There will be no Rapture!!!
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Is this the best you got? You mean you can't answer for yourself? I guess you don't know about 1Peter 3:15, "but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who ask you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;"
Here, let me give you another chance to answer another simple question. This one is from 2 Thessalonians 1:5-7. "This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.
Vs6, "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you you, (When) vs7,and to give RELIEF/REST to you who are afflicted and to us as well (WHEN) the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire."
This is completely consistent with what Jesus stated at Matthew 24. So where is the rapture? Btw, read the rest of 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 and take notice of Chapter 2 vs 1-3, the man of lawlessness.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Here, let me give you another chance to answer another simple question. This one is from 2 Thessalonians 1:5-7. "This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.
Vs6, "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you you, (When) vs7,and to give RELIEF/REST to you who are afflicted and to us as well (WHEN) the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire."
This is completely consistent with what Jesus stated at Matthew 24. So where is the rapture? Btw, read the rest of 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 and take notice of Chapter 2 vs 1-3, the man of lawlessness.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
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Rev 7:13-17
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. (KJV)
Explanation of above: #1 These are they which came out of great tribulation = It reads: "Out of," not "out before." Out of the 'the other end' Great Tribulation, not out before it happens. No Rapture here, sorry folks. You cannot come "out" of something unless you were "in" it! It is saying those who come out unscathed, those who come out undeceived, those who resist the temptation and trickery of satan during the tribulation and come out of it having remained true to the Lord till the end; It is those that shall receive the rewards of a good and faithful servant!
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. (KJV)
Explanation of above: #1 These are they which came out of great tribulation = It reads: "Out of," not "out before." Out of the 'the other end' Great Tribulation, not out before it happens. No Rapture here, sorry folks. You cannot come "out" of something unless you were "in" it! It is saying those who come out unscathed, those who come out undeceived, those who resist the temptation and trickery of satan during the tribulation and come out of it having remained true to the Lord till the end; It is those that shall receive the rewards of a good and faithful servant!
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One must understand who and what a Jew is also understanding..
“by the time of Jesus the word Edom or Edomite had been translated by Greek and Latin into ae-Ioudaios-Iudaeusalso including in this meaning were the terms Judea-Judean or person living in Judea. The original King James version of the Bible 1611 translated Idumaean - Judean into Iewes. It wasn't until the revised editions of the King James Bible, that the word jew appeared (after the year 1900 ). The word jew does not mean Israel or Israelite! From the Christian Guard Dispatch 76-77]
According to you salvation belongs to these people…
Revelation 2:9
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
“by the time of Jesus the word Edom or Edomite had been translated by Greek and Latin into ae-Ioudaios-Iudaeusalso including in this meaning were the terms Judea-Judean or person living in Judea. The original King James version of the Bible 1611 translated Idumaean - Judean into Iewes. It wasn't until the revised editions of the King James Bible, that the word jew appeared (after the year 1900 ). The word jew does not mean Israel or Israelite! From the Christian Guard Dispatch 76-77]
According to you salvation belongs to these people…
Revelation 2:9
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Revelation 7:9-17 is NOT a "rapture" passage.
Those are saints who will have come to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture" when they are IN the Trib years [7yrs], i.e. the "in quickness [noun]" time period that Rev1:1 is speaking to [1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c]... and "coming out of the GREAT tribulation" (i.e. second half), the text here (Rev7) does not state that these are "kept out-of [ek]" it, see.
The "rapture / snatch" does NOT pertain to them.
Those are saints who will have come to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture" when they are IN the Trib years [7yrs], i.e. the "in quickness [noun]" time period that Rev1:1 is speaking to [1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c]... and "coming out of the GREAT tribulation" (i.e. second half), the text here (Rev7) does not state that these are "kept out-of [ek]" it, see.
The "rapture / snatch" does NOT pertain to them.
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No, "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" takes place upon the earth following His "RETURN" there (2nd Coming to the earth Rev19), and IS the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (or at least its inauguration).
It is not the purpose of "our Rapture" (we won't be "feasting" when we're raptured [/caught up]--that's not WHEN the "feast" takes place, nor where)
It is not the purpose of "our Rapture" (we won't be "feasting" when we're raptured [/caught up]--that's not WHEN the "feast" takes place, nor where)
The scriptures say nothing about “these are the people who come to faith” you added that..
Also
Rev 13:7-8
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (KJV)
The beast is making war with the saints, not people who are going to become saints later.
Also
Rev 13:7-8
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (KJV)
The beast is making war with the saints, not people who are going to become saints later.
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Yes I believe that will happen. But it will
Happen the way scripture declares it, not the way man images it.
As stated: when utilizing the Greek subject and object is of the utmost importance.
The subject is not rapture, or millennium or trumps.
The subject is where the dead are.
1Thes 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant#1, brethren, concerning them which are asleep#2, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Happen the way scripture declares it, not the way man images it.
As stated: when utilizing the Greek subject and object is of the utmost importance.
The subject is not rapture, or millennium or trumps.
The subject is where the dead are.
