Timeline of Church History

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StMichaelTheArchangel

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#21
Continued:

EVER-VIRGIN
From the very early years of the Church, Mary was called not only Virgin, but Ever-Virgin. She was seen as never having had a sexual union with Joseph, before or after the birth of Christ. Ezekiel 44:1, 2 is a passage often referred to by the early Fathers in this regard. It states: "Then He brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary which faces toward the east, but it was shut. And the LORD said to me, `This gate shall be shut; it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter by it, because the LORD God of Israel has entered by it; therefore it shall be shut.' "In traditional interpretation of this passage, Mary is the temple and Christ is the Prince of Peace. The gate mentioned is seen as a picture of Christ's passage through the door of Mary's womb. You might not find that interpretation in some of today's commentaries, but it was held by the great majority of early Church Fathers, as well as many of the Reformation leaders. At this point, however, a very valid question can be raised. If she remained a virgin, why does the Gospel of Matthew tell us that Joseph knew not his wife until Christ was born (Matthew 1:25)? From a scriptural standpoint, the presence of the phrase, "until she had brought forth her firstborn Son" does not automatically mean that Joseph must have known her afterward. This is because in both Greek and Hebrew the word until or to can have several different meanings. We find it in 2 Samuel 6:23: "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children to [until] the day of her death". It is used again in Matthew 28:20 where the risen Christ says "Lo, I am with you always, even to [until] the end of the age". And in Deuteronomy 34:6 we read that Moses was buried "in a valley in the land of Moab . . . but no one knows his grave to [until] this day". Obviously the use of the word in these passages does not imply that Michal had a child after her death, that Christ will depart at the end of the age, or that Moses' burial place was discovered the day Deuteronomy 34:6 was written. By the same token, the word until in Matthew 1:25 does not mean that Joseph and Mary began a sexual union after Christ was born. Such a teaching is found nowhere in Scripture and is contrary to the consistent voice of the entire early Church. But doesn't the Bible also mention other brothers and sisters of Christ? Who are they and where did they come from? For one thing, they are never directly called the sons and daughters of Mary and Joseph. In several passages the Bible speaks of the children or relatives as "brothers". Abraham and Lot are called brothers, although Lot was actually Abraham's nephew. And Jacob and Laban are called brothers, even though Jacob was the son of Rebecca, Laban's sister. Scripture is therefore silent concerning the nature of this relationship between Christ and these brothers and sisters. Early Fathers differed slightly in their understanding of what the terms meant. Some, such as Saint Ambrose, believed that they were children of a former marriage between Joseph and a wife who died prior to Matthew chapter 1. Others taught that they were cousins. But on one point, almost everyone is in agreement: Mary and Joseph had no sexual union whatsoever, before or after the birth of Christ. I must say in all candor that had my betrothed been the woman chosen by the Father to bear His eternal Son in the flesh, my view of her would have been utterly transformed and my honor for her infinitely heightened. Imagine being betrothed to the Mother of God. It was so with Joseph. His betrothed was ever-virgin.

ROYALTY
If we as the Church are called to be "not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but . . . holy and without blemish" (Ephesians 5:27), does it not follow that she who is the progenitor of the Lord of that Church should be of that same holy character? Not only has Mary by the mercy and power of God conquered both sin and death, the psalmist sees a glimpse of her in heaven through prophetic eyes. For in Psalm 45, Christ is King and Mary is at His side as Queen and rightly so. If God can make us "kings and priests" (Revelation 1:6) for all eternity, certainly He has the prerogative to crown her with higher honor in heaven's royal procession. Little did John and James realize, the day they argued about which of them might occupy the seat of honor at Christ's right hand in the Kingdom, that God the Father had already reserved that space for the marvelous woman He chose to bear His Son for our salvation. The honor is appropriate for the most blessed of all women, the one who is our very icon of holiness. Who else could be more rightly rewarded? Thus the psalmist is well within the mark when he writes of Christ, "At Your right hand stands the queen" (Psalm 45:9)!

