There will be no Rapture!!!

[TheDivineWatermark]

These people are killed, their lives are taken from them, they die, they cease living in the flesh; they are CHRISTIANS; and the events in this Scripture transpire during the Tribulation.

There will be many people who will come to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture" and thus will exist on the earth DURING the Tribulation period. Pre-tribbers do not deny this fact.

Some of them will even survive to the END of the Tribulation period, and enter the MK age in their mortal bodies (having the capacity to populate the kingdom). No unbelievers will enter (when it commences at His Second Coming), however.

 

[Truthnightmare]

There will be many people who will come to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture" and thus will exist on the earth DURING the Tribulation period. Pre-tribbers do not deny this fact.

Some of them will even survive to the END of the Tribulation period, and enter the MK age in their mortal bodies (having the capacity to populate the kingdom). No unbelievers will enter (when it commences at His Second Coming), however.

Will the rapture happen before the tribulation? And when does the tribulation start?

 

[presidente]

"... and receive you UNTO MYSELF; that where I am, there ye MAY BE ALSO". (John 14:2-4)

If He was talking about "earth" at that time, how would this make sense in the context? They were already "on the earth"... but He was getting ready to ascend to the Father (following the Cross): "I GO TO PREPARE a place for you..."

(which is a distinct thing from when He will say to the Sheep of the nations, "inherit the kingdom HAVING BEEN PREPARED for you from the foundation of the world," note)

In the book of Revelation we see that the new Herusalem descends out of heaven toward the end of the book

 

[presidente]

Where do we go?

We meet the Lord in the air as He comes.

The men that spoke to the apostles at the ascension said Jesus would return in like manner. When Christ ascended, He did not go up in the sky then hang around on the earth for 7 years.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The men that spoke to the apostles at the ascension said Jesus would return in like manner. When Christ ascended, He did not go up in the sky then hang around on the earth for 7 years.

Jesus had already ascended way back some "40 days" earlier on His Resurrection Day (John 20:17), just as He had told Mary Magdalene.

And no, He did not "hang around" in the air for those "40 days" either.

He fulfilled Leviticus 23:10-12 (ON that very day / ON "Firstfruit" / His Resurrection Day)... and then returned to the earth and was "seen of them" (only believers) during those days before He then went up LATER in the Acts 1 scene (visibly, at that one).




Acts 1:3 - "To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:"




[Recall, the number "40" = "judgment / testing / trial"... see the pattern / parallel??]

 

[Nehemiah6]

Maybe you should take your own advice.

It is very sad to see how you resist the truth.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@Truthnightmare , regarding the questions addressed to me in your post #202.

Allow me to respond first to your second question, "And when does the tribulation start?"

What we commonly term "the Tribulation Period" (consisting of "7 360-day years" or "2520 days," aka the "70th Week") will START at what is talked about in the following passages:



--"Seal #1" - the rider on the white horse with a "BOW" (i.e. "deception") when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13; Rev5:6) at the beginning of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period that Rev1:1 speaks of (also referred to in Rev1:19c and 4:1);

--Seal #1 is the SAME THING as the INITIAL one of the "beginning of birth PANGS" Jesus listed in His Olivet Discourse (namely, in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "A CERTAIN ONE [G5100] [i.e. 'A CERTAIN ONE' bringing deception]");

--Paul had spoken of THAT VERY initial "BIRTH PANG [singular]" where he had said that "the DOTL" will ARRIVE "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth pang" that comes upon a woman with child... And we can see that indeed, Matt24:4 [/Mk13:5] occurs well-prior to the Matt24:29-31 point in the chronology. Many people incorrectly say that "the DOTL" starts at His Second Coming (Rev19) point in the chronology, but they are mistaken... according to what Paul wrote in that 1Th5:1-4 passage;

--at the "whose COMING" of the man on sin (2Th2:9a; Dan11:36; Dan9:27a[,26b]) "IN HIS TIME" (2Th2:6); which is the "IN THE NIGHT" time period (aka the 7-yr Trib)... the "IN THE NIGHT" ["DARK / DARKNESS" Amos 5:18,20; 1Th5:1-3] time period that we / "the Church which is His body" will not step one foot into



--I could say much more on this point, but this will have to suffice for now...



Hope this helps you catch a glimpse into my perspective.

 

[Truthnightmare]

@Truthnightmare , regarding the questions addressed to me in your post #202.

Allow me to respond first to your second question, "And when does the tribulation start?"

