There will be no Rapture!!!

[Truthnightmare]

I believe what happened in 70 AD was catastrophic.

Perhaps the destruction was catastrophic, Titus (Roman general) did do some damage.
However; We are told..
Matthew 24:2
And Jesus said unto them, “See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

To this day people travel to see the wailing wall, that would contradict no stone upon another.

 

[Cameron143]

My goodness brother.

Simply incredible you could have this rendering. Is this a form of amillennielism?

Are you aware that the world is by FAR getting worse, NOT better?

Not sure what relevance the supposed number of Christians there are has to anything.

That's one perspective. But the world is a far better place than 2000 years ago, and it's not even close. Medicine is far better. Food and water are far better. The use of machines has made work easier. In every aspect of life, things are better.
The kingdom of God has also grown by leaps and bounds. From 120 in the Upper Room to untold millions today.
Are we in a time of great peril...sure. But eventually people will again call upon the name of the Lord, repent, and seek His face. When that happens, God will again bless.
I realize if you just look at the last 50 years or so, things look bad. But honestly, what would you have predicted would happen as nations decided to kill babies and change the definition of marriage, and accept all manner of perversion? Isn't this the inevitable outcome?

 

[Cameron143]

Perhaps the destruction was catastrophic, Titus (Roman general) did do some damage.
However; We are told..
Matthew 24:2
And Jesus said unto them, “See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

To this day people travel to see the wailing wall, that would contradict no stone upon another.

Jesus was referring to the Temple. And not one brick was left.

 

[Truthnightmare]

That's one perspective. But the world is a far better place than 2000 years ago, and it's not even close. Medicine is far better. Food and water are far better. The use of machines has made work easier. In every aspect of life, things are better.
The kingdom of God has also grown by leaps and bounds. From 120 in the Upper Room to untold millions today.
Are we in a time of great peril...sure. But eventually people will again call upon the name of the Lord, repent, and seek His face. When that happens, God will again bless.
I realize if you just look at the last 50 years or so, things look bad. But honestly, what would you have predicted would happen as nations decided to kill babies and change the definition of marriage, and accept all manner of perversion? Isn't this the inevitable outcome?

When you say “machines have made work easier” have you taken into account…Ecclesiastes 7:29
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

 

[Cameron143]

When you say “machines have made work easier” have you taken into account…Ecclesiastes 7:29
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

I'm not sure what you mean but it's a lot easier to get to the top of a building in an elevator than taking stairs.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Jesus was referring to the Temple. And not one brick was left.

So when Jesus said See ye not all these things? You define “all these things” as temple?

Was Jesus also referring to the temple when he said…
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

 

[Cameron143]

So when Jesus said See ye not all these things? You define “all these things” as temple?

Was Jesus also referring to the temple when he said…
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Buildings can't flee. It's obviously speaking of people.
Are you familiar with the history of the seige of Jerusalem in 70 AD?

 

[Truthnightmare]

Buildings can't flee. It's obviously speaking of people.
Are you familiar with the history of the seige of Jerusalem in 70 AD?

Yes, I am familiar with the siege of Jerusalem in 70ad…. The real question is, are you familiar with Zechariah 14? Because it tells us exactly what the destruction of Jerusalem will be like… and the siege of 70ad doesn’t come close…. Observe…

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lordwill smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

 

[Cameron143]

Yes, I am familiar with the siege of Jerusalem in 70ad…. The real question is, are you familiar with Zechariah 14? Because it tells us exactly what the destruction of Jerusalem will be like… and the siege of 70ad doesn’t come close…. Observe…

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lordwill smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

There are both physical and spiritual realities for all those things during the life of Jesus leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem.

 

[Truthnightmare]

There are both physical and spiritual realities for all those things during the life of Jesus leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Ok, but the physical destruction described in Zechariah has not happened, thus the event of 70ad was not what Jesus was referring to.

I would encourage you to not attempt to try and spiritualize Zechariah’s events into the physical events of 70ad.

 

[Cameron143]

Ok, but the physical destruction described in Zechariah has not happened, thus the event of 70ad was not what Jesus was referring to.

I would encourage you to not attempt to try and spiritualize Zechariah’s events into the physical events of 70ad.

Noted. But I'll reserve deciding whether to take advice from someone who believes we began as angels.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Noted. But I'll reserve deciding whether to take advice from someone who believes we began as angels.

Again, angels are also referred to as . Angels are called "spirits" (Ps. 104:4. Heb. 1:7, 14),

So I’m actually saying when began as spirits..

Angels are souls (us) that are not in flesh bodies. When we are in Heaven we shall be angels, when we are here in the flesh we are humans, and when we existed before this world we were angels. Angels are not some other class of entities, they are simply children of God, "sons of God," when they are not on this earth in the flesh. That is also why angels have no separate genders, all angels in the Bible are portrayed a young males. There is no female sexual form in Heaven. Jesus hinted at this subject, but few catch the meaning: you being one.

