Time and once saved
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Quite the opposite. The New Testament is full of Scripture which speaks of the eternal security of the believer. We could list dozens of Scriptures in this connection, but if your mind is already made up, it would make no difference.
Take the example of Abraham -- the prime example given to us of a sinner who believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness. Was Abraham always faithful after he believed God? Not if you read his history. Did that mean that Abraham was not deemed to be righteous because of his faith? Hardly.
Take the example of Abraham -- the prime example given to us of a sinner who believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness. Was Abraham always faithful after he believed God? Not if you read his history. Did that mean that Abraham was not deemed to be righteous because of his faith? Hardly.
One night after feeding the 5000, Christ told his disciples to head out into their boat ahead of him while he went to pray for a while on the mountainside. There was a strong wind churning the waves, knocking the boat about. Before sunrise Christ went walking out on water towards the boat...
This freaked everyone out thinking it was a Ghost, but Christ assured them that it was just him and to not be afraid.
Peter said, "well if it's you, tell me to come out to you to the water." And Christ said "Come!"
----
No natural man can step out on water without sinking, and in those choppy waters it would be hard to swim so death is a likelihood.
But Peter had faith that if it was Christ - and if Christ commanded Peter - that Peter could walk on the water to get to Christ. Not because of Peter's own power but because he knew that Christ would keep him and would never let him sink while walking.
Point 1 is true.
----
So Peter stepped out of the boat and walked towards Christ successfully. The only other man to walk on water in the history of mankind...but he wasn't able to do it for long. Something changed. He saw how strong the wind was and became afraid and immediately started to sink, crying out to Christ, "SAVE ME LORD!"
Immediately Christ grabbed him and said, "ye of little faith. Why did you doubt?", climbing back into the boat.
----
Again point 1 is true. But if that's so, why did Peter start to sink into the water if it's Christ's power alone that keeps him from sinking to his death? Christ's power alone kept him afloat. Christ's power alone keeps Peter safe from the consequences. Well scripture explains it's because Peter lost faith. Peter doubted Christ and immediately started to sink.
Did Peter taste the saving power of Christ by walking on water? Yes.
If Peter never lost faith in Christ, would he ever have stared to sink? No...But he did lose faith.
Point 2 is also true.
Scripture says "without faith it's impossible to please God". Impossible. So can someone walk away from God without violating his promise to keep them safe in his hand? I say "yes" because his promise is conditional on their faith in him.
Such is a covenant. Both parties have requirements in the new covenant: We're required to believe in Christ to be saved, and God promises to save the believer. Our entire regenerated life is an act of walking on water like Peter. It's why we're considered the "cloud" of witnesses while the rest of the nations, peoples and tongues are considered the "sea" the beast ascends from. This means we must maintain our faith to stay above water.
Salvation is by grace through faith. Without faith we can't remain safe.
This freaked everyone out thinking it was a Ghost, but Christ assured them that it was just him and to not be afraid.
Peter said, "well if it's you, tell me to come out to you to the water." And Christ said "Come!"
----
No natural man can step out on water without sinking, and in those choppy waters it would be hard to swim so death is a likelihood.
But Peter had faith that if it was Christ - and if Christ commanded Peter - that Peter could walk on the water to get to Christ. Not because of Peter's own power but because he knew that Christ would keep him and would never let him sink while walking.
Point 1 is true.
----
So Peter stepped out of the boat and walked towards Christ successfully. The only other man to walk on water in the history of mankind...but he wasn't able to do it for long. Something changed. He saw how strong the wind was and became afraid and immediately started to sink, crying out to Christ, "SAVE ME LORD!"
Immediately Christ grabbed him and said, "ye of little faith. Why did you doubt?", climbing back into the boat.
----
Again point 1 is true. But if that's so, why did Peter start to sink into the water if it's Christ's power alone that keeps him from sinking to his death? Christ's power alone kept him afloat. Christ's power alone keeps Peter safe from the consequences. Well scripture explains it's because Peter lost faith. Peter doubted Christ and immediately started to sink.
Did Peter taste the saving power of Christ by walking on water? Yes.
If Peter never lost faith in Christ, would he ever have stared to sink? No...But he did lose faith.
Point 2 is also true.
Scripture says "without faith it's impossible to please God". Impossible. So can someone walk away from God without violating his promise to keep them safe in his hand? I say "yes" because his promise is conditional on their faith in him.
