There will be no Rapture!!!

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 10, 2023

^ Interesting verse here, BTW:

Genesis 42:21 - [Joseph's Ten Brothers Sent To Egypt During the 7 Year Famine]

"[BSB] Then they said to one another, “Surely we are being punished because of our brother. We saw his anguish when he pleaded with us, but we would not listen. That is why this distress [LXX - tribulation - G2347] has come upon us.”

"[KJV] And they said one to another, We are verily guilty concerning our brother, in that we saw the anguish of his soul, when he besought us, and we would not hear; therefore is this distress [LXX - tribulation - G2347] come upon us.

[reflective of another point I've made in past posts, about the future trib's "purpose" (one of its purposes)]

cv5 · Sep 10, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

Indeed the salvation of Israelites is the primary purpose for the tribulation.
The other purpose is to save gentile souls as well.

The Rev 9:5-6 -five months of "no dying" during which humans are tormented by the demonic hordes.....is in fact a act of mercy. Why so?

Because God is giving them a foretaste of what it is like in the lake of fire. Suffering, pain and demonic hellish torments without death.....aka eternal dying. That has got to be a huge wake up call.

That which they must assiduously avoid by repenting and receiving the Lord Jesus as Savior.

presidente · Sep 11, 2023

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TheDivineWatermark said:

Paul also wrote in I Thessalonians 4, 'we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...'

Paul didn't know that he and the others of that generation would pass before Christ returned, but the principal applies for the church, whatever generation. There is a word for that that I think you have also used.

So, back in their day, they were already experiencing "persecutionS and tribulationS" (v.4)...

The persecutors of the church will experience the judgments described when Jesus comes back. Whether Paul's individual readers were alive or not. Matthew 24 also shows us that the coming of the Son of Man happens after the tribulation. The same word is used there for 'tribulation' as for 'trouble' in II Thessalonians 1.

The passage also indicates the church will be here when Jesus comes.

I mean, both of us (I think) believe the time-period we call "The Tribulation Period" (occurring in the specific, future, limited years leading up to Christ's 2nd Coming to the earth) has NOT YET been in existence... Yet, the Thessalonians, back in the first century, were ALREADY experiencing "persecutionS and tribulationS ye endure"... and "they that trouble [G2346] you" [present tense].

How does this help your case (in your most recent post, here)?? I'm not seeing it.

Pre-tribbers do NOT deny that "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [that's US] has experienced "persecutions and tribulations" ALL THROUGHOUT its existence SINCE THE FIRST CENTURY... (we are not waiting for the future "7-yr period" IN ORDER to EXPERIENCE it!)

Let's talk about what the scripture has said. II Thessalonians 1 shows us that when Jesus comes back, the church receives rest from the tribulation. Your trying to make the passage be about the tribulation before Jesus comes back also.

You'll post at great length arguing that the DOTL is a period of time, or where you think certain scriptures fit into the pretrib timeframe.

But where is your evidence for pretrib that justifies assuming it is right and trying to fit scriptures into that way of dividing up time? The Bible speaks of the coming of Christ. Where is the scripture that indicates that this is two events? I ask this over and over and over again and do not get this response.

cv5 · Sep 11, 2023

presidente said:

Incorrect.

"When Jesus comes back", the only "JUDGEMENTS" per se is the "sheep and goat judgments" of the nations. This pertaining to ISRAEL. Not the Church.

Everyone else, the enemy armies and their leaders, are "summarily executed" in effect very rapidly "when Jesus comes back". No long drawn out judgements.

2Th 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

The long drawn out, escalating in intensity JUDGEMENTS/VENGEANCE/WRATH against those who are persecuting believers (consisting of war, famine, plagues, waters turned to blood, meteor strikes, wormwood, earthquakes, gigantic hail, darkness, demons from the abyss etc etc etc) all occur BEFORE the Second Coming!

This "sheep and goats judgement occurs after the 2520-th day, evidently in the 75 day period so noted in Dan 12:12.

Why do you insist that war, famine, plagues, waters turned to blood, meteor strikes, wormwood, earthquakes, gigantic hail, darkness, demons from the abyss etc etc etc occur WHEN JESUS COMES BACK????? They don't.

