The written word: Could we survive as Christians without it?

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maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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#61
That you admit you will attack me for not abiding in your thoughts is appreciated. I consider myself forewarned of and from someone who intends attack due to pride and self centered hubris.
I am not here to feed that.

I stated the exact opposite.


post #59
"So, if you have some different views on it than me, I'm certainly not going to attack you for that."



We all really need to relax.

.
..
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
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#62
Hello again ForestGreenCook, this treatise of the Apostle Paul's (Romans 1:18-3:23) concerns/describes ~unbelieving~ Jews & Gentiles, not true believers. It teaches that ALL of us, while we are still in our natural/fallen state, are under 1. sin and 2. the wrath of God (which are the two things, in particular, that Jesus saves us from, IOW, from sin in this life, and from the Father's wrath, judgment and condemnation in the age to come).

"Believers" are no longer under the wrath of God, nor do we suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness .. Romans 1:18 (nor are any of us still under sin .. Romans 3:9 [see below], rather, we are under grace :)).

True believers have been ~changed~ by God. We are all given a new heart and a new spirit, the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the mind of Christ. He regenerates us/makes us alive (spiritually), causes us to be born again and makes us His workmanship/masterpiece, as wholly new creatures in Christ .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3, 5:24; 1 Corinthians 2:12-16; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:4-5, 8-10.

He also continues His mighty work in us throughout our lives, to sanctify us and to preserve us in the faith (to see us safely through this life to be with Him in Glory .. Philippians 1:6, 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25), because we were given and have therefore come into possession of, "eternal life", and that from the moment that we first believed .. John 3:18, 5:24; Romans 8:1.

If a list like this one is descriptive (even in small part) of someone who claims to be a Christian......................

Romans 1
29 filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

.............................then their ~claim~ should not be considered to be anything more than that (because such a person has never known God/has never been born again .. cf Matthew 7:22-23; 1 John 2:19).

As Paul said to the Christians in Corinth (concerning his description of those who will ~not~ inherit eternal life .. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10), "such ~WERE~ some of you" .. 1 Corinthians 6:11.

~Deut
p.s. - here is another one of the Apostle Paul's descriptions of all who are still 'outside' of Christ.

Romans 3
9 Both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
.
Hi @ForestGreenCook, one final point that I should have mentioned in my last post to you (since you mentioned 1 Corinthians 2:14 in your last post to me) is this:

1 Corinthians 2:14 makes it clear that non-Christians can neither accept nor understand the spiritual things of God, that the things of God are nothing more than foolishness to them ... but it ~never~ says that all non-Christians are "fools", who suppress the truth of God by claiming that there is no God .. Psalm 14:1; Romans 1:18.

There are only a handful among us who are atheists and/or agnostics. The VAST majority of non-Christians believe that God (or a god) exists (just like I did for the 1st 30 years of my life, before I finally became a Christian), but they neither believe in Him nor believe Him, which sadly, may include the majority of those who "claim" to be Christians, as well (as it appears that many who stand will stand in the Judgement at the Great White Throne thought they were Christians .. but the Lord will tell them plainly, "I ~never~ knew you"!

Frightening stuff, yes :oops:

~Deut

Matthew 7
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I ~never~ knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,891
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#63
I want to clear up the misunderstanding that may think I said all things that exist are God. No, that was not my intention. I did not intend it to be understood that everything is God.
What I said was:

No, the bible teaches that God is part of his creation. As the two passages I shared demonstrate.
When God is the source of all things and from God all things are made and there is no thing made without God, then all things created are created of and from God. Therefore God is part of all his creation.
To think otherwise is to imagine there is something not God that exists in all that is created by God.


That is to say, God's essence is that which can be found in all of creation. Which is why I later added the human parentage metaphor to communicate what I meant.

I went looking for a resource , Biblical resource, that may assist in understanding that is also supported by God's word. I think this may suffice.

A Plain Description of the Essence and Attributes of God, Out of the Holy Scripture, So Far as Every Christian must Competently Know, and Necessarily Believe, that Will be Saves.
Although no creature can define what God is, because he is incomprehensible (Psal. cxliii.3) and dwelling in inaccessible light (1 Tim. vi.16); yet it has pleased his majesty to reveal himself to us in his word, so far as our weak capacity can best conceive him. Thus:
God is that one spiritual and infinitely perfect essence, whose being is of himself eternally (Deut. i.4; iv.35; xxxii.39; vi.4; Isa. xlv.5-8; 1 Cor. viii.4; Eph. iv.5, 6; 1 Tim. ii.5; John iv.24; 2 Cor. iii.17; 1 Kings viii.17; Psal. cxlvii.5; Deut. xxxii.4; Exod. iii.14; 1 Cor. viii.6; Acts xvii.25; Rom. xi.36.)