OTHER TRADITIONS
There are two other beliefs concerning Mary that must be briefly mentioned and addressed. The first is her bodily assumption into heaven, the other her immaculate conception. It was widely reported in the early Church that shortly after her death, Mary's body was assumed into heaven. In later centuries, the Roman Church ratified this belief as dogma, while the Eastern Church withheld such an official imprimatur. Most Christians agree that such a miracle is within the realm of firm biblical precedent, Enoch and Elijah being two examples. Further, there is no known record of any gravesite or relics of the Holy Virgin. The assumption of the Virgin is safely seen as an historic Christian tradition, though not recorded in the Scriptures. The Immaculate Conception of Mary is a doctrine unique to the modern Roman Church. In an effort to distance Mary (and protect Christ) from the stain of sin, the Immaculate Conception holds Mary was conceived and born without sin. The Orthodox Church firmly rejects this doctrine on the basis of both Scripture and tradition. Whatever other excesses may have cropped up in history, the Roman Church has never believed or officially taught that Mary was in any way coequal with the Trinity or was to be worshiped with the Trinity. Such allegations are sometimes set forth by critics of the Roman Church, but without basis in fact.

THE VESPERS PRAYER
Near the end of Vespers in the Orthodox Church, the officiant says, "O holy Mother of God, save us". What does this mean? The Orthodox Church has taught from the very beginning that Mary is the supreme example, or prototype, of what happens to a person who fully places trust and faith in God. Everything we aspire to become in Christ, she already is. We are all to "receive" Christ (John 1:12). And as we noted previously, Mary was the first human being who did receive Christ. Out of the millions of "decisions" made for Christ, Mary's was the first. Therefore, whatever promises the Holy Scriptures hold for us, Mary already possesses. If the sacred Scriptures declare that we are all kings (Revelation 1:6), is it so strange that the Church refers to Mary as Queen? If the Holy Bible promised that you and I shall judge angels (1 Corinthians 6:3), is it so odd that the Church should sing that Mary is "more honorable than the cherubim and more glorious beyond compare than the seraphim"? If we who are called "holy brethren" (Hebrews 3:1) are commanded to be holy as God is holy (1 Peter 1:15, 16) and are to present our bodies as a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1), is it so unthinkable that she whose holy body was the recipient of God Incarnate should be called "most holy" by the Church? If Saint Paul instructs us to "[pray] always . . . for all the saints" (Ephesians 6:18), is it so outrageous to confess with the Church that Holy Mary (along with all the saints who have passed from death to life and continually stand in the presence of Christ) intercedes before her Son on behalf of all men? Mary volitionally relinquished her will to the will of God, thus cooperating fully with the purpose of God. So the original question, "Can Mary save us?" leads to another question: "Can we save others?" Again, the Holy Scriptures speak with resounding clarity. Here are some examples: "Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you" (1 Timothy 4:16). "Let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins" (James 5:20). "And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire" (Jude 22, 23). Fire saves (1 Corinthians 3:15), prayer saves (James 5:15), angels save (Isaiah 63:9), baptism saves (1 Peter 3:21), preaching saves (1 Corinthians 1:21), the Apostle Paul saved (Romans 11:14). New life in Christ, or salvation, is both personal union with Him and an incorporation into the wholeness of the Body, the Church. Salvation is a Church affair, a Church concern, because we are all affected by it. In another biblical image, salvation is seen as a family matter-God's family ("the whole family in heaven and earth"-Ephesians 3:15). Everybody gets into the act, so to speak. Therefore, under Christ we each have a part to play in the corporateness of His saving act. We do not save alone; Mary does not save alone. Jesus Christ is our wellspring of salvation. And He said, "Without Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). But, "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you" (John 15:7). Mary has a unique role in our salvation because she provided the physical body of Christ and thereby became the "mother" of all those who would be saved. That is why Jesus, while on the Cross, said to His mother, "Woman, behold your son!" and then said to Saint John, "Behold your mother!" (John 19:26, 27).

