There will be no Rapture!!!

[TheDivineWatermark]

The thing is, the dead rises first before those who are alive at the [...]

May I ask, what do you mean by "the dead [in Christ] rises first BEFORE those who are alive..."

Are you, by chance, among those who mistakenly believe this text is stating that the dead in Christ will be caught up BEFORE those who are still-alive will be caught up (as in, the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" will ARRIVE at the meeting OF THE LORD in the air AFTER the dead in Christ meet Him there BEFORE the rest of the Body does)??

Many people DO mistakenly believe this is what the text is conveying, so you're not alone.

But the text isn't saying that. It is saying there will be ONE snatch-action (harpazo - G726) for both components of the One Body... that is, the dead in Christ will RISE first (i.e. be bodily resurrected ['to stand again' (on the earth)]) before we'll be "caught up TOGETHER [WITH THEM]"--that is, "caught up [verb] together [adverb ; meaning, AT THE SAME TIME that they are also 'caught up']"--It is NOT that "the dead in Christ" will be "caught up first" before the "we which are ALIVE" ones are caught up. No.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

May I ask, what do you mean by "the dead [in Christ] rises first BEFORE those who are alive..."

Are you, by chance, among those who mistakenly believe this text is stating that the dead in Christ will be caught up BEFORE those who are still-alive will be caught up (as in, the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" will ARRIVE at the meeting OF THE LORD in the air AFTER the dead in Christ meet Him there BEFORE the rest of the Body does)??

Many people DO mistakenly believe this is what the text is conveying, so you're not alone.

But the text isn't saying that. It is saying there will be ONE snatch-action (harpazo - G726) for both components of the One Body... that is, the dead in Christ will RISE first (i.e. be bodily resurrected ['to stand again' (on the earth)]) before we'll be "caught up TOGETHER [WITH THEM]"--that is, "caught up [verb] together [adverb ; meaning, AT THE SAME TIME that they are also 'caught up']"--It is NOT that "the dead in Christ" will be "caught up first" before the "we which are ALIVE" ones are caught up. No.

Just read it plainly. It's not complicated.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

You make it sound like it will take some considerable time before those who are alive will be collected and transformed but:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable (again they shown to be first), and we will be changed (again shown to be changed immediately after the dead).

So this whole process doesn't take a long time. It only takes a moment. It's just that there is an actual order: the dead first and then those who are alive.


In light of what these verses state clearly, if the dead in Christ will rise first at the last trumpet after the great tribulation, then there is no pre-tribulation rapture for Christians alive before the great tribulation. Please prepare to endure to the end.


🦪

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Just read it plainly. It's not complicated.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

You make it sound like it will take some considerable time before those who are alive will be collected and transformed but:

No, that was NOT my point at all.

My point is:

--that "the dead in Christ shall RISE first" speaks to their being bodily resurrected from the dead--that is "first" before the NEXT thing, which is...

--"THEN [right after the above-mentioned] we which are ALIVE and remain [i.e. those of the One Body who hadn't DIED prior to this point] SHALL BE CAUGHT UP [verb] TOGETHER [adverb] WITH them in the clouds TO THE MEETING OF THE LORD IN THE AIR..." . The VERB and the ADVERB correspond, meaning, "caught up AT THE SAME TIME" that they are [also] caught up (i.e. in ONE SINGULAR "snatch-action" AT ONCE! NOT two distinct instances of "G726 caught up," moments apart, AT ALL--But ONLY ONE/ONCE! ["CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them"]).






It seems you (like many) are trying to make the "shall RISE first" mean (incorrectly) "caught up first," which it does not... Not even mere moments apart, whatsoever.






I'm NOT making the point that you are suggesting I was making. = )

(My point HERE had nothing whatsoever to do with the distinction in timing between "our Rapture [G726] [IN THE AIR]" and His "Return" to the earth... I'm not covering that in these two recent posts to you... Just to be clear.)

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

No, that was NOT my point at all.

My point is:

--that "the dead in Christ shall RISE first" speaks to their being bodily resurrected from the dead--that is "first" before the NEXT thing, which is...