What we commonly term "the Tribulation Period" (consisting of "7 360-day years" or "2520 days," aka the "70th Week") will START at what is talked about in the following passages:



--"Seal #1" - the rider on the white horse with a "BOW" (i.e. "deception") when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13; Rev5:6) at the beginning of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period that Rev1:1 speaks of (also referred to in Rev1:19c and 4:1);

--Seal #1 is the SAME THING as the INITIAL one of the "beginning of birth PANGS" Jesus listed in His Olivet Discourse (namely, in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "A CERTAIN ONE [G5100] [i.e. 'A CERTAIN ONE' bringing deception]");

--Paul had spoken of THAT VERY initial "BIRTH PANG [singular]" where he had said that "the DOTL" will ARRIVE "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth pang" that comes upon a woman with child... And we can see that indeed, Matt24:4 [/Mk13:5] occurs well-prior to the Matt24:29-31 point in the chronology. Many people incorrectly say that "the DOTL" starts at His Second Coming (Rev19) point in the chronology, but they are mistaken... according to what Paul wrote in that 1Th5:1-4 passage;

--at the "whose COMING" of the man on sin (2Th2:9a; Dan11:36; Dan9:27a[,26b]) "IN HIS TIME" (2Th2:6); which is the "IN THE NIGHT" time period (aka the 7-yr Trib)... the "IN THE NIGHT" ["DARK / DARKNESS" Amos 5:18,20] time period that we / "the Church which is His body" will not step one foot into



--I could say much more on this point, but this will have to suffice for now...



Hope this helps you catch a glimpse into my perspective.

Ok… and I am still trying to figure this all out.
- So the Rapture happens before the tribulation.. and the tribulation starts when the first seal is opened.
So that means the Christians have been raptured before the 2-3-4 seals are opened.

So who are these “brethren” on earth at the 5th seal.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Those are saints who come to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture"... when they are IN the Trib yrs (early, as the Seals take place early in the Trib); later, there are shown MANY MORE saints who will have come to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture," meaning "the great multitude... of all the nations" in Rev7:9-17 (Please COMPARE this Rev7:9 passage with the message that WILL be going out IN / DURING the Trib years, spoken of in Matthew 24:14 [/26:13]--not to mention other passages I won't touch on here).

 

[Truthnightmare]

^ Those are saints who come to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture"... when they are IN the Trib yrs (early, as the Seals take place early in the Trib); later, there are shown MANY MORE saints who will have come to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture," meaning "the great multitude... of all the nations" in Rev7:9-17 (Please COMPARE this Rev7:9 passage with the message that WILL be going out IN / DURING the Trib years, spoken of in Matthew 24:14 [/26:13]--not to mention other passages I won't touch on here).

I can’t find any scripture that talks about people coming to the faith after the rapture…

In Revelation 7:14 it says…
And I said unto him, “Sir, thou knowest.” And he said to me, “These are they that came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Are you saying these people didn’t get raptured but later become believers?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Re; the "a great multitude... of all the nations" coming out of "the great tribulation" (Rev7:9,14), yes, I am saying these saints will be coming to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture," when they are IN the Trib yrs and hearing the msg being carried forth WITHIN those Trib yrs (Matt24:14/26:13, as well as passages like "BLESSED are those HAVING BEEN INVITED to the wedding FEAST / SUPPER of the Lamb" Rev19:9--distinct from 19:7!--Note that "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" IS the *earthly* MK age, commencing at His Second Coming TO THE EARTH Rev19. IOW, they are not "the Bride / Wife [singular]" (of Rev19:7) but they are still saints [/believers]... they will have been "INVITED" to the MK age DURING the Trib yrs (FOLLOWING "our Rapture").




[Note that Paul, in his 2 chpts of 2Th2:1 and 2, is CONTRASTING the TWO distinct "beliefs" ppl WILL be coming to when they are IN the Trib yrs FOLLOWING "our Rapture"... 2Th2:10-12 is just one "bookend" on those two contrasted beliefs ppl will be coming to, during that time-period... the ones that will "believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" because God "SHALL SEND TO THEM strong delusion..." ]

 

[ewq1938]

- So the Rapture happens before the tribulation..

The rapture happens after the trib has ended according to scripture.

Here is the only passage about The Rapture that actually uses the Greek word that means a rapture, Harpazo:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

Here we see the second coming mentioned 3 times, then the resurrection and then the rapture. This proves the rapture is connected to the second coming. All that needs to be proven is when the second coming happens to know when the rapture happens.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


The second coming happens AFTER the GT is over, so the rapture happens post-Trib. Circumventing these two passages is to ignore the scriptural evidence of WHEN the rapture is going to happen.







********************************


2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

This gathering is another way to speak of the rapture. Christ used this same language:


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that both speak of the coming of Christ and the rapture which is the gathering of the saints. Because pretribbers are so loyal to their doctrine, they are forced to deny the rapture is spoken of in Matthew 24 despite that it clearly is described.

Christ places the Rapture after the GT ends, which is Post-trib. This matches what Paul said about the timing of the Rapture. Never, not a single time, is the rapture placed before the GT.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Never, not a single time, is the rapture placed before the GT.

Question: What are you labeling the "GT"?...

--the second half of the 7 year period? i.e. that which starts at the AOD according to Jesus' words in Matthew 24:15,20-21 when "them which be in Judaea" are to "flee to the mountains" which connects to that which Revelation 12:6,14 also speaks to, when there are "1260 days" yet remaining until Christ's Second Coming... and which likewise connects with the time-stamps named in both Dan7:25 and 12:6-7[,11's "AOD"])

OR

--the entire 7-yr period (as many tend to incorrectly label as "great tribulation" / "the great tribulation" ['GT'])?