Mark 12:18-29
18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,
19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.
21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.
22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.
23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry [male], nor are given in marriage [female]; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: KJV​

And just as Jesus was God in the flesh, so too are we angels in the flesh. But God is over all, as we are created beings (souls) but God is the Creator of all. The only way to destroy a soul, or an angel if you wish, is in the Lake of Fire; and only God can and will accomplish it after Judgment Day (Rev 20:11-15).

 

[Cameron143]

Again, angels are also referred to as . Angels are called "spirits" (Ps. 104:4. Heb. 1:7, 14),

So I’m actually saying when began as spirits..

Angels are souls (us) that are not in flesh bodies. When we are in Heaven we shall be angels, when we are here in the flesh we are humans, and when we existed before this world we were angels. Angels are not some other class of entities, they are simply children of God, "sons of God," when they are not on this earth in the flesh. That is also why angels have no separate genders, all angels in the Bible are portrayed a young males. There is no female sexual form in Heaven. Jesus hinted at this subject, but few catch the meaning: you being one.

Mark 12:18-29
18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,
19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.
21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.
22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.
23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry [male], nor are given in marriage [female]; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: KJV​

And just as Jesus was God in the flesh, so too are we angels in the flesh. But God is over all, as we are created beings (souls) but God is the Creator of all. The only way to destroy a soul, or an angel if you wish, is in the Lake of Fire; and only God can and will accomplish it after Judgment Day (Rev 20:11-15).

I do understand your argument. I don't agree with it.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Ok, but the physical destruction described in Zechariah has not happened, thus the event of 70ad was not what Jesus was referring to.

I would encourage you to not attempt to try and spiritualize Zechariah’s events into the physical events of 70ad.

Zechariah and the Prophecy of Jesus are about 2 separate events, not the same event.

 

[Truthnightmare]

I do understand your argument. I don't agree with it.

That’s ok, Christians won’t always agree, heck they won’t even always get along… as a matter of fact the disciples didn’t always get along…
Remember when James and John came to Jesus and tried to get a seat next to him in heaven, and the other disciples found out and were pissed.
Well you have a good night bro!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Thanks for the feedback buddy I appreciate it. I will be monitoring your frequency friend.

And no, I have never made any claim about anyone's salvation status.
Ever. Not once in all my time here.

Right, I don't believe you did.

But, on the other hand, supposedly us "pre-tribbers" will [most likely] "apostasize - fall away from the faith [i.e. LOSE / FORFEIT salvation]" when the man of sin shows up and we supposedly forget that the scripture states the first time we'll see Jesus is when we are "caught up TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR," and we will instead, most certainly think to ourselves, no, this guy in Kalamazoo, Michigan [i.e. terra firma] MUST BE JESUS!!" (thereby LOSING SALVATION!<---Is "salvation" really understood by the ones claiming such a scenario?? Doesn't seem so to me...imho)




( Wha?!?!?! LOL)

 

[presidente]

Remember, "parousia [/presence]" depends on CONTEXT (as to LOCATION and WHO ALL'S INVOLVED).




Paul is covering ALL SEVEN YEARS in his 2Th2 passage (besides the Subject of "our Rapture"), not merely ONE MOMENT / POINT IN TIME.

So you say, but where is there any evidence at all in this passage that supports your pretrib theory? And where is there any Scripture in the whole of the Bible that describes explains or predicts a pretribulational rapture?

And you're still overlooking the problem here that all this stuff happens in Jesus coming. you are trying to say is talking about a 7 year period. That's not the point. It is talking about when He comes and you ate positing multiple comings without evidence.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And you're still overlooking the problem here that all this stuff happens in Jesus coming. you are trying to say is talking about a 7 year period. That's not the point. It is talking about when He comes and you

Verse 7 does not say, "WHEN the Lord Jesus is revealed [VERB]"... you are injecting such INTO verse 7, but the Greek does NOT read this way.

It says, "IN THE REVELATION [NOUN] OF".



And as to your saying "all this stuff happens IN JESUS COMING" [parousia], well so does 1Th3:13's "[G1715] BEFORE the God and Father of us IN THE COMING / PAROUSIA of our Lord Jesus Christ with...," but you seem to want to leave that part out, in favor of viewing the "INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON" them as happening in a split-second moment of time, without good reason in view of what I'd put in past posts (about "MIGHTY angels" and the time-stamps corresponding precisely with the one speaking of the SPANS OF TIME between Rev4:1 and chpt 19 end, which is the 2520-day period leading up to His "RETURN" to the earth, as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom" [Lk12:36-37,38 - "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN "the meal [G347; re: the earthly MK age]).