TAKING ACTION
Many Christians have been grossly misinformed in the last 150 years concerning the historical Church's view of Mary. Therefore, I would suggest that you keep this booklet and use it to help others when the question arises. And remember also that there are things that are unique to the Virgin Mary. She was the only one who gave her flesh to the Son of God, and she is uniquely to be blessed throughout all generations (Luke 1:48). What we do about Mary is connected directly to what we do about Church. The community of Christ's followers is called to act together. Taking action with regard to Mary is not simply personal or private; it has to do with responding as The Church. And where in Christendom has the fullness of truth concerning Mary been preserved? Even most Protestants-both liberal and conservative-know she is slighted in their circles. The answer for Protestants who take the biblical and historical evidence seriously lies neither within the Protestant Churches nor in the Roman Church, with its questionable late dogmatic additions concerning Mary. I urge you to visit and get to know the historic Orthodox Church which has maintained the biblical fidelity concerning Mary and Christian Faith in general. Within the boundaries of Orthodoxy, the faith and practice of the Church safeguard true commitment to the Lord Jesus Christ together with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. It is there that the truths of the Bible are taught in their entirety, where the worship of God is experienced in Spirit and in truth, and where Mary and the great cloud of witnesses for Christ throughout the ages are honored and revered. The hour is at hand for all of us who love Christ and take seriously the Holy Scriptures to set our hearts and minds to giving Holy Mary her proper due in the proper Church. We do so because God has done great things for and through her (Luke 1:49). As Christians we do not live by feelings, we live by faith. Let us once for all rise above those things the devil has sown in our hearts to neutralize us against this precious woman who gave birth to our Savior. Bless her in the midst of God's people. Follow her example in exalting Christ. Confess her as the Mother of God. Come home to the Church that has kept intact our Holy Faith. And may we help turn our generation back to giving Mary the honor and blessing which God has commanded."
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
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#22
Of course Jesus loved his Mother, he loved us all.

But why would we make an idol of her?
Tell me then, how should we honour the mother of the King of Kings? How can anything we do compare to the honour already given to her by her son?
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,138
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#23
Tell me then, how should we honour the mother of the King of Kings? How can anything we do compare to the honour already given to her by her son?










I think you answered that for yourself.

God bless you all x
 
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Forest

Guest
#24
There is no worshiping of Mary going on in the Orthodox Church, the worship is directed solely at Christ. The reason why we honor and venerate Mary is because she is the Mother of the Holy Lord Jesus. She is proclaimed as "Theotokos" because she bore God the Word in human flesh. This doctrine of "Theotokos" was created to be a safeguard of the Incarnation of Christ against heretics who wanted to say that Christ was not fully God and fully man born in the flesh. This doctrine is a safeguard for the True Faith and is in no way denoting that we worship Mary.

For it is written by one of the Church Fathers, "If any one refuses to confess tile holy Virgin to be "Theotokos," or calls our Lord Jesus Christ bare man, or divides into two sons Him who is one only begotten and first born of every creature, I pray that he may fall from hope in Christ, and let all the people say amen, amen." (St Theodoret of Cyrus 5th C).

The word "Theotokos" means "God bearer" in Greek. "The Council of Ephesus decreed in 431 that Mary is Theotokos because her son Jesus is one person who is both God and man, divine and human.[1]"

[1]

This is why is is important to honor Mary and this is why the Church has always done so, in order that heresies and false beliefs about her Son may be found to be false. If you don't believe Mary to be "Theotokos" you do not have the Incarnation of Christ, this is what our doctrine of Mary is all about; it is about the proper belief in the Incarnation of Christ, about who Christ is. Whoever does not have the proper teaching about Mary does not have Christ.



Once again, Mary is not an idolized in the Church, she is simply honored, adored and venerated, but not worshiped like God. In fact, she is honored for that very reason; because of God Himself having been born of her. Like I said before, the doctrine of Mary in the Orthodox Church is there in order to have the truth about the Incarnation of God be defended. You do not have Christ without the proper theology about His Mother, Mary. She is Theotokos ("Mother of God" or "God Bearer").

Christians who do not affirm Mary to be the Theotokos (God Bearer) do not have the Son, for then they would have no logical explanation as to how God was born in the flesh. Without the proper belief in Mary, you do not have her Son.

You say, "you do not need any other man to explain the truth for you, it is all in Scripture". How could this be so when this is not an Apostolic Teaching? St James, St Peter and St Paul all talk about us needing teachers. In the Acts of St Luke, the Ethiopian says to St Phillip:

Act 8:30 So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?"
Act 8:31 And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

And St Paul here says that there are teachers in the Church. "And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues." 1Co 12:28


And St James in his holy epistle was talking about teaching as being a necessary ministry:

James 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.









The Saints and early Church Fathers of the Church were servants of God, how could you judge them as "saying that they know better than God"? They have expounded the Scriptures to us that which they learned through the illumination of Christ.

You think that the Church does not take me out of my "comfort zone" when it commands me to keep the fast and go to holy confession and communion? On the contrary the Church of Christ is the narrow way that leads to salvation.

You are speaking evil of the things which you know not.


Jude_1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not:
Elders in the church are to teach the divinely inspired scriptures and not to teach their personal belifs or any others belifs that do not harmonise with the scriptures.
 
