sinai.

ok... but the commandments for the sacrifice were given BEFORE the Golden calf story. therefore you logic that the sacrifices were not part of the covenant in Sinai is void.

Which is exactly what God inspired Jeremiah to write...

Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

Burnt offerings and sacrifices could not be offered by the Priests for the people until almost a year after the Law was given.

I think you misunderstand the words of the prophet Jeremiah as well.

God wanted to have a covenant people who followed only HIM but the people rejected that and that is why the covenant at the mount of Sinai was given.

The covenant God wants with His people is not found in the Law of Moses or the Ten Commandments but when people have been BORN Again in the Holy Spirit.

Jeremiah makes reference to this:

[h=3]Jeremiah 31:31-34[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]A New Covenant[/h][SUP]31 [/SUP]“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— [SUP]32 [/SUP]not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[SUP][a][/SUP] says the Lord. [SUP]33 [/SUP]But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [SUP]34 [/SUP]No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”



Hebrews 8
[h=3][/h][SUP]7 [/SUP]For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— [SUP]9 [/SUP]not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [SUP]11 [/SUP]None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds[SUP][b][/SUP] I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Ariel82]

wow.....i'm just going to give it to God.........

2 Corinthians 3
2 Corinthians 3:6-8

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]6 [/SUP]who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;[SUP][a][/SUP] for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, [SUP]8 [/SUP]how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

the LAW of Moses/ Ten commandments was referred to as the "ministry of death" The first covenant at Sinai that was made obsolete by Christ death on the Christ was replaced by the NEW Covenant and the terms are something all Christians should study and learn. They are NOT those laid out in the OLD covenant but something MORE.

I would suggest you study that precept upon precept, line upon line.

 

[loveme1]

With our Hellenistic way of thinking, we often use it to not understand God. We say "if this is so then that is so, or if this is so then that must not be so". God gives us absolutes, God gives us facts of His Kingdom. Don't twist them up.

It is a fact that we are to have faith in Him, and in all His attributes.
If is a fact that we are to obey so we are free from sin.
It is a fact that after we try to not sin, but still sin, God sent Christ so we can be forgiven.
It is a fact that our cleansing, our forgiveness is part of God's holiness, not part of our work.

So, use your minds to absorb and live by God's ways, accept them in faith. Don't try to use your fleshly mind to say "but God, you said it was faith that saved me so my Hellenistic mind says that means works isn't part of it". Accept what God says in faith, he said to work.

True, when push comes to shove nothing else matters accept what GOD wants of us and for us in all things.

We are told to seek with our heart and we will find.

 

[RedTent]

hellenistic?

God hates greeks?
greek jews?
hellenistic jews?
did He plan to record the NT in GREEK?

did He make a mistake?

What does Hellenistic thinking have to do with God hating? Hellenistic thinking results in many of our inventions, is that bad? Where are your "mistakes"? What about the Hebrew way of thinking? Do you have something against that too? My goodness!!!

 

[zone]

What does Hellenistic thinking have to do with God hating? Hellenistic thinking results in many of our inventions, is that bad? Where are your "mistakes"? What about the Hebrew way of thinking? Do you have something against that too? My goodness!!!

With our Hellenistic way of thinking, we often use it to not understand God. We say "if this is so then that is so, or if this is so then that must not be so". God gives us absolutes, God gives us facts of His Kingdom. Don't twist them up.

It is a fact that we are to have faith in Him, and in all His attributes.
If is a fact that we are to obey so we are free from sin.
It is a fact that after we try to not sin, but still sin, God sent Christ so we can be forgiven.
It is a fact that our cleansing, our forgiveness is part of God's holiness, not part of our work.

So, use your minds to absorb and live by God's ways, accept them in faith. Don't try to use your fleshly mind to say "but God, you said it was faith that saved me so my Hellenistic mind says that means works isn't part of it". Accept what God says in faith, he said to work.

whatever redtent.

faith + works saves you.
you're pleasing to God because you perform some Jewish rituals.
i get it.

(tbmk -you still have not specifically said what those rituals (works) are - are they from Moses? or Rabbinic Judaism?)

hmmmm?

 

[RedTent]

whatever redtent.

faith + works saves you.
you're pleasing to God because you perform some Jewish rituals.
i get it.

(tbmk -you still have not specifically said what those rituals (works) are - are they from Moses? or Rabbinic Judaism?)

hmmmm?

No Zone, you do not get it at all! Works. Rituals. What pleases God. Grace. God's Holiness. Forgiveness. Judaism. Hebrews. Israel. I do not think you can understand how all this fits together, God's ways. I have watched many try to explain it to you, all have given up. I certainly am not going to try any more. Some have even left cc with frustration after working with you, some wonderful people who tried to reason with you, not fight back. You are an excellent fighter!

 

[Kaleb2]

No..the works of the law is pertaining to the sacrificial law of the old covenant or levitical covenant in which one would have to sacrifice an animal for sins. This was the conflict between the believers of Christ which were of the Jews or Nation of Judah and the Israelites that had taken upon them the customs of the other nations or heathen (Ephesians 2:11-12). In the counsel spoken of in Acts 15 Peter and James are telling those that were not keeping the old sacrificial law that it was not needful for them to offer sacrifices to the Priest, however it was still needful for the Jews or those Israelites that were raised in the old covenant to keep the sacrificial law since it had not been fully abolished yet.
The Works of Faith simply refers to keeping the Laws in the belief that Christ gave the Perfect atonement for whole nation not just the Jews or Judah but also Israel (Southern and Northern Kingdoms of Israel). Keep in mind the split of the 12 tribes after Solomon (see 1 King 11:31-36).

 

[Kaleb2]

As a matter of fact he did plan to: Isaiah 28:11- "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people" ..also 1 Corinthians 14:21 -"In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people: and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord."

 

[GreenNnice]

The Holy Spirit is our Helper, He will show us God's laws.

Pretty simple really. Love God and Love others as ourself. Upon these TWO laws, ALL the other laws hinge/hang emanate from being. This is to say there is great power in the Holy Spirit, for God is Love, His Spirit is Love, and, His Spirit is in us, who comforts us, advocates things to us, helps us, and , is our understanding of ALL His ways for us in our lives.

So, the works of the law of righteousness are just that, laws that make us right with God, we are right with God by obeying His voice, listening to His Word, following His commandments set before us, and, we do that how? By works of faith

 

[Kaleb2]

whatever redtent.

faith + works saves you.
you're pleasing to God because you perform some Jewish rituals.
i get it.



(tbmk -you still have not specifically said what those rituals (works) are - are they from Moses? or Rabbinic Judaism?)

hmmmm?

Rabbinic Judaism?? There is only one Rabbi. First of all the Laws only pertain to the nation of Israel (Psalms 147:19-20) & (Amos 3:1-3). Second, the True people of the Bible are those that fit the curse laid upon them for disobedience. (Deut 28:15-68). Hosea 3:4 tells us that the real Israel will not have a leader or a nation until the return of the Messiah. You should look no further than the most persecuted people on Earth if your looking for the children of Israel. They are the children of the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade, Sub-saharian Slave Trade, etc. The so-called Blacks of the Americas.
Revelations 1:15 “Andhis feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice asthe sound of many waters.” The skincolor of Christ was as the color of brass and the color of brass is brown. YetJohn stated that it is as brass burned in a furnace. If you putanything in a furnace to burn, it will get blackened, therefore the skin colorof Christ was very dark.