--"THEN [right after the above-mentioned] we which are ALIVE and remain [i.e. those of the One Body who hadn't DIED prior to this point] SHALL BE CAUGHT UP [verb] TOGETHER [adverb] WITH them in the clouds TO THE MEETING OF THE LORD IN THE AIR..." . The VERB and the ADVERB correspond, meaning, "caught up AT THE SAME TIME" that they are [also] caught up (i.e. in ONE SINGULAR "snatch-action" AT ONCE! NOT two distinct instances of "G726 caught up," moments apart, AT ALL--But ONLY ONE/ONCE! ["CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them"]).

It seems you (like many) are trying to make the "shall RISE first" mean (incorrectly) "caught up first," which it does not... Not even mere moments apart, whatsoever.

I'm NOT making the point that you are suggesting I was making. = )

(My point HERE had nothing whatsoever to do with the distinction in timing between "our Rapture [G726] [IN THE AIR]" and His "Return" to the earth... I'm not covering that in these two recent posts to you... Just to be clear.)

Mmmm... You tend to muddy and complicate what is said in the Bible. So I'm just going to go with what the Bible says. It is very clear. If you think I and many others are wrong with doing that, I'm fine with it.


🦪

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Mmmm... You tend to muddy and complicate what is said in the Bible. So I'm just going to go with what the Bible says.

"caught up TOGETHER WITH them" means there is ONE instance of "caught up"... not TWO.

I am reading the verse and explaining its grammar... which demands such an understanding



...rather than how you seem to have explained the text: hinting at TWO distinct instances of being "caught up"... moments apart... as though the "we which are alive" ones will MEET the dead in Christ IN THE CLOUDS/IN THE AIR who will have ALREADY arrived there "first" [NO!], just a moment/moments before them (as though "caught up" at distinct moments)... which is NOT what the text itself is spelling out.




"caught up TOGETHER with them"

(...MEANS, "caught up AT THE SAME TIME"... NOT one group "caught up" and THEN the next "caught up," at separate moments! NO!)




"the dead in Christ SHALL RISE first" is NOT meaning "shall RISE to the CLOUDS *first*". NO.


--"caught up TOGETHER WITH them..." (that's ONE "snatch-action"... not two!)

Mmmm... You tend to muddy and complicate what is said in the Bible. So I'm just going to go with what the Bible says.

I'm pointing out how you are butchering the grammar so as to come up with a "two-distinct-harpazo-actions"... but the text itself is saying otherwise.

One group is NOT "caught up" just moments BEFORE the other group in this text...

... rather "caught up TOGETHER WITH them" (ONCE / ONE "snatch-action"... not two distinct moments!)

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

"caught up TOGETHER WITH them" means there is ONE instance of "caught up"... not TWO.

I am reading the verse and explaining its grammar... which demands such an understanding

...rather than how you seem to have explained the text: hinting at TWO distinct instances of being "caught up"... moments apart... as though the "we which are alive" ones will MEET the dead in Christ IN THE CLOUDS/IN THE AIR who will have ALREADY arrived there "first" [NO!], just a moment/moments before them (as though "caught up" at distinct moments)... which is NOT what the text itself is spelling out.

"caught up TOGETHER with them"

(...MEANS, "caught up AT THE SAME TIME"... NOT one group "caught up" and THEN the next "caught up," at separate moments! NO!)

"the dead in Christ SHALL RISE first" is NOT meaning "shall RISE to the CLOUDS *first*". NO.

--"caught up TOGETHER WITH them..." (that's ONE "snatch-action"... not two!)

I'm pointing out how you are butchering the grammar so as to come up with a "two-distinct-harpazo-actions"... but the text itself is saying otherwise.

One group is NOT "caught up" just moments BEFORE the other group in this text...

... rather "caught up TOGETHER WITH them" (ONCE / ONE "snatch-action"... not two distinct moments!)

You're the one claiming two distinct harpazo actions are being read into it. I've made no mention of that at all. I'm just talking about what those verses are saying about the order in which the dead and the alive are being raised and transformed. Nothing more.

You're making much ado about nothing and over-complicating this.


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[Musicmaster]

I believe you may have MISread Musicmaster.




I don't believe he was making that point (in your quote at top ^ ), if I'm not mistaken,... re: 1Th4:16 and 1Cor15:51.