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Forest

Guest
#25
Where did you ever learn that it was the Will of God that we take ONLY the Bible for our standard for the Truth and not the Church (assembly) of the living God? For it was written in the Scriptures themselves that it is the Church which is the "Ground and pillar of the Truth", not the Bible.


1Ti 3:15 But if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how it is necessary to conduct oneself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.



Note that it does not tell us that the Bible is the "Ground and pillar of the truth", but the Church.

Sola Scriptura is not an Apostolic Teaching, the Bible is not the Ground and guardian of the Truth of the Christian Faith, the Church is. Without the Church, the Bible and Christianity cannot be understood properly, you can interpret it 1 million different ways and still end up in the dark; because you do not have the proper teachers but false teachers, you don't have the fullness of the Faith.

Have you ever understood Ephesians 4? You will never understand it without the Church of Christ. The Church is here for one of these among many other reasons:

Eph 4:14 that we may no longer be infants, being tossed as by waves, and being carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in regard to deceitful scheming,
John 5:44, How can ye believe, which receiveth honour one from another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
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#26
I think you answered that for yourself.

God bless you all x
So, then you agree that us honouring the Virgin Mother of Our God is fine because there's nothing we can do to compare to the honour that He has already given her. :D
 
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StMichaelTheArchangel

Guest
#27
John 5:44, How can ye believe, which receiveth honour one from another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
And how do we receive honor from one another? Protestantism seeks honor for itself with in false doctrines of Sola Scriptura (Bible Alone) and Sola Fide (Faith Alone), both which were created by a Latin monk in the 16th century. Jesus and the Apostles taught works, Sola Fide (Faith Alone) is a fabrication of the human intellect (Martin Luthers). Also, nowhere in the New Testament is Sola Scriptura (Bible Alone) ever taught.

When people start thinking that they can interpret the Bible for themselves without the Church, they end up with thousands of different denominations each teaching a different Gospel.

That is why St Paul taught us that we must have a Unity of the Faith in Ephesians 4. In Ephesians 4, St Paul addresses the fact there are "pastors and teachers" He is saying that without the Unity of the Faith and the correct "Knowledge of the Son of God", we are dogmatically swimming in an ocean of confusion.


Ephesians 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
Eph 4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
Eph 4:14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.



And how do we reach the "Unity of the Faith" (v 13) and the "Knowledge of the Son of God" (v 13)? Only by the Orthodox Church of Christ, "The house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. (1Timothy 3:15). So he is not saying that the Bible is the "Pillar and bulwark of the truth" ( v 15) but the Church is. Isn't that amazing?

But what is this Church? Well, you can see from this timeline that it is the Eastern Orthodox Church. This is the Unchanged, Apostolic, United, Sacramental and Charismatic Church of Christ. Only it is the "Ground and pillar of the Truth" (1 Timothy 3:15). Read the Ante Nicene or Post Nicene Church Fathers online or buy them online and see that only the Ancient Churches are the Real Churches, not the innovated ones that Luther and the Reformers made from scratch in the 16th century. The most Faithful Ancient Church is of course the Eastern Orthodox Church. It has no heresies and no schisms, it is the only undivided Body of Christ. It is the 2nd largest Church in the world, with over 375 million worldwide.

Look at this timeline for proof:

 
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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,555
3,192
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#28
If our only two choices for Truth are the word of God contained in the bible, or the Tradition of the EOC, I choose the bible. Its that simple. Christians trust their bible and the leading of the Holy Spirit over the corruption and error found in any church they may attend.

This isn't really a question but honestly, what would you trust more, Revelation of Jesus Christ given by the Holy Spirit through the reading of the bible, or mens traditions passed down through a church that they tell you is the one true church? There are lots of churches that claim to be the one true church.

For men to claim to be in the position only the Holy Spirit can hold is error and corruption. Jesus says My sheep hear my voice and another they will not follow.

Its great that you like your church. But like every other church, it is made up of men and contains doctrines of men and is therefore in error. Everyone is to be led to repentance, even churches. The oldest churches just have the oldest errors. They still should be repented of, even if they are old. It is only pride that causes men to remain un-repentant of their errors.

I won't be following men, or mens tradition. I have found something much, much better. His name is Jesus Christ and you can learn all about Him in the bible. I prefer the KJV but I'm confident the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit can lead and teach through any bible.
 