In the Divine Essence we are to consider two things: First, The diverse manner of being therein; secondly, The attributes thereof.

The diverse manner of being therein, are called Persons (Heb. i.3.)

A person is a distinct subsistence of the whole Godhead (John i.1; v.31, 37; xiv.16; Col. ii.9; John xiv.9.)

The article continues @ https://biblehub.com/library/bayly/the_practice_of_piety/a_plain_description_of_the.htm
Ok, I see what you're saying now.
I think wording it as God is "part of" His creation is misrepresenting the point you're making. It is extremely hard to put the above verses into a few words and do it justice. They are forced to expound it in a whole giant credo because our words almost never give God justice unless it's a direct quote from the Bible. (And that's why I don't like theology...) In any case, thank you for the patience to explain.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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#64
Ok, I see what you're saying now.
I think wording it as God is "part of" His creation is misrepresenting the point you're making. It is extremely hard to put the above verses into a few words and do it justice. They are forced to expound it in a whole giant credo because our words almost never give God justice unless it's a direct quote from the Bible. (And that's why I don't like theology...) In any case, thank you for the patience to explain.
I think when God's essence is within his creation that that makes God's essence as part of his creation.
I was happy to help you understand my point. You were very gracious in seeking out clarification. I thank you for that.
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
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#65
God can be nothing but part of his creation when all things are created of and by the creator.
Hi Whispered, the Bible tell us that space/time was created/was called into existence ex nihilo ~by~the Creator, but where does it ever tell us that the Creation was made ~of~ the Creator :unsure: That, again, is the core belief of Pantheism, not Christianity.

Thanks!

~Deut

John 1
3 All things came into being ~by~ Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
5,567
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#66
How Everything Gets So Confusing, and What To Do:


First of all, to ForestGreenCook... It's all good.

No worries.
We're all going to have misunderstandings.
And all those communication mishaps I talked about... I know all about them because I do them too, lol.
:)


Why use external analogies, or stories, in a theology discussion?

Sometimes I use external analogies on purpose.
I go outside of scripture, and just use simple analogies and stories.
Why?
I do it because humans are kind of weird, lol.

We humans do some odd things.
Everyone here probably has perfectly good "common sense" about most normal things in life.
Most Christians do.
But a weird thing happens when all of these sensible people discuss theology.

Because theology is so vast, and infinite, and deals with realities so far beyond us... we can be so overwhelmed by the vastness of these infinities, and the unfathomable holiness of God, that we sometimes leave our plain old common sense behind.

Well, God didn't give us good sense, and rationality, so we could just leave it behind.
:)

Sometimes when it looks like perfectly sensible people have left some of their common sense behind, I take a different tack.
I step outside of theology, back to the ordinary world where everything looks much simpler, and I use external stories and analogies: it's to help people to refocus, and to bring their common sense back into play.


God is always sensible:
humans get "data jams", but God is always sensible.


Humans, when feeling overwhelmed by the vastness of theological truths, often just fail to see the obvious.
We simply become overwhelmed.

This doesn't mean we're stupid.
It's just a thing that happens.
When too much data comes in, the system can't sort it all out!
We all have computers; we all understand this.
Too much data jams up the system.

The infinities of God... that's a lot of data!

Sometimes the vast infinities of God give us so much data that our "systems get jammed."
We leave our common sense behind, we just leave it behind sometimes as our minds try desperately to jump through the conundrums, and navigate the paradoxes.
And our minds don't ask us about this... they just take off.
The human mind ALWAYS tries to find a way through problems and paradox.
It just takes off!

But this isn't the way to solve the data jam.
We have to slow it all down.

The way to solve the data jam is to slow down... just get back to common sense... just apply our plain old common sense to the scripture, and slowly, methodically, sort out the jam.


God is always sensible:
many spiritual truths seem IRRATIONAL, but they become RATIONAL AGAIN as soon as we NAVIGATE THE DATA JAM, and find GOD'S PERSPECTIVE.


God is never irrational, but he does go about things in ways that SEEM irrational to those who won't believe.

Examples:

1. Does it seem rational that God uses "the foolish things to confound the wise"?
Well, it isn't rational to the lost world, because they don't WANT God's perspective on it.
But from God's perspective, it's quite rational and sensible.
God uses weak things to show his power and glory because that is simply the MOST PROFOUND and NOTICEABLE way to do it!
Very sensible.