1Thes 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant#1, brethren, concerning them which are asleep#2, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
@Truthnightmare 's Post #391 (top line, where you'd put "since I don't believe in a rapture"),
What we call "rapture" is G726 harpagēsometha (used in 1Th4:17, and elsewhere) and basically means to "snatch" one from one place to another.
This same G726 word is used in Rev12:5, where it states, "And she brought forth a male son, who is about to [/sure to] shepherd all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up [G726] to God, and to His throne."
What do you believe about this Rev12:5 verse, may I ask?
Any "movement / relocation" whatsoever?
[btw, Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:9,12-13 's "gathering" is from where they'd been judicially "scattered" INTO ONE place upon the earth: "to worship the Lord in the holy mount, at Jerusalem" (this is not "our rapture")]
What we call "rapture" is G726 harpagēsometha (used in 1Th4:17, and elsewhere) and basically means to "snatch" one from one place to another.
This same G726 word is used in Rev12:5, where it states, "And she brought forth a male son, who is about to [/sure to] shepherd all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up [G726] to God, and to His throne."
What do you believe about this Rev12:5 verse, may I ask?
Any "movement / relocation" whatsoever?
[btw, Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:9,12-13 's "gathering" is from where they'd been judicially "scattered" INTO ONE place upon the earth: "to worship the Lord in the holy mount, at Jerusalem" (this is not "our rapture")]
I think we can agree that the mind (brain) plays a huge role.
Revelation 7:3
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Revelation 9:4 They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
If satan comes to earth as antichrist, and convinces you you’ve been raptured, he has the ability to create a matrix.
Remember “ALL signs and lying wonder” ALL
If I’m wrong no worries, for my salvation is not based on belief or none belief in the rapture. But if you are wrong, the true Christ will return and find you in bed with another.
He told us don’t go anywhere! Stay working! He’s bringing the kingdom with Him.
Revelation 7:3
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Revelation 9:4 They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
If satan comes to earth as antichrist, and convinces you you’ve been raptured, he has the ability to create a matrix.
Remember “ALL signs and lying wonder” ALL
If I’m wrong no worries, for my salvation is not based on belief or none belief in the rapture. But if you are wrong, the true Christ will return and find you in bed with another.
He told us don’t go anywhere! Stay working! He’s bringing the kingdom with Him.
@Truthnightmare' s Post #391, second line, where you'd put:
"What that passage [Rev7] notes is there will be people (believers) that come out of the tribulation."
Of course there will. I already said as much in a previous post where I responded to one of your posts.
I pointed out (for one thing) how Revelation 19:9's INVITED GUESTS (TO "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" i.e. earthly ML age) were (as it states in that verse "HAVING BEEN INVITED to the wedding Feast/Supper of the Lamb" (the "HAVING BEEN INVITED TO..." took place all throughout the "in quickness [noun]" time period that Rev1:1[,1:19c / 4:1] is talking about (from chpt 6 thru chpt 19!), i.e. the 7-yr Trib).
NOWHERE does it state that these folks will be "G726'd"!!!!
[note that Rev20:4b is about the saints who die / are martyred in the SECOND HALF; whereas Rev20:4a speaks of those who will remain ALIVE unto the end... and corresponds with Dan7:22... These folks are NOT "raptured [G726]" at any time!]
The INVITED GUESTS [PLURAL] "to the wedding FEAST / SUPPER [i.e. earthly MK]" of 19:9 are NOT "the Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]" of v.7 (to whom alone pertains the "MARRIAGE" itself).
"What that passage [Rev7] notes is there will be people (believers) that come out of the tribulation."
Of course there will. I already said as much in a previous post where I responded to one of your posts.
I pointed out (for one thing) how Revelation 19:9's INVITED GUESTS (TO "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" i.e. earthly ML age) were (as it states in that verse "HAVING BEEN INVITED to the wedding Feast/Supper of the Lamb" (the "HAVING BEEN INVITED TO..." took place all throughout the "in quickness [noun]" time period that Rev1:1[,1:19c / 4:1] is talking about (from chpt 6 thru chpt 19!), i.e. the 7-yr Trib).
NOWHERE does it state that these folks will be "G726'd"!!!!
[note that Rev20:4b is about the saints who die / are martyred in the SECOND HALF; whereas Rev20:4a speaks of those who will remain ALIVE unto the end... and corresponds with Dan7:22... These folks are NOT "raptured [G726]" at any time!]
The INVITED GUESTS [PLURAL] "to the wedding FEAST / SUPPER [i.e. earthly MK]" of 19:9 are NOT "the Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]" of v.7 (to whom alone pertains the "MARRIAGE" itself).
That’s not quite what ἁρπάζω means.
catch, seize, take by force.
From a derivative of haireomai; to seize (in various applications) -- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force). obtain by robbery.
So it is up to the reader to apply the correct application. Revelation 12:5 being the same.
The question is caught up to where? So let’s look at the Greek a bit more.
clouds: Greek word #3507 nephele (nef-el'-ay); from #3509; properly, cloudiness, i.e. (concretely) a cloud.