Such is a covenant. Both parties have requirements in the new covenant: We're required to believe in Christ to be saved, and God promises to save the believer. Our entire regenerated life is an act of walking on water like Peter. It's why we're considered the "cloud" of witnesses while the rest of the nations, peoples and tongues are considered the "sea" the beast ascends from. This means we must maintain our faith to stay above water.
Salvation is by grace through faith. Without faith we can't remain safe.
I agree with your analogy about faith, which is what manifests what Christ did, but I believe the covenant of God is between the Father and the Son. Not between us and God. We enter into the Son’s covenant. I do separate the difference between salvation and discipleship. One saves, and causes a new birth experience, and in this experience we find ourselves in Christ. And the other forms our soul into being more like Him. Here our mind is renewed to our unity in Him and we begin to reveal the Vine as His branches.
Yahshua,
WOW, what a great post! In my opinion, this is one of the best posts on the entire site. Not because it fully explains salvation (in fact, in simply reading this post I don't even know what you believe is required for salvation). But it does show how real faith works.
I'd love to go on about what I like about it but think it best to stop here for now.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
WOW, what a great post! In my opinion, this is one of the best posts on the entire site. Not because it fully explains salvation (in fact, in simply reading this post I don't even know what you believe is required for salvation). But it does show how real faith works.
I'd love to go on about what I like about it but think it best to stop here for now.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
CS1,
Thanks for posting this. I would "like" it but didn't because I don't want people to get the impression that I am a 'Calvinist'. Personally, I rather hate almost every label put on people...because labels seem only to blind us to the idea that the person we are talking to is a PERSON, not a DOCTRINE... And, as your post highlights to me at least, people who don't follow a particular doctrine probably don't realize what that doctrine really even says...so it's unlikely their label gives an accurate picture of either the person OR the doctrine.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Thanks for posting this. I would "like" it but didn't because I don't want people to get the impression that I am a 'Calvinist'. Personally, I rather hate almost every label put on people...because labels seem only to blind us to the idea that the person we are talking to is a PERSON, not a DOCTRINE... And, as your post highlights to me at least, people who don't follow a particular doctrine probably don't realize what that doctrine really even says...so it's unlikely their label gives an accurate picture of either the person OR the doctrine.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Although I can see how one might see this passage in the way you do, I believe your conclusions are completely wrong.
This is an account that should bolster, NOT detract, from eternal security. The reason Peter began to sink was precisely BECAUSE he wasn't relying on CHRIST'S power, not because HE needed to do more.
Peter took his eyes off the Lord, looked at the situation he was in, and what he was doing, walking on water. He lost power by focusing on his problem not his solution.
BUT, the greatest lesson of the passage, the one that gives us more assurance of eternal security, is that EVEN THOUGH Peter lost faith, and lost power, JESUS STILL SAVED HIM! Immediately!
Jesus didn't say "Oh well, tough luck Peter, you had a nice run of faith, but now you have to drown and forever be lost, because you lost faith in Me and My abilities". NO! He IMMEDIATELY reached out and saved him. Why? Because of these reasons: 1 John 3:20 [FONT="]For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.
[/FONT]2 Timothy 2:11 This is a faithful saying:[FONT="][FONT="]For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 IF WE ARE FAITHLESS,
HE REMAINS FAITHFUL;
HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF
So Peter DID NOT deny who Jesus was. We know this because he called out to the Lord to save him in his lack of faith.
If you are a born again Child of God, He will NEVER leave nor forsake you, and if you lose faith in the power he gave you through the Holy Spirit, He will STILL ALWAYS be there to pull you out from drowning.
Be Blessed with the knowledge of this reassurance![/FONT]
[/FONT]
This is an account that should bolster, NOT detract, from eternal security. The reason Peter began to sink was precisely BECAUSE he wasn't relying on CHRIST'S power, not because HE needed to do more.
Peter took his eyes off the Lord, looked at the situation he was in, and what he was doing, walking on water. He lost power by focusing on his problem not his solution.
BUT, the greatest lesson of the passage, the one that gives us more assurance of eternal security, is that EVEN THOUGH Peter lost faith, and lost power, JESUS STILL SAVED HIM! Immediately!
Jesus didn't say "Oh well, tough luck Peter, you had a nice run of faith, but now you have to drown and forever be lost, because you lost faith in Me and My abilities". NO! He IMMEDIATELY reached out and saved him. Why? Because of these reasons: 1 John 3:20 [FONT="]For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.