Your entire model of end-times eschatology needs to be scrapped. It is an irrational incoherent unbiblical mess.

The_Watchers_2017 · Sep 11, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

i allowed this to just sit for days to realize and fully understand the Deception that You are deceived by, not just within your mind, but deep within the inner core of your heart.

Look what Paul writes in the First Verse:

2 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and [[our being gathered]] together to him

Let's concentrate on this portion of the Verse more carefully: OUR BEING GATHERED...

Now, let's examine specifically the word ""OUR"" [being gathered]

Paul, is INCLUDING himself in this Rapture.
He is saying this is WHEN he will be Raptured and when ALL of us will be Raptured.

Notice, not before this time but it is THIS TIME that Paul says HE WOULD BE RAPTURED!.

Why is this IMPORTANT?
Because this Rapture, that PAUL says HE will be Raptured at, happens [[[AFTER]]] the AntiChrist is Revealed!

Paul, completely destroys YOUR FALSE DOCTRINE of Pre-Trib Rapture by saying when HE [PAUL] and the rest of us will be Raptured, it will HAPPEN ""AFTER"" the AC is Revealed.

So, look at Verse 1 again:
2 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him

Paul is saying HE is being GATHERED [Dead or ALIVE] at this point!

He completely destroys Your entire platform and Idealism with this single Verse!!

If ANYONE represented the CHURCH, it was PAUL.
And he claims he is Raptured AFTER the AC is revealed
He also claims ALL of us [OUR BEING GATHERED TOGETHER TO HIM] this is OUR Rapture Point [[AFTER]] the AC is revealed.

And you never caught this because you are BLINDED by your own LIES, not just this False Pre-Trib Doctrine.

cv5 · Sep 11, 2023

The_Watchers_2017 said:

Friend......your assertion is what is known as "a swing and a miss".
Whereas @TheDivineWatermark is batting 1000 as regards his rapture debate winning streak.

It ain't even close buddy.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 11, 2023

The_Watchers_2017 said:

Of course he is,

... because in the word "OUR" Paul is referencing "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," of whom he [Paul] is also a member ['body-part,' if you will].

Why would you think I'm saying otherwise??

This doesn't upset the applecart (not sure why you think it does), because Paul is saying, We beseech you brethren, BY [huper - 'in the interests of the truth about' ] the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our episynagoges UNTO HIM [i.e. our Rapture IN THE AIR], THAT ye be not soon shaken in mind or be TROUBLED ["clamor, tumult" [...] unsettled (thrown into confusion [...](disturbed), wanting to "cry aloud, to scream (passive) because terrified"[...]; thrown into an "emotional uproar," i.e. very upset (alarmed, startled)"] [...then lists 3 sources of the false claim-->] as that [purporting that] the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE."

[Recall, Paul in his earlier letter states "the DOTL" ARRIVES "exactly like [hosper ] the INITIAL "birth PANG"... Jesus spoke of those in the PLURAL, and they ARE EQUIVALENT the SEALS of Rev6 at the START OF the "IN QUICKNESS [noun; Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1]" time period we now commonly call "the 7 yr Tribulation Period"--starting with SEAL #1--rider on the wht horse WITH A BOW ['deception']"--Matt24:4's / Mk13:5's "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]"--the "whose COMING / ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia" of the "man of sin" "IN HIS TIME" (this is NOT at the point in the chronology when he "SITTETH in the temple of God" 2:4b, but well prior to that... just as Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 comes well before Matt24:15,21 / Mk13:14,19]

The false claim is something they would easily have believed (and been TROUBLED BY) BECAUSE of their present and ongoing experiences, per 1:4, which tells us, "the persecutionS and tribulationS YE ENDURE"... which made the false claim seem like something legit. So Paul says, We beseech you brethren BY ['in the interests of the truth about' ] our Rapture, not to be shaken in mind, or troubled by the false claims saying the day of the Lord is already here / is present.

(Think: WHY would this cause "shaken in mind / TROUBLED" if this had been taught them to be the expected thing?)

Verse 15, basically saying, BELIEVE US, not them (v.2's false claim)!