Some of what I wrote was under the heading of what I should have said is "generally speaking," which would indicate that I'm speaking generally in addressing other things I have encountered among other people and groups.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

The phrase "the GREAT tribulation" refers only to the SECOND HALF of the seven year period (what follows on from the AOD at the MID-point).

Many folks mistakenly label the ENTIRE 7-yr period "great tribulation"... but that is a misnomer.

[so, no... this couldn't have been what Musicmaster had been conveying, that you have mis-read in his post/s]

Where it's true that that one word "great" is applied mostly to the latter half, I've been thinking upon this as to if it's truly a dividing line of the importance that some people place upon it. I've already shown the math the text gives to us in the numbers who die in each half, and it shows to us that just as many people die in the "great" part as does in the first half at the opening of the first four seals. It's ALL tribulation, ALL of which is a descriptor of times that are worse in "greater" measure than any other time since the flood, for nothing else compares.

So, I'm beginning to have doubts that the text places so much emphasis upon that descriptor as some today seem to place upon it. In a number of places the number of months are the most clear indicators of far greater precision.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

It's such a Biblical injustice how you are using 1 Thessalonians 5:9.
When Paul wrote this he was ALIVE but the Destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple was coming.
Do you know how Paul DIED?
At the hands of WRATH.

This verse simply means the Wrath to Come is Eternal Damnation.

And like most who preach deception of this verse, you have used it for your views in Tribulation related to the Rapture.

Well done in showing your true hand.

That lacks convincing evidence, especially when we consider that the city and the temple destruction are not at all a part of the context. It's well understood that the context is clearly about the day of the Lord, which is also only understood to be about the tribulation, which is where the wrath of the Lord is poured out in both halves upon all who are on this earth tat that time.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

As a natural born Jew this should be an easy one for you because you would have known this in Mikra and if smart enough Mishnah.

Devarim 32:
8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9 But the YHVH's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.

Clement is using the Torah but it has no relationship to the Tribulation.

Are you trying to connect this to Revelation?

And if so, look what happened to YHVH's Portion (Jacob/Israel) for the sake of the Gentiles:
8
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”




The Church is indeed caught after the LAST CONTEST of Righteous.
He said it perfectly.
In the END... and then explains what the end is.............Tribulation, which is the LAST CONTEST of Righteous.

If I ever gave the impression that I care at all what those people wrote, then I do apologize. I'm sticking strictly to the Bible. My Israeli up-bringing did indeed focus upon the various writings of the traditions and teachings of ancient times. I'm not going to name them all to impress anyone, just saying that I have not walked away from my Israeli roots so much as I have abandoned the religious leanings of the ancients. There is rich history within those sources, all of which greatly impresses me in various ways, but their take on interpretational analysis is wanting.

The same goes for the Nicene and post-Nicene writers. I care not at all for anything they had to say apart from what is actually written within inspired scripture. I don't care if they were personally taught by John himself, that doesn't remove from their remembrances any and all measure of subjective memory and thought because non of their writings are said to have been inspired by any authoritative source.

What we DO know is that warps and twists were already at work in John's own experiences when he tried to deal with people like Diotrephes. That taints the entire portraiture the followers of those "other" men's writings love to paint back over, as superimpositions, covering over the textual meanings of the scriptures, as if those other men can possibly share anything of value that is greater than what John wrote to us in his treatise in 1 John 2:27.

So, hey, go for it. You can follow those "other" writers, even if they sat at the feet of John, we have no reason to follow them. If you want to follow them, then go for it, but your subjective warping of 1 Thessalonians 5 into allegedly speaking of 70 AD...no! You have not a thread to hang upon that will hold any measure of the water you may want to pour into that vessel.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Ok, so generally speaking, this is interesting:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (preceed) them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (NOT the seventh trumpet blast of the seventh angel that some inject into this): and the dead in Christ shall rise first (this is future tense, not present or past):
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon says this about the word translated as "prevent" in the above passage:

"we shall not get the start of those who have fallen asleep, i. e. we shall not attain to the fellowship of Christ sooner than the dead, nor have precedence in blessedness, 1 Thessalonians 4:15 "

Yeah, there seems to be both elements in this text, one pointing to a parallel-in-time catching up AND the dead rising first and then the living. So what? Either way, nobody will float over to Christ and complain about the order, if any, as if it al all matters!

