There will be no Rapture!!!

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

^ @2ndTimeIsTheCharm ,

Fair enough...

... but it comes across to me as though you have no explanation as to how Paul could say (addressed to the Church which is His body),

Well, you've been warned. All your debating isn't going to help you when the AC shows up and you're still here not ready.

🌈

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Are saying that Darby wrote the New Testament?
The New Testament was written about 2000 years ago. You line of reasoning is flawed.
The new Testament definitely has the doctrine of the pre tribulation rapture.

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.- - Rev 3:10

1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. - Matt 25:1-13

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 These 4:13-18

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. - Matthew 24:40-42

There are more. Revelation is of course a big clue. Who are all those people in heaven from Revelation 4 through 19.

That is 3 passages from Jesus Christ and one from Paul. They are not heretics as you seem to be implying.

Now there are heretical churches, the Catholic Church has quite a few. They deny a rapture too. Why listen to those that err?

I don't even believe that John Darby could read or write and actually read the Bible. If you can actually read, I mean literally r-e-a-d, then you cannot be fooled by a false Doctrine, like pre-trib Rapture.

 

[SavedByTheLord]

I don't even believe that John Darby could read or write and actually read the Bible. If you can actually read, I mean literally r-e-a-d, then you cannot be fooled by a false Doctrine, like pre-trib Rapture.

As I have already told you, Darby did not write the New Testament. That was written about 1800 years before Darby.

Here are some infallible proofs from the New Testament of the pre tribulation rapture. Jesus spoke 4 of them and Paul wrote the other.

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.- - Rev 3:10

1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. - Matt 25:1-13

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 These 4:13-18

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. - Matthew 24:40-42

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. – Matthew 22:11-13

There are more. Revelation is of course a big clue. Who are all those people in heaven from Revelation 4 through 19.

 

[cv5]

By "WE" do you mean, "the Church which is His body," or...




Well, let me put it like this (besides what I just put in my previous post [plz see that post too!], which will also help explain what I'm putting here in this one!)...

the "you / ye" in Matthew 24 is a consistent "you / ye"... and a "proleptic 'you / ye'"... "proleptic," meaning (basically), all those in the future OF THE SAME CATEGORY. And in THAT CONTEXT, Jesus is speaking to those TO WHOM "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" WAS PROMISED. (That is, to believing / faithful ISRAEL... those from the nation of Israel).






[EVERYTHING from Matthew 24:4 onward [for 2 chpts] speaks of that which FOLLOWS "our Rapture"; Our rapture is NOT the Subject Jesus is covering ANYWHERE in His Olivet Discourse.]

Clearly, this is the case.

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

There will be no pre or mid tribulation rapture. This is an invention of the dispensationalists. The Pre-Rapture was invented by the dispensationalist John Darby in the 19th century. It did not exist before that. Church history did not know a Pre-Rapture before the 19th century.

The Bible clearly states that Christians must go through the Tribulation, for Revelation 20:4 describes how Christians will be beheaded for their faith during the Tribulation. If there really was a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then logically there would be no Christians in the Tribulation, but because there will be Christians in the Tribulation, that means there will be no Pre-Tribulation Rapture! Revelation 13:7 also declares that Christians will be given into the hand of the Antichrist, which means the Antichrist may overcome Christians and kill them.

Jesus will return only once and that is after the tribulation. Then he will gather all Christians.

Someone's comparing spiritual with spiritual.

Revelation 20:9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Jesus' parable of the wheat and tares illustrates that the tares will first be collected and tied in bundles (wrath) to be burned (at the end of the millennium) and then the wheat (those who are alive and remain) will be gathered into the barn (rapture, never to be burned) at the time of harvest. How has this order of events been reversed?

"First" refers to gathering the tares before God destroys the world. Not gathering the tares first before the rapture of the elect.

 

[cv5]

This is one of the reasons I've changed slightly over time from a definite Pre trib, to a very possible Mid trib.

First we have to distinguish between tribulation, and the Great Tribulation. Christians have been persecuted throughout history and of course even today. But the GT is referred to as a specific 7 yr period of time, that supposedly kicks off at the signing of a new treaty, or global enforcement, of an existing treaty. We don't know exactly what this treaty will look like, or I've heard some say that it's already signed and waiting for the AC to enforce. Most Pre tribbers think it will involve the construction of the Temple in Jerusalem, or possibly even the sanctioning of animal sacrifices.

It may, but I have come to believe that the reception or activation of the mark is what is meant as the AC seating himself in the Temple of God, declaring himself to be god. Several places in Scripture says that NOW WE are the Temple of God. But it may be both things.