The part saying "God SHALL SEND TO THEM strong delusion, THAT THEY should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" is a PART of that "[INFLICTING] VENGEANCE [ON]" (and does NOT commence at His Second Coming to the earth, nor is its DURATION that "singular 24-hr day," nor "instant / moment-in-time".)


"The REVELATION OF Jesus Christ, which God GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants things which MUST COME TO PASS *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*..." refers to the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book, starting in 4:1 ("SHEW"), the specific, future, LIMITED time-period we commonly call "The Tribulation Period" (2520 days / 7 yrs [of 360 days each]);


...which brings me to another point:


--"the tribulation" = "7 yrs" (2520 days); whereas "the GREAT tribulation" = 3.5 yrs (1260 days);


--SIMILARLY, "the day of the Lord" = "7-yr Trib & MK age" (includes 2nd Coming WITHIN that very long spans);
yet "the GREAT and TERRIBLE/DREADFUL day of the Lord" is the second half of Trib (and to its conclusion);
and "the great and AWESOME [/MANIFEST] day of the Lord" is when He will be VISIBLY/OPENLY MANIFEST (like 1Tim6:15/Rev19:15/17:14 speaks to; and like 2Th2:8b speaks to [at the end of the "7 yrs"]).

One mistake people often make is to incorrectly EQUATE the "moon into/became as BLOOD" [6th Seal] ("BEFORE the GREAT" aspect of it), per Joel 2:31, with that of the phrase "moon SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT" which takes place "AFTER the tribulation of those days" (after the second half). But these are NOT identical descriptors (one being "red"; the other NOT), NOR identically "time-stamped".








Again, wherever the phrases "the day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" are used in the SAME CONTEXTS in Scripture (OT), as they are here in 2Th1 & 2 also[!], they are referring to the SAME TIME PERIOD (not a split-second moment in time, nor even "a singular 24-hr day")

 

[presidente]

Verse 7 does not say, "WHEN the Lord Jesus is revealed [VERB]"... you are injecting such INTO verse 7, but the Greek does NOT read this way.

It says, "IN THE REVELATION [NOUN] OF".

I addressed this earlier, didn't I? There is a reason some translators translate the Greek 'en' as when, but it is a moot point, because 'hota' (when) is used in these verses from the same chapter.

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Pretrib doesn't have Jesus taking vengeance on them that know not God when he comes to be glorified in His saints. Rather, pretrib has teaches Jesus comes part-way down, the church get their glorified bodies, the ungodly say 'peace and safety', see a peace treaty, then has Jesus come back and execute vengeance on them that know not God.

That's not the same thing.

And do you notice, you don't actually offer any evidence for a pretribulational rapture in these posts. You strain and grasp at straws to try to figure out a way to try to make this passage somehow not contradict pretrib (ignoring the important contradiction in this case).

Where is the evidence for pretrib? Where does the Bible say that the Lord Jesus is coming back two more times? Why isn't there a pretrib rapture of the church there at the beginning of Revelation 4?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

That's TRIB-STUFF (spans of time)

9 Who shall be [future tense] punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When ["whenever a specified condition is fulfilled"] he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

1) This doesn't say "when He comes TO GLORIFY His saints";

2) THIS IS speaking of His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19), when He sends them away to "everlasting punishment"; But this only speaks of v.9's things (whereas vv.7-8 are the TRIB YEARS which PRECEDE that point in the chronology, and LEAD UP TO it--everything we see in Rev[4:1 onward] chpts 6-19 (the 7 yrs of JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth); and JESUS FROM HIS POSITION IN HEAVEN INITIATING that entire time-period BY HIS OPENING THE FIRST SEAL (i.e JUDGMENT; "STAND to JUDGE" as Isa3:13 states, see Rev5:6 as well as the "worthy to" passages)

Pretrib doesn't have Jesus taking vengeance on them that know not God when he comes to be glorified in His saints.

The sentence doesn't say that. (Read my posts on that point again.)

"RED" is TRIB YRS ^ ; "PURPLE" is His Second Coming to the earth (Rv19) point in time ^ .

Rather, pretrib has teaches Jesus comes part-way down, the church get their glorified bodies, the ungodly say 'peace and safety', see a peace treaty, then has Jesus come back and execute vengeance on them that know not God.

No, He does so FROM HIS POSITION IN HEAVEN (see again Rev5:6 at the START of the Trib, when He will OPEN THE FIRST SEAL, its effects upon the earth shown starting in 6:2... and proceeds onward from there--Jesus doesn't "COME BACK" to "INFLICT" this "VENGEANCE" on them, He does so FROM HEAVEN (for the 7-yr period) with his "MIGHTY angels," and ONLY AFTER that, the "WHEN" of verse 10 takes place at His Second Coming (covering what VERSE 9 is about).