Time and once saved

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RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
8,474
227
63
#1
The OSAS debate consist mainly of endless repetitions of 3 points:



1. Once we are His, God will never let us go

2. There are those who have/will taste of salvation, and turn away

3. Those who tasted and turned away were never part of us.




It's easy to let numbers 1 and 3 over-rule number 2, and that's what OSAS proponents will do. But, dang it, ya just can't do that. You can. not. ignore those scriptures. You can't taste of without being part of. But the OSASers ask the right question, how could they be part of us while never being part of us? And how can someone walk away from God without violating God's promise to never let us go? It's hard to wrap one's mind around, thus all the either-or debate.


I floated an idea in another thread about how that could be. I was challenged on it and have been doing my homework. Like so many things Biblical I found scriptures that grouped together to say two different things. So I put it out to you guys for input.

It has to do with time. And the question of whether God is constrained to time. I posted a thread asking when did time start, is that an eternal thing or a created thing http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/165496-when-did-time-start.html . That led to a poll, asking whether God was constrained to time or free to come and go in time as He pleased http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/165542-time-eternity.html . Those who responded seemed to think that He can come and go as he pleases. The OP of the poll details how that might work, but the jist is that eternity and time are like a wheel, God/eternity existing in the hub can like randomly inserted spokes reach out and act (in our view) in any point in time, at (in God's point of view) any time. With the example being that God can do something with us now, and then go do something that to us is already past.

In other words, God has the ability to do what we would call time-travel.



W'atsa this got to do with OSAS you say.


And that goes back to what I proposed in the earlier thread.


God's sitting in the hub/eternal and watches Bob pray the sinner's prayer on the rim/time. So God puts a marker in time, so to speak, and says from this point onward I will never let you go. So Bob lives on several years. For decades he's part of us, involved and even bringing others to Christ. You can't get much more part of us than that. But then he gets caught up in the world and backslides. He's living in sin but God holds on. But Bob sinks farther. satan and the world take hold of his heart, and Bob gets maneuvered into a place of having to reaffirm Christ. Having lost his true love, he denies God and stops believing.

God, in the eternal/hub, reaches out to time/the rim, and removes Bob's marker, which was the basis of His promise.

Bob was with us for 20 years. And yet, God is able to make it so he never was. And if he never was, he never had God's promise.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
1,143
126
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#2
God doesn't do time travel, rather time is within Him. He is the future and the past (with regards to created things).

On OSAS, i have never thought of debating this issue because i'll admit it- i don't know, but i'll state here what i know:

1. Salvation is not a result of some prayer. The sinners prayer is not a thing. When people say "..i was saved on this date, in this year..blah bla blah...", i know they lie without even trying.

2. Saved- The word itself is in past tense, so an indicator that it is the result of a process and at the very end is when it happens.

3. Salvation comes when one believes in the heart and confesses with their mouth that Jesus is Lord- the process starts there and the end result is salvation.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,808
557
113
#3
In other words, God has the ability to do what we would call time-travel.
You are letting your imagination run riot. God does not do "time-travel" since, as I already pointed out, time means nothing to God. And there is no point coming up with imaginary scenarios. God has known all things from long before they have occurred, and He knows everything which will happen in future. And only God Himself can fully comprehend this.

As to OSAS, the correct term would be the eternal security of the believer, and that has been guaranteed by God in a number of ways. After all salvation is of the Lord.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
2,933
44
48
#4
You could look at it like this, if faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.


1. Once we are His, God will never let us go

Once the LORD speaks to you then the question of your faith is forever settled.

2. There are those who have/will taste of salvation, and turn away

Well, maybe they didn't actually hear the Spirit of Truth.

3. Those who tasted and turned away were never part of us.

Ps 119:103-105
103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
 
Mar 14, 2011
52,980
1,326
113
#5
Osas, Eternal security, Eternal life (whatever you want to call it) is based on this truth

WHoever believes in me will

1. Never die
2. Never hunger or thirst
3. Live forever
4. Has passed from death to life (eternal)
5. Given Gods assurance he WILL raise them on the last day
6. Given ETERNAL LIFE which they have in their possession (if it could be lost, it is not eternal it is conditional)
7. Based on Gods promise Not our goodness
8. Based on Gods character, Not our worthiness
9. Sealed by the spirit
10. Assured forever, (He who began a good work WILL COMPLETE it, and he has PERFECTED FOREVER those who he is sanctifying.

their is 10 reason based on ten promises God has given all who are his. There are many many more.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
2,108
134
63
#6
Your time travel idea is interesting - I don't know that I agree or disagree with it. I just know that we cannot from a finite mortal perspective understand all of these things - and we don't have to understand all of them to be saved.