Cloud: #3509 nephos- a cloud, a large dense multitude, a throng; a). used to denote a great shapeless collection of vapor obscuring the heavens as opposed to a particular and definite masses of vapor with some form or shape; b). a cloud in the sky
Above we see that the word can mean either a 'cloud in the sky' or a dense multitude or throng (of people). As I said, the Lexicons are not specific enough here for us to 'hang our hat on,' so to speak. However, there is another resource available to us to secure the proper meaning of the word 'cloud' as it is used here, and that is Scripture itself. We shall let the Bible translate itself. The word "Cloud" #3509 'nephos' whence comes our word 'clouds' is used in only one place in the entire Bible, this will remove any ambiguity with the word usage.
Apostle Paul wrote our Scripture here in 1st Thessalonians, he also wrote the book of Hebrews. It is in the book of Hebrews that Paul used the word "cloud #3509."
Heb 12:1 (Paul's use of the word 'cloud' as a figure of speech)
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us (KJV)
Like I said, Paul was using a colloquialism (figure of speech). Paul no more meant that those would meet Jesus in a 'rain cloud' than he meant that the people above would stage a foot-race on a 'rain-cloud.' The use of the word 'cloud' or 'clouds' in these two Scriptures means a crowd, a great multitude, a vast collection, or dense for multitude of people, as in a "cloud of locusts," or, a "cloud of mosquitoes."
Also, when Jesus Christ returns at his second Advent he will be accompanied by an innumerable host of Angels {Rev 19:11-16}. Below, that innumerable host of Angels is referred to as 'clouds.' Jesus isn't coming on or in water clouds, He is coming with clouds of Angels, so many that they will cloud the sky and can not be counted for their multitude:
Rev 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (KJV)
Air: Greek word #109 aer (ah-ayr'); from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient)
This is what God did into Adams nostrils, and through Christ we shall have the "breath of eternal life." The Hebrew counterpart for this word is:
breath of (life): Hebrew word #5397 neshamah (nesh-aw-maw'); from 5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal: KJV-- blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit. Neshamah - The breath, the spirit; a) the breath (of God) b) the breath (of man) c) every breathing thing d) the spirit (of man).
THE word “AIR” doesn't mean 'air' like in the sky (for you even have 'air' in your basement). But rather it is the spirit of life air, the pneuma, as in a pneumatic tire (whence we get the word pneumatic). It is the animation of the body, the life, the spirit.
catch, seize, take by force.
From a derivative of haireomai; to seize (in various applications) -- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force). obtain by robbery.
So it is up to the reader to apply the correct application. Revelation 12:5 being the same.
The question is caught up to where? So let’s look at the Greek a bit more.
clouds: Greek word #3507 nephele (nef-el'-ay); from #3509; properly, cloudiness, i.e. (concretely) a cloud.
Cloud: #3509 nephos- a cloud, a large dense multitude, a throng; a). used to denote a great shapeless collection of vapor obscuring the heavens as opposed to a particular and definite masses of vapor with some form or shape; b). a cloud in the sky
Above we see that the word can mean either a 'cloud in the sky' or a dense multitude or throng (of people). As I said, the Lexicons are not specific enough here for us to 'hang our hat on,' so to speak. However, there is another resource available to us to secure the proper meaning of the word 'cloud' as it is used here, and that is Scripture itself. We shall let the Bible translate itself. The word "Cloud" #3509 'nephos' whence comes our word 'clouds' is used in only one place in the entire Bible, this will remove any ambiguity with the word usage.
Apostle Paul wrote our Scripture here in 1st Thessalonians, he also wrote the book of Hebrews. It is in the book of Hebrews that Paul used the word "cloud #3509."
Heb 12:1 (Paul's use of the word 'cloud' as a figure of speech)
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us (KJV)
Like I said, Paul was using a colloquialism (figure of speech). Paul no more meant that those would meet Jesus in a 'rain cloud' than he meant that the people above would stage a foot-race on a 'rain-cloud.' The use of the word 'cloud' or 'clouds' in these two Scriptures means a crowd, a great multitude, a vast collection, or dense for multitude of people, as in a "cloud of locusts," or, a "cloud of mosquitoes."
Also, when Jesus Christ returns at his second Advent he will be accompanied by an innumerable host of Angels {Rev 19:11-16}. Below, that innumerable host of Angels is referred to as 'clouds.' Jesus isn't coming on or in water clouds, He is coming with clouds of Angels, so many that they will cloud the sky and can not be counted for their multitude:
Rev 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (KJV)
Air: Greek word #109 aer (ah-ayr'); from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient)
This is what God did into Adams nostrils, and through Christ we shall have the "breath of eternal life." The Hebrew counterpart for this word is:
breath of (life): Hebrew word #5397 neshamah (nesh-aw-maw'); from 5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal: KJV-- blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit. Neshamah - The breath, the spirit; a) the breath (of God) b) the breath (of man) c) every breathing thing d) the spirit (of man).
THE word “AIR” doesn't mean 'air' like in the sky (for you even have 'air' in your basement). But rather it is the spirit of life air, the pneuma, as in a pneumatic tire (whence we get the word pneumatic). It is the animation of the body, the life, the spirit.