The dead will be raised up first, then we will join them in the ascent, and we all will enter in together...must be a really wide doorway...

It helps to quote the actual text rather than to make claims from afar, with no frame of reference, that's why I quoted it here.

MM

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Ok, so generally speaking, this is interesting:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (preceed) them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (NOT the seventh trumpet blast of the seventh angel that some inject into this): and the dead in Christ shall rise first (this is future tense, not present or past):
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon says this about the word translated as "prevent" in the above passage:

"we shall not get the start of those who have fallen asleep, i. e. we shall not attain to the fellowship of Christ sooner than the dead, nor have precedence in blessedness, 1 Thessalonians 4:15 "

Yeah, there seems to be both elements in this text, one pointing to a parallel-in-time catching up AND the dead rising first and then the living. So what? Either way, nobody will float over to Christ and complain about the order, if any, as if it al all matters!

The dead will be raised up first, then we will join them in the ascent, and we all will enter in together.

It helps to quote the actual text rather than to make claims from afar, with no frame of reference, that's why I quoted it here.

MM

Pre-tribbers always claim that they will be raptured before the great tribulation. But there's no collecting God's people who are still alive until AFTER the dead are raised. That happens after the great tribulation at the seventh/last trumpet which IS the trump of God (I already covered this). So there is no pre-tribulation rapture.


🦪

 

[Musicmaster]

It's such a Biblical injustice how you are using 1 Thessalonians 5:9.
When Paul wrote this he was ALIVE but the Destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple was coming.
Do you know how Paul DIED?
At the hands of WRATH.

This verse simply means the Wrath to Come is Eternal Damnation.

And like most who preach deception of this verse, you have used it for your views in Tribulation related to the Rapture.

Well done in showing your true hand.

That is pure nonsense! I took the time and effort to show to you the actual definitions of the key words from the original Greek, and this is all you come up with?!?

Do you honestly think that personal zinger statements prove anything in your favor? I applied scholarship in my response, and all you offered is personal opinion! Reading loads and loads of uninspired articles and treatise filled with other people's opinions will not ever gainsay anything we may glean from scripture in it's original meaning, which side-steps the weaknesses of our English translations! On top of that, none of those other writings will ever fill in what only Holy Spirit can fill in as shown to us from 1 John 2.

So, if you want to rely on all those other people's yammerings, then go for it. Some of it is truth, and some of it is error. A little leaven leavens the whole loaf, which is a statement from the Lord that goes beyond the borders of meaning than just the text.

MM

 

[presidente]

There will be no pre or mid tribulation rapture. This is an invention of the dispensationalists. The Pre-Rapture was invented by the dispensationalist John Darby in the 19th century. It did not exist before that. Church history did not know a Pre-Rapture before the 19th century.

The Bible clearly states that Christians must go through the Tribulation, for Revelation 20:4 describes how Christians will be beheaded for their faith during the Tribulation. If there really was a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then logically there would be no Christians in the Tribulation, but because there will be Christians in the Tribulation, that means there will be no Pre-Tribulation Rapture! Revelation 13:7 also declares that Christians will be given into the hand of the Antichrist, which means the Antichrist may overcome Christians and kill them.

Jesus will return only once and that is after the tribulation. Then he will gather all Christians.

But why do you say the saints will not be caught up to meet theors in the air at the return of Christ like I Thessalonians 4 teaches? That is what the rapture means.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

That lacks convincing evidence

Probably as much to the Sanhedrin in Yeshua's day.

Here's the context 1 Thessalonians chapter 5:9
9 because God did not appoint us to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ


It's clearly talking about not going to hell because we're saved.

9
ὅτι
because

οὐκ
not

ἔθετο
has destined

ἡμᾶς
us

ho
ὁ

Θεὸς
God

εἰς
for

ὀργὴν
wrath

ἀλλὰ
but

εἰς
for

περιποίησιν
obtaining

σωτηρίας
salvation

διὰ
through

τοῦ
the

Κυρίου
Lord

ἡμῶν
of us

Ἰησοῦ
Jesus

Christou
Χριστοῦ

Impossible to twist it any other way without creating new content for verse 9, IMPOSSIBLE!