Nov 23, 2011
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#29
If our only two choices for Truth are the word of God contained in the bible, or the Tradition of the EOC, I choose the bible. Its that simple. Christians trust their bible and the leading of the Holy Spirit over the corruption and error found in any church they may attend.

This isn't really a question but honestly, what would you trust more, Revelation of Jesus Christ given by the Holy Spirit through the reading of the bible, or mens traditions passed down through a church that they tell you is the one true church? There are lots of churches that claim to be the one true church.

For men to claim to be in the position only the Holy Spirit can hold is error and corruption. Jesus says My sheep hear my voice and another they will not follow.

Its great that you like your church. But like every other church, it is made up of men and contains doctrines of men and is therefore in error. Everyone is to be led to repentance, even churches. The oldest churches just have the oldest errors. They still should be repented of, even if they are old. It is only pride that causes men to remain un-repentant of their errors.

I won't be following men, or mens tradition. I have found something much, much better. His name is Jesus Christ and you can learn all about Him in the bible. I prefer the KJV but I'm confident the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit can lead and teach through any bible.

Grandpa, If that is true, you must trust the Bible and the leading of the Holy Spirit over your private Protestant misinterpretation and corruption of the Gospel message of the Bible, and the man made and false doctrines of sola Scriptura and sola Fide, which are not taught by the Bible, but are the corruptions and traditions and creations of the vain imagination and intellect of a Latin Papist monk, Martin Luther. Luther never left papism; he just transferred papism and belief in the pope of Rome to belief in himself, Martin Luther, as his own pope, self-pope, Lutheropapism. Not what the Bible says, but what "Luther says". There is actually a book "What Luther Says", available from Concordia Publishing House in St. Louis MO of the LCMS Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington January 2012 AD
PS Grandpa, you are following men, or men's tradition. You trust your own private judgment to lead you into all the truth (cf. John 16:13). I understand through bad experiences the danger of confusing following one's own voice for the voice of the Holy Spirit and the voice of Jesus Christ. To claim the Church cannot discern the voice of the Holy Spirit, but oneself as a private individual can hear the Holy Spirit BY ONESELF is DELUSION. Strong delusion.
We should listen to the Bible and the Holy Fathers, Church Fathers, and not to Martin Luther, the popes of Rome, John Calvin and the Protestant Reformers.
 
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babyboyblue

Guest
#31
So you want to follow Sola Scriptura because of Martin Luther? That is not how the Christians of the preceding centuries viewed things, that the Bible was all that we needed. You want to claim Bible Alone but which Bible? There are literally hundreds and even thousands of different Bible translations, so which one do you choose as the right one? If it was really God's will that we read the Bible as the sole Truth, don't you think that God would have given us only One Translation? Even the Muslims have one translation of their holy Koran and would never want to pervert the translation in a thousand years, for that would be ultimate blasphemy. But yet there are Christians today who claim Bible Alone and still believe that all of these different translations of the Bible do not negate Sola Scriptura - but it does for the aforementioned reasons.

Yes, I would honor the metal gate if Christ came into the world through one because it would be the only proof that we have of Christ's Incarnation. It would be a great place to go visit because we could see with our own eyes the proof of the Incarnation. It is the same thing with the Orthodox Church doctrine of the Virgin Mary, she is the proof of the incarnation.

Bringing up verses which talk about God's "word" does not automatically mean that the author is referring to the Bible. The Word (Logos) of God is Jesus Christ, and the "word" of God signifies the Holy Spirit, and also God's will.

When it says in John 17: "Sanctify them by thy truth, thy word is truth", it is not talking about the book of the Bible but of the Holy Spirit, and this Holy Spirit is not limited to a book. There are also other books other than the Bible which contain the "word" (Holy Spirit) of God. Works of Saints and holy men.

For how could the Apostles of the Lord have been sanctified by a book? He was speaking of the Spirit.

I'm not going by the Bible because Luther, but because the bible instructs us to compare line upon line and precept upon precept.

The Jews have the Koran. The Christians have the Bible. No matter the translation. That's the book Christians go by. Paul said that the scriptures are to be used for doctrine and correction. If you want to read other writings that's fine, but as a Christian, your faith should be based on the bible alone. The other writings should line up with the scripture and not the other way around. We're told that God magnified His word above his own Name. The scriptures are the light of the world, they are a lamp to our feet. You know why the Dark Ages were called the Dark Ages? It was because the Bible was taken from the people.

Jesus being the example of the Christian preached from the scriptures and quoted scriptures.