[/FONT]2 Timothy 2:11 This is a faithful saying:[FONT="][FONT="]For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 IF WE ARE FAITHLESS,
HE REMAINS FAITHFUL;
HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF
So Peter DID NOT deny who Jesus was. We know this because he called out to the Lord to save him in his lack of faith.
If you are a born again Child of God, He will NEVER leave nor forsake you, and if you lose faith in the power he gave you through the Holy Spirit, He will STILL ALWAYS be there to pull you out from drowning.
Be Blessed with the knowledge of this reassurance![/FONT]
[/FONT]
So you don't believe that "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) had a starting point? Do you merely understand "have been saved through faith" as have been placed on probation in the present with the hope of actually being saved in the future? John 5:24 - "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." This is a present possession for believers.
Justification "having been justified by faith" is in the past tense, with ongoing results (Romans 5:1). Ongoing sanctification is a process.
Justification starts there and the process of ongoing sanctification begins and the end result is glorification. Salvation has three tenses (which often get mixed up) 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (Justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (Ongoing Sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (Glorification)
Justification "having been justified by faith" is in the past tense, with ongoing results (Romans 5:1). Ongoing sanctification is a process.
Justification starts there and the process of ongoing sanctification begins and the end result is glorification. Salvation has three tenses (which often get mixed up) 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (Justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (Ongoing Sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (Glorification)
LOL!!!!!!!!!!! Unreal ^^^^
Jesus says "I never knew you" not "You never existed because I deleted you."
Have to comment on the above scenario: It is one of the most asinine statements I've ever heard in my life by someone who believes they assist Christ in saving themselves. Also, it doesn't speak well of the God of Scriptures, his attributes, character or nature. That must go along with the territory though; his very character and nature are up for grabs in the lose salvation ideology.
Since Scripture doesn't support losing salvation illogical scenarios along with eisegesis must be drummed up to buffer their errant beliefs.
The bottom line is human pride cannot trust solely in the salvation God provides. Human pride must take some of the credit, and in the end human pride cannot admit this to be the truth of the matter. Either Christ saved you wholly by his own work, or you think you're assisting him in behavior, works or keeping on doing something.
Now onto this:
My other comment is how the OP, along with his absurd comment and scenario above ever thought after he'd spoken of osas numerous times could be so disingenuous concerning how this thread would, um, be exactly about the OP.
Jesus says "I never knew you" not "You never existed because I deleted you."
Have to comment on the above scenario: It is one of the most asinine statements I've ever heard in my life by someone who believes they assist Christ in saving themselves. Also, it doesn't speak well of the God of Scriptures, his attributes, character or nature. That must go along with the territory though; his very character and nature are up for grabs in the lose salvation ideology.
Since Scripture doesn't support losing salvation illogical scenarios along with eisegesis must be drummed up to buffer their errant beliefs.
The bottom line is human pride cannot trust solely in the salvation God provides. Human pride must take some of the credit, and in the end human pride cannot admit this to be the truth of the matter. Either Christ saved you wholly by his own work, or you think you're assisting him in behavior, works or keeping on doing something.
Now onto this:
I had hoped this wouldn't become an osas thread, but one discussing how all scriptures can be made to speak in harmony instead of being played against each other.
But I knew it was inevitable !
But I knew it was inevitable
!
That's because Calvin is describing and explaining the true Gospel and evidence of conversion, what others today blast as "Lordship Salvation" yet this Gospel had been preached throughout church history so it is not only Calvin who preached it. Along with derogating this true Gospel teaching any mention of works, conformity to Christ, evidence of salvation, the necessity of sanctification, godliness, holiness &c are all maligned as "Preaching a works Gospel!!!"
The easy-believe-ism false gospel has permeated Christendom, therefore any mention of the true Gospel and all of its descriptive language of a true believer are rejected.
Many gospels today are variants of some sort or degree of antinomianism.
Amen to 1 John 3 and 2 Timothy 2...but I think we're overlooking a small but important detail in the example that I underlined in your post...
Do you suppose Peter still would have been saved from drowning if he never cried out asking to be saved?
"Eternal" means without beginning or end. So eternal security means there's no moment when one even has to ask to be saved.
Do you suppose Peter still would have been saved from drowning if he never cried out asking to be saved?
"Eternal" means without beginning or end. So eternal security means there's no moment when one even has to ask to be saved.