God uses the "foolishness of preaching", and vessels "made of clay", and he uses, sometimes, the weakest among us to proclaim his own greatness.

Isaiah 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

He pushes down the mighty, he raises up the weak... and it all seems very rational if we only have God's perspective.

Once we get God's perspective, there are no conundrums... we see that everything God does is very sensible.


2. Does it seem rational that God would remain partially "hidden" from humans, instead of writing his name in every cloud, or appearing daily in Time Square for all to see?
Well, it isn't rational to the lost world, because they don't WANT God's perspective on it.
But from God's perspective, it's quite rational and sensible.
God doesn't want mankind to search for him with their eyes, he want's mankind to search for him with their hearts... we must look for God with our hearts, and we must have faith.

Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him:"

There ARE many evidence for God we can actually SEE... but God always remains a bit hidden so that we still need to have faith. This faith isn't a "blind" faith, but it is still faith.
If your heart does not look for God, your eyes will never see him, not even in all the evidence of creation... you are not blinded by your failed eyes, you are blinded by a failed heart.

We are not blinded by failing eyes, we are blinded by failing hearts.


God is always rational and sensible, but he often does things that SEEM irrational until we get his perspective.
So when spiritual truths seem irrational, or nonsensical, we need to slow down, and look for God's perspective.
His perspective will always be rational.


Conclusion:
1. The vast infinities of God and of theological truths can, very rightly, overwhelm us, and cause a sort of "data jam."

2. Our minds are always active, trying to find a way through data, and conundrums... our minds will just take off without us.

3. This scenario often leaves us in a spot where we've kind of left common sense behind, accidentally, and we've arrived at some conclusions that don't always make the best sense.

4. We're all in the same boat; all of our minds go through the same processes.

5. Recap: God is sensible and rational, but we can be so overwhelmed by God's infinities that we lose track of sensibility... we don't mean to... it just happens.

6. Solution: The solution is to slow down: apply our common sense to scripture, and slowly, methodically, sort out the "data jam."

.
Thank you for your comments. Proverbs 3:5 tells us to not lean upon our own understanding. Matt 16:24 - If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. I believe the only way that anyone can understand scripture is that the indwelling Holy Spirit reveals it to them. By my own experience, when I was 50 years old the scriptures seemed to contradict themselves and I remember the mindset that I had then and it was that "I was smart enough to figure it out if I purchased a Strong's concordance and studied diligently". I did just that for 12 years and finally concluded that I was not smart enough and settled to be content with not understanding. In a short period of time after that the scriptures began to harmonize with one another. Lesson learned: Deny yourself.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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#67
Hi Whispered, the Bible tell us that space/time was created/was called into existence ex nihilo ~by~the Creator, but where does it ever tell us that the Creation was made ~of~ the Creator :unsure: That, again, is the core belief of Pantheism, not Christianity.

Thanks!

~Deut

John 1
3 All things came into being ~by~ Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
.
Sometimes I think we Christians get caught up in a word so as to lose sight of The Word's words to us.
To be even more clear, I am not speaking of anything called Pantheism.
My references were solely scripture.

The Book of Colossians chapter 1 should put an end to the charge of Pantheism in this discussion with me. If not, that's OK too.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
5,567
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#69
Hi @ForestGreenCook, one final point that I should have mentioned in my last post to you (since you mentioned 1 Corinthians 2:14 in your last post to me) is this:

1 Corinthians 2:14 makes it clear that non-Christians can neither accept nor understand the spiritual things of God, that the things of God are nothing more than foolishness to them ... but it ~never~ says that all non-Christians are "fools", who suppress the truth of God by claiming that there is no God .. Psalm 14:1; Romans 1:18.

There are only a handful among us who are atheists and/or agnostics. The VAST majority of non-Christians believe that God (or a god) exists (just like I did for the 1st 30 years of my life, before I finally became a Christian), but they neither believe in Him nor believe Him, which sadly, may include the majority of those who "claim" to be Christians, as well (as it appears that many who stand will stand in the Judgement at the Great White Throne thought they were Christians .. but the Lord will tell them plainly, "I ~never~ knew you"!