Anyway, for Christians, I believe the more horrible persecution will be during the FIRST 3.5 yrs of the GT. We will, as always, endure Satan's/man's wrath and persecution. I do not believe we will be here to endure GOD'S Wrath, which doesn't start until the 2nd 3.5 yrs on the world. Although those converted AFTER the rapture I think will be shielded from God's Wrath while still receiving Satan's/man's.

Now I fully admit I'm probably wrong on some of the above. But I can't see any scenario where the Church is still here after the AC seats himself on the throne.

Have to confess, I am more pre-trib than ever. If that is even possible.
I see nothing whatsoever to convince me otherwise. Not even a little bit, no doubt whatsoever that the pre-trib rapture is exactly that which the Word intentionally teaches and declares.

 

[cv5]

We’ll, those converted AFTER the rapture would certainly be considered the elect as well.

Yup. Same as elect Jews and elect Christians.

 

[cv5]

Well, you've been warned. All your debating isn't going to help you when the AC shows up and you're still here not ready.

🌈

Still waiting for someone to show me the terms "Church" and "Christian" between Rev ch 6-19.
And still waiting for an answer as to how the 24 Elders self-identify as Christians.....who are abiding in HEAVEN before the AC is "revealed" in Rev 6.

 

[DRobinson]

They provide an exact description that defines WHO THEY ARE!
-redeemed out of every tribe tongue people and nation (JEWS AND GENTILES!)
-white robes
-thrones
-kings and priests
-crowns

THE CHURCH. The one and only Body that possesses these attributes. Wake up to this crucial Biblical truth friend.

What versr states redeemed out of every tribe tongue people and nation?

It's an issue for DRobinson, who's been repeatedly saying "the FIRST resurrection" in Rev20 is preceded by NO OTHER before it!


Now, if YOU have no issue with "TWO PEOPLE" (the "2W") being "resurrected BEFORE" the larger group does, despite the phrase "THE RESURRECTION the FIRST" (as some want to insist is THE ONLY ONE, at that ONE POINT IN TIME, for ALL SAINTS)... it makes me wonder why the supposed "rule of 'FIRST[-in-time]'" ( ), so to speak, can be "bent / broken / ignored" for THOSE TWO (the "2W"), but absolutely CANNOT be for...

the "ONE BODY"





("the Church which is HIS BODY [SINGULAR]")









[again, "[re: resurrection] But each IN THE OWN ORDER / RANK"... WHY the need to say this, IF there remains ONLY ONE, at one point in time... and in fact, Paul lists them out (the "future tense" ones, according to the "future tense" "SHALL... BE MADE ALIVE," and where the "But [conj]" joins what v.22b had just said about that "future," to the entire contents of v.23! Not to mention the reason Paul uses both "EPeita" and "eita" in this context, in abutting verses]

Who are the two witnesses?
Are they men who have been born in the flesh and grew into adults as all of us?
Or are they two of the OT prophets that God sends to stand before the man of sin who appear to have fleshly bodies as the angels that visited Abraham and Lot?
As I have stated before all those resurrected in the past were resurrected in the flesh and when the dead in Christ are resurrected it will not be in a fleshly body but a glorified body.
This will happen only one time and at the return of Jesus.

 

[DRobinson]

What versr states redeemed out of every tribe tongue people and nation?


Who are the two witnesses?
Are they men who have been born in the flesh and grew into adults as all of us?
Or are they two of the OT prophets that God sends to stand before the man of sin who appear to have fleshly bodies as the angels that visited Abraham and Lot?
As I have stated before all those resurrected in the past were resurrected in the flesh and when the dead in Christ are resurrected it will not be in a fleshly body but a glorified body.
This will happen only one time and at the return of Jesus.

Let me say to cv5 he is correct in that the Scripture states redeemed from every tribe, but it does not say resurrected.
Tried to correct this but waited to long.

 

[DRobinson]

Just curious, but how many of you have changed your mind on this subject?
As a young believer I was taught the pre-trip view but as I began to study for myself, I found many Scripture that did not agree with what I was taught and when I questioned others I was never given an answer that agreed with Scripture.
Not the only thing I was taught that I found did not agree with Scripture.

 

[cv5]

What versr states redeemed out of every tribe tongue people and nation?


Who are the two witnesses?
Are they men who have been born in the flesh and grew into adults as all of us?
Or are they two of the OT prophets that God sends to stand before the man of sin who appear to have fleshly bodies as the angels that visited Abraham and Lot?
As I have stated before all those resurrected in the past were resurrected in the flesh and when the dead in Christ are resurrected it will not be in a fleshly body but a glorified body.
This will happen only one time and at the return of Jesus.