I believe in the eternal security of the believer, but not of the unbeliever. I have not found any place where the Bible clearly state that once a person is saved, they will always be saved.

I do find your analogy intriguing, but maybe mostly because I agree with your conclusion. My caution is that human analogies and finite thought can never fathom the depth of the Divine!
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
8,474
227
63
#7
Nehemiah, I'll admit that "Time travel" is not really the best term, as it is a human term, but it's the best I can come up with to describe the process that our human minds can understand.

Z, eternally, you are doing exactly what I am trying to avoid - dismissing all the scriptures that establish point 2. Scriptures supporting point 3 cannot be used to dismiss those that support point 2, because NONE of God's word can be dismissed for ANY reason.

Thus this exercise in trying to surmise a way that ALL scriptures can be true even when they seemingly contradict each other.

I'm open to other ideas, except those that dismiss scripture... ANY scripture.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
4,978
524
113
#8
The OSAS debate consist mainly of endless repetitions of 3 points:



1. Once we are His, God will never let us go

2. There are those who have/will taste of salvation, and turn away

3. Those who tasted and turned away were never part of us.




It's easy to let numbers 1 and 3 over-rule number 2, and that's what OSAS proponents will do. But, dang it, ya just can't do that. You can. not. ignore those scriptures. You can't taste of without being part of. But the OSASers ask the right question, how could they be part of us while never being part of us? And how can someone walk away from God without violating God's promise to never let us go? It's hard to wrap one's mind around, thus all the either-or debate.


I floated an idea in another thread about how that could be. I was challenged on it and have been doing my homework. Like so many things Biblical I found scriptures that grouped together to say two different things. So I put it out to you guys for input.

It has to do with time. And the question of whether God is constrained to time. I posted a thread asking when did time start, is that an eternal thing or a created thing http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/165496-when-did-time-start.html . That led to a poll, asking whether God was constrained to time or free to come and go in time as He pleased http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/165542-time-eternity.html . Those who responded seemed to think that He can come and go as he pleases. The OP of the poll details how that might work, but the jist is that eternity and time are like a wheel, God/eternity existing in the hub can like randomly inserted spokes reach out and act (in our view) in any point in time, at (in God's point of view) any time. With the example being that God can do something with us now, and then go do something that to us is already past.

In other words, God has the ability to do what we would call time-travel.



W'atsa this got to do with OSAS you say.


And that goes back to what I proposed in the earlier thread.


God's sitting in the hub/eternal and watches Bob pray the sinner's prayer on the rim/time. So God puts a marker in time, so to speak, and says from this point onward I will never let you go. So Bob lives on several years. For decades he's part of us, involved and even bringing others to Christ. You can't get much more part of us than that. But then he gets caught up in the world and backslides. He's living in sin but God holds on. But Bob sinks farther. satan and the world take hold of his heart, and Bob gets maneuvered into a place of having to reaffirm Christ. Having lost his true love, he denies God and stops believing.

God, in the eternal/hub, reaches out to time/the rim, and removes Bob's marker, which was the basis of His promise.

Bob was with us for 20 years. And yet, God is able to make it so he never was. And if he never was, he never had God's promise.
There's really nothing new here Ricky. Your post boils down to Bob having to keep himself saved through his behavior.
Couple points. I think we'd all agree tasting is different than ingesting. I can taste bread all day long, but if I don't ingest it I won't receive any of it's calories or nutrients. Same with wine. I can swill it around, taste it, smell it, then spit it out, but if I don't imbibe it, I will never get the effects of it.

Same with Christ. I can hear the Word, go to Church, even preach Jesus, but if I never received Him, never truly believed who He is, and what He has done, then I was never His, because He never knew me, and made me a new creation.
 
Mar 14, 2011
52,980
1,326
113
#9
Nehemiah, I'll admit that "Time travel" is not really the best term, as it is a human term, but it's the best I can come up with to describe the process that our human minds can understand.

Z, eternally, you are doing exactly what I am trying to avoid - dismissing all the scriptures that establish point 2. Scriptures supporting point 3 cannot be used to dismiss those that support point 2, because NONE of God's word can be dismissed for ANY reason.

Thus this exercise in trying to surmise a way that ALL scriptures can be true even when they seemingly contradict each other.