Frightening stuff, yes :oops:

~Deut

Matthew 7
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I ~never~ knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
.
I believe that the vast majority of God's born again Christians do not understand how corrupt they are by nature. The people that Jesus is referencing in Matthew 7 are born again Christians. Verse 21 mentions "the kingdom of heaven" which is one of many names that the scriptures call the church that Jesus set up when he was on earth. There are many more names that also apply to the church, such as, The new Jerusalem, The church of the first born, the church of God, The kingdom of God, The church of Christ, and more. I believe that the doctrine that Jesus taught allows far more people to enter eternal heaven than those that are doomed for hell.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
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#70
I believe that the vast majority of God's born again Christians do not understand how corrupt they are by nature. The people that Jesus is referencing in Matthew 7 are born again Christians. Verse 21 mentions "the kingdom of heaven" which is one of many names that the scriptures call the church that Jesus set up when he was on earth. There are many more names that also apply to the church, such as, The new Jerusalem, The church of the first born, the church of God, The kingdom of God, The church of Christ, and more. I believe that the doctrine that Jesus taught allows far more people to enter eternal heaven than those that are doomed for hell.
I think the children of Israel are a perfect example of how gracious God is. Everybody that came out of Egypt was COVERED by the blood.
 

Deuteronomy

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Jun 11, 2018
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#71
I believe that the vast majority of God's born again Christians do not understand how corrupt they are by nature.
I think I would go so far as to say "all" actually. The more sanctified (the more like Christ) we become, the more we come to realize how great the divide is between us and our Savior.

The people that Jesus is referencing in Matthew 7 are born again Christians.
That's not true.

Eternal life is found in "knowing" Him .. e.g. John 17:3, but Jesus tells those in v22 (who claim that they were Christians), "I ~NEVER~ knew you". That, in fact, is why they will be judged and condemned by Him at the Great White Throne .. e.g. John 3:18. The folks in Matthew 7:22 were not/never were Christians (though they certainly "claimed" and may well have "believed" themselves to be).

Matthew 7:21-23 is one of, if not 'the' most frightening passages in the Bible, IMHO anyway.

~Deut

Matthew 7
21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,654
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#72
Thank you for your comments. Proverbs 3:5 tells us to not lean upon our own understanding. Matt 16:24 - If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. I believe the only way that anyone can understand scripture is that the indwelling Holy Spirit reveals it to them. By my own experience, when I was 50 years old the scriptures seemed to contradict themselves and I remember the mindset that I had then and it was that "I was smart enough to figure it out if I purchased a Strong's concordance and studied diligently". I did just that for 12 years and finally concluded that I was not smart enough and settled to be content with not understanding. In a short period of time after that the scriptures began to harmonize with one another. Lesson learned: Deny yourself.
ForestGreenCook,

I'm going to try to respond to your post, but if I misunderstood you, then please let me know.


1. I can't believe anyone even read that long rambling post I made.

- You clearly have the spiritual gift of patience, lol.

2. When God tells us not to "lean" on our own understanding, I don't think he's instructing us to turn off our minds, and just stop thinking. I believe God means something else.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

3. I think the point of Proverbs 3:5 is this: God is telling us not to TRUST in our own human thoughts, and not to PLACE OUR THOUGHTS ABOVE HIS THOUGHTS.

Of course we should never put our thoughts above God's thoughts...
but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have thoughts.
:)

Rather than entirely stopping our thoughts, we are to simply bring them UNDER CONTROL, so they are under obedience to Christ.

2Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;


We are to learn God's thoughts, and bring our thoughts under obedience, into harmony, with God's thoughts... not turn off our thinking.

In fact, we can't turn off our thinking even if we try.

You can't turn off your brain.
:)

4. When God made us in his image, one of the special things he gave us is the ability to THINK and REASON in rational ways... we are different than all of the animals.

Dogs and cats don't sit around and ponder the meaning of Proverbs 3:5, like we're doing right now.
We are unique.

5. God created us as "thinking" beings.

God created us as thinking beings with the full expectation that we would be THINKING.
So we are NOT to turn our thinking off... but we ARE to bring our thinking under obedience to Christ.

6. God made us thinking beings, and we cannot be separated from our minds... we are to bring our minds under subjection to Christ, and use them as we serve God.

God commands us to think right thoughts.
Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Well, how can we think right thoughts if we are not thinking?

7. Christians should not be afraid to use their minds; it doesn't make us less spiritual to do so... we can't even read the bible or talk to each other without using our minds.

The spirit and the mind are not antithetical, and one needn't compromise the other.
They are to work in harmony and obedience to Christ.