Its all there friend....
In fact the truth is the pre-trib rapture is all there. No doubt about it.

Rev 5:9
And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Still waiting for someone to show me the terms "Church" and "Christian" between Rev ch 6-19.
And still waiting for an answer as to how the 24 Elders self-identify as Christians.....who are abiding in HEAVEN before the AC is "revealed" in Rev 6.

All this debating is just deflecting and sticking your head in the sand. Those 24 elders are already safe but no amount of debating that will do anything to help you get through the GT to the end, so who cares?

Build up your faith in the Lord. Be empowered by the Holy Spirit so that you'll be able to withstand the coming persecution and high possibility of execution. Be able to trust that God will provide for His people when the mark of the beast comes and so reject it. And also don't betray God and God's people to try to save your own skin.

This is not just to you, but for everyone who reads this! I don't think this world has that much time so don't waste that time debating over useless issues.

🌈

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Just curious, but how many of you have changed your mind on this subject?
As a young believer I was taught the pre-trip view but as I began to study for myself, I found many Scripture that did not agree with what I was taught and when I questioned others I was never given an answer that agreed with Scripture.
Not the only thing I was taught that I found did not agree with Scripture.

I have heard of the Post-Trib teaching from the time I was conscious of the concept of end times (I think when I was a pre-teen). I've only heard of the Pre-Trib teaching from Hal Lindsey's "Late Great Planet Earth" book which to me was a total surprise because no matter how much I tried, that teaching did not line up with what the Bible says. So I just left that up in the air for quite a number of years. But after trying several times to try to fit the Pre-Trib teaching into the Bible, I came to the definite conclusion that it is false!

If you just read the Bible without any other helps and read it plainly, the Bible clearly says that Rapture will be Post-Trib. It was scary when I realized that, but God did say to endure to the end - this is how we prepare - and I've been doing that since then with the help of the Holy Spirit.

🌈

 

[cv5]

I've only heard of the Pre-Trib teaching from Hal Lindsey's "Late Great Planet Earth" book which to me was a total surprise

And there you go. Why profess expertise in the matter of the pre-trib rapture when you confess ignorance?
The content of your post indicate extreme ignorance of the topic.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

And there you go. Why profess expertise in the matter of the pre-trib rapture when you confess ignorance?
The content of your post indicate extreme ignorance of the topic.

Except I never said I was an expert at it? I do know that the rapture is definitely Post-Trib though. Just read the Bible plainly without extra biblical resources and it's all there.

I've already warned you that you'll still be here and if you don't want to prepare for it, then so be it. When the AC shows up, you'll remember what I and so many other Post-Tribbers have told you and shown you from the Bible. Just don't betray us when you try to save your own skin.

🌈

 

[selahsays]

I have heard of the Post-Trib teaching from the time I was conscious of the concept of end times (I think when I was a pre-teen). I've only heard of the Pre-Trib teaching from Hal Lindsey's "Late Great Planet Earth" book which to me was a total surprise because no matter how much I tried, that teaching did not line up with what the Bible says. So I just left that up in the air for quite a number of years. But after trying several times to try to fit the Pre-Trib teaching into the Bible, I came to the definite conclusion that it is false!

If you just read the Bible without any other helps and read it plainly, the Bible clearly says that Rapture will be Post-Trib. It was scary when I realized that, but God did say to endure to the end - this is how we prepare - and I've been doing that since then with the help of the Holy Spirit.

🌈

I thankfully abandoned the pretrib rapture theory after growing in my knowledge of God's Word and realizing that it could not be supported by His Word. See, there’s no way we’re flying up in the air just when our Father needs us the most. Who’s going to stand for Jesus when the AC comes claiming to be Him? There will come a time during the great tribulation when God, through the Holy Spirit, will speak through His Elect. Hey, we’ve got a job to do here—for Him.

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

- Revelation 3:12 (KJV)

 

[Truthnightmare]

So far what I’ve gathered is…
Pre-Tribulational Rapturism:
This is by far, the most common viewpoint in America today among those who believe in any one of the many Rapture theories. It's roots can be traced back to 1830, although it did not really become prevalent in America until the early 1900's. Pre-trib teaches this:

The final 7-year period of the world is called the Tribulation.
The last 3.5 years are called the Great Tribulation.
The entire 7-year period is considered the Wrath of God or the Day of the Lord.
Since the Church is not destined for God's wrath, then the Church is Raptured prior to the 7-year period.
The Rapture is considered to be an "any moment" event.
This is wrong, wrong, wrong! The Tribulation is one event, it is the Great Tribulation: " For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." {Matt 24:21}. The 'Church' is protected by the Grace of God during the Tribulation: "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." {Heb 13:5} - It is not 'flown out' in some Rapture. They are confusing the wrath of God with the Tribulation of antichrist, God's wrath is not directed at the 'Church.' (The "Church" is the body of faithful believers, God's Elect). God's wrath occurs in the final minutes before the Millennium, and is His way of 'cleaning house,' so to speak.