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

If I ever gave the impression that I care at all what those people wrote, then I do apologize.

You quoted them and even misused them out of the context of the Rapture itself concerning Clement.

And I would imagine you would not care about anything that proves you wrong.

Most of us can also claim some sort of Chakham title. But it doesn't give us the permission to change up meaning.

 

[Musicmaster]

Probably as much to the Sanhedrin in Yeshua's day.

Here's the context 1 Thessalonians chapter 5:9
9 because God did not appoint us to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ


It's clearly talking about not going to hell because we're saved.

9
ὅτι
because

οὐκ
not

ἔθετο
has destined

ἡμᾶς
us

ho
ὁ

Θεὸς
God

εἰς
for

ὀργὴν
wrath

ἀλλὰ
but

εἰς
for

περιποίησιν
obtaining

σωτηρίας
salvation

διὰ
through

τοῦ
the

Κυρίου
Lord

ἡμῶν
of us

Ἰησοῦ
Jesus

Christou
Χριστοῦ

Impossible to twist it any other way without creating new content for verse 9, IMPOSSIBLE!

Dude, I twisted nothing! I quoted the Lexical definition that doesn't play upon the usual weaknesses of English translations, AND that do NOT clearly differentiate WHICH of the numerous definitions of key words that most people seem to think they can arbitrarily choose, by way of personal opinion such as what you are doing! That's nothing short of EISEGETICAL implantation of your own personal meaning into the text that simply doesn't fit the original narrative as guided by the grammatical constructs and lingual meaning within the Greek!

Again, the lack of impressiveness in showing mere Greek lettering once again fails to grapple with the deeper scholarship behind that passage that clearly fails to support your premise and conclusion! Your usual failures in presenting anything convincing in support of your groundless accusations yet again shows to us the weaknesses in your hermeneutical approach.

MM

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Ok, so generally speaking, this is interesting:

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be with them caught up together in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Matthew 24:30
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and all the tribes of the land shall wail, and shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:26
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

Luke 22:27
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming on a cloud with power and great glory.


The Bible is in perfect Harmony.

When does Matthew, Mark, and Luke say Jesus/Son of Man comes on the CLOUDS?

The verse before them...29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days..."

Paul has to match Jesus, not the other way around!

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Dude, I twisted nothing! I quoted the Lexical definition that doesn't play upon the usual weaknesses of English translations, AND that do NOT clearly differentiate WHICH of the numerous definitions of key words that most people seem to think they can arbitrarily choose, by way of personal opinion such as what you are doing! That's nothing short of EISEGETICAL implantation of your own personal meaning into the text that simply doesn't fit the original narrative as guided by the grammatical constructs and lingual meaning within the Greek!

Again, the lack of impressiveness in showing mere Greek lettering once again fails to grapple with the deeper scholarship behind that passage that clearly fails to support your premise and conclusion! Your usual failures in presenting anything convincing in support of your groundless accusations yet again shows to us the weaknesses in your hermeneutical approach.

MM

Lexicon's are someone's "PERSONAL" translation.

Afraid to use a General translation from the Scholars, but rather use someone's own personal translation.

I bet you also use Expositor Bibles of your favorite preacher that matches your personal beliefs as well.

 

[Musicmaster]

You quoted them and even misused them out of the context of the Rapture itself concerning Clement.

And I would imagine you would not care about anything that proves you wrong.

Most of us can also claim some sort of Chakham title. But it doesn't give us the permission to change up meaning.

Yeah, yeah. We've all been hearing all that for some time now, and what you seem to be missing is that I don't give a rat's petoot what Clement wrote! You presonally, along with however many others, placing such great emphasis upon Clement and others is nothing but jangling and clamoring of writings that are NOT INSPIRED! Why can't you seem to grasp that? You can argue proximity and historicity all you want, but it all is nothing but logical fallacies and hermeneutic slaughter.

You follow Clement and his seeming authority, and I will follow the scriptures since scripture itself declares that the very word of God is what is good for teaching, reproof, correction and rebuke. Clement and gang...nothing!

MM