If you aren't going to use your mind, then you can't even disagree with me... because you have to use your mind to do that.
:)


.
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
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#73
Eternal life is found in "knowing" Him .. e.g. John 17:3, but Jesus tells those in v22 (who claim that they were Christians), "I ~NEVER~ knew you". That, in fact, is why they will be judged and condemned by Him at the Great White Throne .. e.g. John 3:18. The folks in Matthew 7:22 were not/never were Christians (though they certainly "claimed" and may well have "believed" themselves to be).
Hello again @ForestGreenCook, it's a small matter, but I meant to say: "The folks in Matthew 7:22 are not/never were Christians...." (missed the 5 min editing window, again).

One last question while I've got you, Jesus said to the folks in v22, "I ~NEVER~ knew you". How could He possibly make such a statement about anyone who He chose to justify & save, who He caused to be born again, who He both loved from everlasting and predestined for adoption from before the foundation of the world, and who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and have been made His masterpiece :unsure:

Thanks again!

~Deut
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
715
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#74
1. Omnipresence:



Omnipresence is an EXTRAORDINARILY complicated and difficult divine attribute for us to sort through.
What is extraordinary isn't the concept of omnipresence,

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Matt 18:20

it is that you can sort it out...

so where is he when two or three people are gather together but not in his name?
 

PERFECTION

Active member
Aug 14, 2019
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#75
I can tell, by the name you go by on this forum, that you use a bible version other than the KJV because in Rom 3:22, Gal 2:16, Gal 3:22 and Rev 14:12 of the KJV it says "faith OF Jesus Christ". There is no scripture in the KJV that says "faith IN Jesus".
Actually I have a bible in any translation you desire. Nevertheless What is your Point? And what is it that you can tell about me because of the name I use on the forum?
Please, I am in no way offended, I am genuinely curious.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
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#76
Your words were found and I ate them, And Your words became for me a joy and the delight of my heart; For I have been called by Your name, O Lord God of hosts.
Jeremiah 15:16 NASB
 

Whispered

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#77
"For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." The Book of Romans chapter 1 verse 20


"Thus says God, the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and what comes from it, who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it:" The Book of Isaiah chapter 42 verse 5
 

PERFECTION

Active member
Aug 14, 2019
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#78
That is incorrect. While God is present throughout His creation, He is also distinct from His creation. Only Pantheism teaches that God is a part of His creation.
ANYTHING, ANYTHING, ANYTHING, That exists , whither a rock or a flower, does so ONLY because of the Life of God. A dog has no soul , but this dog represents one of the many aspects of the glory of God. What life it possesses is expressed here on earth while it remains on earth, each dog being different from the next. The same can be said about a flower, there is never two flowers that are the same just as there are no two rocks that are the same. When a dog dies whatever" LIFE" that is in him returns to Him who gave it. LIFE in all of creation , right down the last grain of sand, is present because He is present. This LIFE is not here because of Him, Life is here because it is Him.

An atom , which is represented as one the smallest segments , that makes up the identity of ANY object, has life within it.
All atoms are eternal . You may change them from one identify to another, but you can never destroy it. All things have life within them, this Life from the smallest to the greatest is nothing less than the Life of God Himself.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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#79
I think I would go so far as to say "all" actually. The more sanctified (the more like Christ) we become, the more we come to realize how great the divide is between us and our Savior.


That's not true.

Eternal life is found in "knowing" Him .. e.g. John 17:3, but Jesus tells those in v22 (who claim that they were Christians), "I ~NEVER~ knew you". That, in fact, is why they will be judged and condemned by Him at the Great White Throne .. e.g. John 3:18. The folks in Matthew 7:22 were not/never were Christians (though they certainly "claimed" and may well have "believed" themselves to be).

Matthew 7:21-23 is one of, if not 'the' most frightening passages in the Bible, IMHO anyway.

~Deut

Matthew 7
21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
.
None of us do the will of our heavenly Father continually. If you are saying that is a requirement to enter into eternal heaven, then it would promote the idea that eternal salvation is gained by the work of man, would it not?
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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#80
It does say in revelation that blessed are those that read that book.
And you can only read it if you actually have a copy of that book. Also didnt Jesus say to John to write down everything he said to him and saw?

Now how would any of us know this if he just didnt write it down? Oh sorry Jesus I wont write it down I will just remember it.
Also in Habbukuk, didnt God say to the prohet WRITE down the vision and make it plain, so you can run with it.

What if Paul never wrote to any of the churches. And we just didnt have any of. His letters. Imagine NO Bibles. People could just make any stuff up. No gospel...just people recalling well there was this guy called Jesus and he had heaps of piercings and ate lots of fish. He was some kind of lifesaver who lived a while back.