I'm open to other ideas, except those that dismiss scripture... ANY scripture.
Point 2 is refuted by those things I posted. Not to mention, it is refuted by 1 John (they went from us but they were never of us) thus point 2 is a mute point. (If you use taste as meaning a person was saved at one point in his/her life)

Now their may be people that tasted the gospel. and the gift as they are blessed by others who have been changed by the gift.. But that does not mean they were ever saved.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,005
235
63
#10
It’s not ignoring Scriptures, it’s not agreeing with certain interpretations of them.

Do you believe if you turn away you can never ever repent? Of course not, that’s because that Scripture is telling us to not go back under the system of Law because if Christ isn’t enough, there is not enough.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
8,474
227
63
#11
It’s not ignoring Scriptures, it’s not agreeing with certain interpretations of them.

Do you believe if you turn away you can never ever repent? Of course not, that’s because that Scripture is telling us to not go back under the system of Law because if Christ isn’t enough, there is not enough.
Ignoring is the wrong word. Sorry. Yes, it is interpretations. Mostly :)

I don't know ... as I've said before I hope the OSASers are right. But I read and meditate and study again and it just clearly states - there will be some who have been saved that will turn away. And that even tho they were with us, the record will show that they never were. And yes, once blotted from the Book names cannot be written back in. I think if we could somehow visualize how that could happen without violating God's promise, we would understand a little better. But ... I'm just an idiot with a finite mind trying to understand an infinite creator. Whadda I know, eh?

Funniest part is we'll all get there and find out we were all wrong ... about everything :)


 

Lewiz

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2018
346
19
18
#12
Osas, Eternal security, Eternal life (whatever you want to call it) is based on this truth

WHoever believes in me will

1. Never die
2. Never hunger or thirst
3. Live forever
4. Has passed from death to life (eternal)
5. Given Gods assurance he WILL raise them on the last day
6. Given ETERNAL LIFE which they have in their possession (if it could be lost, it is not eternal it is conditional)
7. Based on Gods promise Not our goodness
8. Based on Gods character, Not our worthiness
9. Sealed by the spirit
10. Assured forever, (He who began a good work WILL COMPLETE it, and he has PERFECTED FOREVER those who he is sanctifying.

their is 10 reason based on ten promises God has given all who are his. There are many many more.
John 11
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Benson:
John 11:26. And whosoever liveth — That Isaiah , 1 st, A natural life; whosoever lives in this world, whether he be Jew or Gentile, and wherever, in whatever country or age he lives; and believeth That is, believeth while he liveth in this world, while he is here, in this state of probation; for, after death, it will be too late to believe. Or, 2d, Whosoever believeth, and liveth a spiritual life, and continues to believe, that he may continue so to live. For he that lives and believes, is he that lives by faith, a faith that influences his conversation: he that, by faith, is born again to a heavenly, holy, and divine life; to whom, to live is Christ, and whose life is continually derived from Christ. Such a one shall never die.

Since continuing faith saves us(he that endureth until the end, the same shall be saved), what happens when a christian rebels & stops believing?
Saying they weren't saved in the first place doesn't cut it.
Saying a true christian can't possibly rebel from God is unbiblical, therefore it's unproveable.

Sure, there's many scriptures that say God will not forsake us, but there's about as many saying christians can forsake Him.

If we don't forsake Him, God will keep every promise He made to us.

If we rebel & forsake God, there no longer remains a sacrifice for our sins. (Heb 10:26)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
15,114
1,007
113
#13
Osas, Eternal security, Eternal life (whatever you want to call it) is based on this truth

WHoever believes in me will

1. Never die
2. Never hunger or thirst
3. Live forever
4. Has passed from death to life (eternal)
5. Given Gods assurance he WILL raise them on the last day
6. Given ETERNAL LIFE which they have in their possession (if it could be lost, it is not eternal it is conditional)
7. Based on Gods promise Not our goodness
8. Based on Gods character, Not our worthiness
9. Sealed by the spirit
10. Assured forever, (He who began a good work WILL COMPLETE it, and he has PERFECTED FOREVER those who he is sanctifying.

their is 10 reason based on ten promises God has given all who are his. There are many many more.
Amen! Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
15,114
1,007
113
#14
If we rebel & forsake God, there no longer remains a sacrifice for our sins. (Heb 10:26)
In regards to Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21) not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).
 