The_Watchers_2017 · Sep 11, 2023

cv5 said:

you are so lost you have even accepted a specific Septuagint that has added 100 years to the lineage of Seth.

Paul said, that is when He and us, as in OUR GATHERING, takes place AFTER the revealing of the Holy Spirit.

Paul, only wrote what JESUS told him to.

So, this is JESUS saying when He Returns!

You and Watermark are so lost about this, it's actually a Shame unto the rest of the true Followers of God.

The_Watchers_2017 · Sep 11, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

Of course he is,

... because in the word "OUR" Paul is referencing "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," of whom he [Paul] is also a member ['body-part,' if you will].

Why would you think I'm saying otherwise??

This doesn't upset the applecart (not sure why you think it does), because Paul is saying, We beseech you brethren, BY [huper - 'in the interests of the truth about' ] the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our episynagoges UNTO HIM [i.e. our Rapture IN THE AIR], THAT ye be not soon shaken in mind or be TROUBLED ["clamor, tumult" [...] unsettled (thrown into confusion [...](disturbed), wanting to "cry aloud, to scream (passive) because terrified"[...]; thrown into an "emotional uproar," i.e. very upset (alarmed, startled)"] [...then lists 3 sources of the false claim-->] as that [purporting that] the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE."

[Recall, Paul in his earlier letter states "the DOTL" ARRIVES "exactly like [hosper ] the INITIAL "birth PANG"... Jesus spoke of those in the PLURAL, and they ARE EQUIVALENT the SEALS of Rev6 at the START OF the "IN QUICKNESS [noun; Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1]" time period we now commonly call "the 7 yr Tribulation Period"--starting with SEAL #1--rider on the wht horse WITH A BOW ['deception']"--Matt24:4's / Mk13:5's "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]"--the "whose COMING / ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia" of the "man of sin" "IN HIS TIME" (this is NOT at the point in the chronology when he "SITTETH in the temple of God" 2:4b, but well prior to that... just as Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 comes well before Matt24:15,21 / Mk13:14,19]

The false claim is something they would easily have believed (and been TROUBLED BY) BECAUSE of their present and ongoing experiences, per 1:4, which tells us, "the persecutionS and tribulationS YE ENDURE"... which made the false claim seem like something legit. So Paul says, We beseech you brethren BY ['in the interests of the truth about' ] our Rapture, not to be shaken in mind, or troubled by the false claims saying the day of the Lord is already here / is present.

(Think: WHY would this cause "shaken in mind / TROUBLED" if this had been taught them to be the expected thing?)

whatever dude!

You are literally making things up.

Paul tells us AFTER the AC is revealed and that Paul is included in this ONE TIME Rapture, but you choose to twist it.

Everyone, is SEEING what you are doing!

The_Watchers_2017 · Sep 11, 2023

The_Watchers_2017 said:

AC, not HS

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 11, 2023

presidente said:

Again, you are inserting the idea "WHEN Jesus comes back" (there is NO "WHEN" in v.7), where instead it is STATING THE FACT OF "rest / repose with us IN THE REVELATION OF"; you are also inserting "RECEIVES rest [WHEN]" (where just the fact "rest / repose with us IN" is what it states); This is not a LIST.

Again, it is the SAME issue in 2 Thess 2, let me show again, how so:

I'd posted:

[AGAIN... But here I'll put the COLORING so you can grasp my point better... RED for TRIB STUFF, PURPLE for SECOND COMING STUFF]

[after mentioning the MOS's "be revealed" earlier in verse 3b]

6and now, what is keeping down ye have known, for his being revealed in his own time,
7for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now [will hinder] — till he may be out of the way, 8and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom [identifying 'who'] the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence [parousia],
9[him,] whose presence [parousia / arrival / advent] is according to the working of the Adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders,
10and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved,
11and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,
12that they may be judged — all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness.

Now, just because v.8b is saying, "WHOM the Lord SHALL... and SHALL..." does not mean that v.8b is occurring IN THE MIDST OF THE "RED" TIME-PERIOD (v.8a and vv.9-11).

It is just saying, this guy who ARRIVES (and does all that particular stuff) is the guy "whom the Lord SHALL..." do this and that to, when He returns at His Second Coming to the earth time-slot.