Mid-Tribulation Rapturism:
This view is even more recent than pre-trib, becoming popular in 1941.
This view believes:

The final 7 year period of the world is called the Tribulation.
The last 3.5 years are called the Great Tribulation.
The last 3.5 years are considered the Wrath of God or the Day of the Lord.
Since the Church is not destined for God's wrath, then the Church is Raptured at the mid-way point.
This is wrong, wrong, wrong! The "Day of the Lord" is not the Tribulation, it is the end of it. The "Day of the Lord" is the thousand year period spoken of in {Rev 20:2-5} and referred to as the "Millennium," which begins at the Second Advent: "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." {2 Pet 3:8}. And this Rapture version is also in error, as in the first version, in that the Tribulation is only one event! This view also confuses the wrath of God with the Tribulation of antichrist.

Pre-Wrath Rapturism:
This view believes:

The Day of the Lord is called the Wrath of God. The Day of the Lord starts sometime in the second half of the 7 year period. Since the Church is not destined for God's wrath, the Rapture of the Church occurs immediately prior to the Day of the Lord.
The Pre-Wrath position is not a new position of the Rapture teaching Churches. The only thing that is new is the name. They view that the Church would see Antichrist and be removed prior to God's judgment.
This is also wrong, wrong, wrong, but they are getting closer to the truth. They rightly say that the 'Church' will be here for the setting up of satan's kingdom (Great tribulation) but the then err in saying that they will be removed just prior to the antichrist's (satan's) arrival. By them saying above that: "The Day of the Lord starts sometime in the second half of the 7 year period," what they in essence are saying is that the "Day of the Lord" is half a day, or a third.... That just doesn't work! And again, this Rapture version is also in error, as in the first two versions, in that the Tribulation is only one event! This view also once again confuses the wrath of God with the Tribulation of antichrist.

Post-Tribulation Rapturism:
Post-trib was by far the most popular opinion (among Rapturists) during the time of the Reformation (16th century), but cannot be traced to a specific starting point. There are a lot of variations on this view but in its classic sense post-tribbers believe:

The church must endure the entire 7-year period, to be Raptured at the end of the Tribulation. God will protect his children through His wrath.
This is also in error, but they are the closest to the truth out of all Rapture theories. But they fall off right at the end. They rightly say that the 'Church' will be here for the setting up of satan's kingdom (Great tribulation) and that they will be here for the time of the false messiah antichrist. Then they make a nonsensical statement, they say that they will be Raptured up into the clouds at the end of the Tribulation and then turn right around and come back with Jesus at His Second Advent - this makes no sense at all!

This version errs in that they feel that only a portion of the people on the planet (the 'Church') will be removed before the wrath of God, which in fact commences the "Day of the Lord." But there is no selective removal before God's wrath is executed on the ungodly. The 'Church' witnesses the destruction of the ungodly but is itself protected from it. Observe this Scripture showing that some are destroyed while others yet REMAIN and witness that destruction of the ungodly: "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven." {Rev 11:13}.

The fundamental error in all the above 'Rapture' scenarios is that they all, in one fashion or another, believe that at some point in time only a portion of the people will be removed. First of all, they misunderstand the Bible when it says that "all will be changed" to read "will be Raptured' The change is a change of body, it is us going from our flesh body into our spiritual body. and this happens to ALL people on the earth at Christ's coming AT THE SAME TIME! It is the consummation of the age, which is the beginning of the Millennium.

 

[WMarkB]

This entire thread (currently at 30 pages) is a textbook example of why so many want nothing to do with Christianity.

 

[cv5]

Except I never said I was an expert at it? I do know that the rapture is definitely Post-Trib though.

Ask yourself:
Should the wise mature scholars defer to the admittedly unlearned young neophyte?

Your posts betray your capabilities and understanding. Loud and clear.

And on this thread, as on all the others, the diligent and mature students (who are the ones proclaiming the pre-trib rapture) won the day. It wasn't even close. Happens every time BTW. Pre-tribbers batting 1000. Always.