NoNameMcgee

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
4,871
900
113
#15
Osas, Eternal security, Eternal life (whatever you want to call it) is based on this truth

WHoever believes in me will

1. Never die
2. Never hunger or thirst
3. Live forever
4. Has passed from death to life (eternal)
5. Given Gods assurance he WILL raise them on the last day
6. Given ETERNAL LIFE which they have in their possession (if it could be lost, it is not eternal it is conditional)
7. Based on Gods promise Not our goodness
8. Based on Gods character, Not our worthiness
9. Sealed by the spirit
10. Assured forever, (He who began a good work WILL COMPLETE it, and he has PERFECTED FOREVER those who he is sanctifying.

their is 10 reason based on ten promises God has given all who are his. There are many many more.
amen brother...
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
30,294
1,208
113
#16
Wrong.....

Written to those who have believed-----> "IF" we believe not, HE ABIDES FAITHFUL because he CANNOT DENY HIMSELF.

End of story......HIS BLOOD, HIS RIGTEOUSNESS, HIS FAITH, HIS WORK, HIS JUSTIFICATION has been applied BY FAITH and OUR BIRTH is a SPIRITUAL BIRTH of INCORRUPTABLE SEED which is ETERNAL and SUSTAINED by the power of GOD......
 
Mar 14, 2011
52,980
1,326
113
#17
John 11
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Benson:
John 11:26. And whosoever liveth — That Isaiah , 1 st, A natural life; whosoever lives in this world, whether he be Jew or Gentile, and wherever, in whatever country or age he lives; and believeth That is, believeth while he liveth in this world, while he is here, in this state of probation; for, after death, it will be too late to believe. Or, 2d, Whosoever believeth, and liveth a spiritual life, and continues to believe, that he may continue so to live. For he that lives and believes, is he that lives by faith, a faith that influences his conversation: he that, by faith, is born again to a heavenly, holy, and divine life; to whom, to live is Christ, and whose life is continually derived from Christ. Such a one shall never die.

Since continuing faith saves us(he that endureth until the end, the same shall be saved), what happens when a christian rebels & stops believing?
Saying they weren't saved in the first place doesn't cut it.
Saying a true christian can't possibly rebel from God is unbiblical, therefore it's unproveable.

Sure, there's many scriptures that say God will not forsake us, but there's about as many saying christians can forsake Him.

If we don't forsake Him, God will keep every promise He made to us.

If we rebel & forsake God, there no longer remains a sacrifice for our sins. (Heb 10:26)
There is a few MAJOR problems with this..1. Continuing belief is required. No place in scripture is this said, If this were true in the passage we are discussing, Jesus would have had to say, Whoever believes in me will never hinger never thirst, Never die, Live forever, Has eternal life, and be risen on the last day AS LONG AS they continue to believe. He does not say that. And he would mst certainly not be able to use the terms "never" and "Forever" as those are Never ending terms of things Jesus said would be given the moment they believe. if it could be lost for ANY reason. Jesus would have to give the reason, or say MAY never, MAY live forever, etc etc.

The second issue is the issue that if a person was saved and rebelled in unbelief, they had to have lost salvationm, to say otherwise is as you put it "doesn't cut it"

Well it does. In fact the bible tells us this,, A person who rebells and denys christ is an antichrist, and the apostle john says anyone who was walking among us, but left us and is not an antichrist (unbeliever) has NEVER BEEN A PART OF US, for IF They WERE OF US, they NEVER WOULD HAVE LEFT.

I am sorry but Mr Benson is flawed in his logic, and wrong about his interpretation of this passage.

Jesus said, Do not work for food which dies, but for food which ENDURES FOREVER, which he will give us

If the food he gave us which he promised would last forever. would ever die (lose its ability to keep us alive) then Jesus is a liar. plain and simple. this the whole passage is meaningless.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
8,474
227
63
#18
I had hoped this wouldn't become an osas thread, but one discussing how all scriptures can be made to speak in harmony instead of being played against each other.

But I knew it was inevitable ;) !
 
Mar 14, 2011
52,980
1,326
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#19
I had hoped this wouldn't become an osas thread, but one discussing how all scriptures can be made to speak in harmony instead of being played against each other.

But I knew it was inevitable ;) !
Lets see, You open a thread with this...

The OSAS debate consist mainly of endless repetitions of 3 points
but you was hoping it would not turn into an OSAS debate.

really?


oh brother.jpg
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
8,474
227
63
#20
it was supposed to be an exercise in how to make seemingly conflicting scriptures agree with each other without twisting distorting or dismissing them. But yes, I know this crowd, and where this was going to end up LOL