It does NOT mean that everything in this very long sentence from verse 6-12 (per ylt) is ALL happening at "the manifestation of the parousia of Him / Jesus" (v.8b) [Christ's Second Coming to the earth, when "every eye shall SEE Him"), on that singular 24-hr day in which He RETURNS (Rev19).

Jimbone · Sep 11, 2023

cv5 said:

Yet not one of you can answer the 3rd temple dilemma that debunks ANY future judgements against the covenant breakers in Jerusalem.

God's temple has to be commanded to be built by God, otherwise it's just a man's temple, or at least that was His design for the first two.

The cannon of scripture is closed now and nowhere in scripture are we commanded to build a 3rd temple, unless you can show me where.

This causes a HUGE problem for ANY futurist view. Not to mention the Jesus Himself looked His disciples in the eyes and told them ALL THESE THINGS will happen before this generation passes, and it did EXACTLY as He said it would. So either your very prideful victory cry over all these threads is bogus, or Jesus was wrong and by extension a false prophet and not to be feared by Gods standard. The painful fact here is both can't be true at the same time, so either you're wrong or Jesus is, and I believe He achieved ALL VICTORY just as the scriptures before Him said He would.

I praise God for showing me how well the truth fit's scripture without charts, inference, or a guru to explain it to understand. Nothing fits Gods word better that the post mil view that I've been shown. With your pre-trib view you HAVE to add to scripture for it to even look possible.

So please have a great time at your victory party, good job I like it here in the looser corner.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 11, 2023

The_Watchers_2017 said:

Paul (in v.1) is bringing the Subject of "our Rapture" TO BEAR ON the matter of the False Claim of v.2, "that the day of the Lord is present / is here [perfect indicative]."

At the other end of the passage, in v.15, he basically states, believe US / what WE taught you, not THEM (false claimants of v.2).

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 11, 2023

In verse 3, Paul states, "that day [from v.2] will not be present because if not shall have come [_____...<skip this next word for the moment, for the purpose of this post>...] and the man of sin be revealed..."

This is saying, that WHEN the man of sin "be revealed," THEN ALSO / AT THAT SAME TIME "the day of the Lord WILL [indeed] BE PRESENT" (that which the false claimants [v.2] were purporting was already present, in their day).

[he is "revealed" at Seal #1, at the START of the Trib yrs; Paul makes same point in 1Th5:1-3, as I've shown in past posts about the ARRIVAL of the DOTL]

cv5 · Sep 11, 2023

Jimbone said:

Suit yourself friend.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 11, 2023

Jimbone said:

I'm pretty sure my words will not in any way convince you

, but I'm just putting this here for the readers to consider:

... in Luke 21:32, He says, "This generation shall not pass away TILL ALL shall have taken place."

And that "ALL" must necessarily include the items He had just spoken of in Verse 24 [70ad events+],

...which latter part of that verse says, "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations [70ad events], AND Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN OF the Gentiles UNTIL the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled"

(the "TIMES" of the Gentiles NOT referring to "the Church age" as some suppose; but speaks of Gentile domination over Israel [Neb's "dream / statue / image" with Neb as "head of gold"] which "UNTIL" does not conclude [per Rev11:2] until Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19, yet future);

IOW, v.32's "ALL" necessarily includes v.24's "of-very-lengthy-duration" things, including its own "UNTIL".

cv5 · Sep 11, 2023

The_Watchers_2017 said:

"Making up" a beautifully parsed, ineffably logical boilerplate case proving the pre-trib rapture that would make Thurgood Marshall blush with envy.

cv5 · Sep 11, 2023

Jimbone said:

I won't if it happens. Oooppps correction: WHEN it happens.

cv5 · Sep 11, 2023

Jimbone said:

Yup. From Luke 21:12 thru 24. Definitely. The other stuff......not so much.

Luk 21:12
But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Luk 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Isa 11:11
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

cv5 · Sep 11, 2023

Jimbone said:

Here you go friend. Pardon me if there is the odd chart or graph or matrix somewhere in here......

http://watchmanbiblestudy.com/BibleStudies/HIStoryOurFuture/Ezekiels430Days.html

There will be no Rapture!!!

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