... which of these is what you are calling the "GT," I'm wondering?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@ewq1938 ,

On another note:

notice how the phrase "the four winds" (like used in Matt24) is used elsewhere in Scripture...

--Zech2:6 - "Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD." (a judicial "scattering");

-- Dan11:4 - "And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those." (a judicial "scattering");

-- Jer49:36 - "And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come." (a judicial "scattering");





This is also what happened to ISRAEL (not to "the Church which is His body" / us); so that particular "gathering" in Matthew 24:29-31 comports with the "gather ye ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel" at the "GREAT" trumpet having been written about in Isa27:9,12-13. They'll be gathered "one by one" (not "AS ONE" as WE will be) by angels "He SHALL SEND" to do so, and they will be gathered to one place upon the earth: "and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM"...


But the destination location of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" is told about in 1Th3:13 "BEFORE [in the presence of] the God and Father of us..." (UP THERE; see Dan7:13 also)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ ETA: see also 2Cor4:14 - "knowing that the One having raised up the Lord Jesus also will raise us up through Jesus and will present [G3936] us with you."

(see this "present [G3936]" word used also in Col1:22)



... the destination location of the purpose of 1Th4:17's "snatch" is found in the same context several verses back: 1Th3:13! But in that verse, see G1715! "BEFORE the God and Father of us in the coming/parousia of..." (that is UP THERE! IN GOD'S PRESENCE!)

 

[ewq1938]

Question: What are you labeling the "GT"?...

--the second half of the 7 year period?

There is no 7 year period anymore. Christ said the trib was shortened, so we read of the beast having 42 months in Rev, which is half of the original 7 years. Thus, the GT is the entirety of the trib period which is 42 months.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

There is no 7 year period anymore. Christ said the trib was shortened, so we read of the beast having 42 months in Rev, which is half of the original 7 years. Thus, the GT is the entirety of the trib period which is 42 months.

In understand your perspective, but I do disagree.

What are your thoughts about how Paul (in 1Th5:1-3) stated that the DOTL's ARRIVAL will be "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" that comes upon a woman, as referring back to that which Jesus had spoken of in His Olivet Discourse, namely in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 as the INITIAL "birth pang [singular.; G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' bringing deception]" of "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]"... which is decidedly well-prior to the Matt24:29-31 point in the chronology when Christ's Second Coming to the earth takes place (Rev19)... as I'd spelled out in my Post #207 of this thread: https://christianchat.com/threads/there-will-be-no-rapture.212356/post-5144416


Care to comment on that post... and explain how [according to your view / or, consequently] one would have to believe that "the DOTL" (1Th5:1-3) must have commenced at some point back in the first century (Seals / beginning of birth PANGS--being the same thing--and that which Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 states are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... not things which would transpire over the course of some "near-2000 years" [or more], as the "Historicists" would have it).

 

[selahsays]

There is no 7 year period anymore. Christ said the trib was shortened, so we read of the beast having 42 months in Rev, which is half of the original 7 years. Thus, the GT is the entirety of the trib period which is 42 months.

Thanks, and I agree with the above. —but in the verses below, what is the significance of the 5 months period? I’ve heard some say that the 3.5 years has been further shortened to 5 months. I don’t know.

Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.

- Revelation 9:1-6 (NKJV)

 

[ewq1938]

In understand your perspective, but I do disagree.

What are your thoughts about how Paul (in 1Th5:1-3) stated that the DOTL's ARRIVAL will be "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" that comes upon a woman, as referring back to that which Jesus had spoken of in His Olivet Discourse, namely in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 as the INITIAL "birth pang [singular.; G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' bringing deception]" of "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]"... which is decidedly well-prior to the Matt24:29-31 point in the chronology when Christ's Second Coming to the earth takes place (Rev19)... as I'd spelled out in my Post #207 of this thread: https://christianchat.com/threads/there-will-be-no-rapture.212356/post-5144416


Care to comment on that post... and explain how [according to your view / or, consequently] one would have to believe that "the DOTL" (1Th5:1-3) must have commenced at some point back in the first century (Seals / beginning of birth PANGS--being the same thing--and that which Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 states are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... not things which would transpire over the course of some "near-2000 years" [or more], as the "Historicists" would have it).

Your writing style is too confusing to be able to decipher. If you can write simply, using only normal sentences then maybe I could understand what you are asking.

 

[ewq1938]

Thanks, and I agree with the above. —but in the verses below, what is the significance of the 5 months period? I’ve heard some say that the 3.5 years has been further shortened to 5 months. I don’t know.

Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.

- Revelation 9:1-6 (NKJV)

The 6 months is part of the 5th trump. The GT is the 6th trump. In the 5th trump, only those without the seal of God will be affected. It seems to me to be a poisoning (likely spiritual but possibly physical as well...vaccines?), getting the population ready to take part in the GT.