If you want to honor Mary, that's your prerogative. But it's by no instruction of the Bible and it is entirely something personal that you've chosen to do.
 
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StMichaelTheArchangel

Guest
#32
That's not a timeline. That's a propganda poster. I can do that too, in fact...

If its propaganda then how do you interpret Matthew 16:18 where Christ says, "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I shall build My church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."?

Now Christ if it says that He built us a Church, then where is it? It is in the Church of Apostolic Succession, and this Church is the Eastern Orthodox Church. It is the only unchanging, dogmatically and liturgically correct Church of God, it is"the pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1 Tim 3:15). This is that grace Christ dispensed to the whole world so that we could live afterHe ascended into Heaven. It is what has been feeding the Faithful Christians for the past 2000 years after He left us. Christ said in John 14:18 "I will not leave you orphans; I am coming to you."
This coming is that which he said he would send us, the "Spirit of Truth" (John 16:13) . He gave this Spirit of Truth to the Church. And so because the Church is the Ground and Pillar of the Truth (1 Tim 3:15), this means that Christ gave us the Church as our source of Truth, not the Bible.

John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will announce to you things to come.
14 He will glorify Me, for He will take from what is Mine and He will announce it to you.





So Christ sent the Spirit of Truth after His Ascension. Who did he send the Spirit of Truth to? "The Church of the Living God, the Ground and Pillar of The Truth" (1 Timothy 3:15)

If you did your research, it would lead you to the Eastern Orthodox Church,
 
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Nov 23, 2011
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#33
babyboyblue;617682 said:
I'm not going by the Bible because

Luther, but because the bible instructs us to compare line upon

line and precept upon precept.

The Jews have the Koran. The Christians have the Bible. No

matter the translation. That's the book Christians go by. Paul

said that the scriptures are to be used for doctrine and

correction. If you want to read other writings that's fine, but as

a Christian, your faith should be based on the bible alone. The

other writings should line up with the scripture and not the

other way around. We're told that God magnified His word

above his own Name. The scriptures are the light of the world,

they are a lamp to our feet. You know why the Dark Ages were

called the Dark Ages? It was because the Bible was taken from

the people.
babyboyblue;617682 said:


Jesus being the example of the Christian preached from the

scriptures and quoted scriptures.


If you want to honor Mary, that's your prerogative. But it's by

no instruction of the Bible and it is entirely something personal

that you've chosen to do.




Dear babyboyblue: If your faith should be based "on the bible

alone", where does the bible alone itself teach that every

teaching a Christian believes has to be "in the bible alone"?

That is not taught by

2 Thessalonians 2:15, which teaches that there are traditions

not written down in the Bible alone that are to be kept by

Christians. God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

PS Honoring Mary is not optional. It's mandatory. Because

Mary prophesied, "ALL generations SHALL call me blessed." If

you don't honor Mary, and bless her, and call her blessed, you

disobey this Bible Scripture, in defiance of the very Holy Spirit

of God Who inspired the Virgin Mary to speak these holy

words. Honoring Mary IS entirely a INSTRUCTION OF THE

BIBLE.



 
Nov 23, 2011
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#34
That's not a timeline. That's a propganda poster. I can do that too, in fact...


[

/quote]


Ironic, Jimmydiggs. Propaganda? Look what you do with your icons of Western believers.

Why follow these men if that is not propaganda?

Why follow Calvinism when Calvinism is AUGUSTINIAN propaganda?

You teach a comic book, cartoon theology with many of your threads! Strange propaganda indeed!

God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
 
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StMichaelTheArchangel

Guest
#35
I'm not going by the Bible because Luther, but because the bible instructs us to compare line upon line and precept upon precept.

The Jews have the Koran. The Christians have the Bible. No matter the translation. That's the book Christians go by. Paul said that the scriptures are to be used for doctrine and correction. If you want to read other writings that's fine, but as a Christian, your faith should be based on the bible alone. The other writings should line up with the scripture and not the other way around. We're told that God magnified His word above his own Name. The scriptures are the light of the world, they are a lamp to our feet. You know why the Dark Ages were called the Dark Ages? It was because the Bible was taken from the people.

Jesus being the example of the Christian preached from the scriptures and quoted scriptures.

If you want to honor Mary, that's your prerogative. But it's by no instruction of the Bible and it is entirely something personal that you've chosen to do.
Of course the Bible is the inspired word of God BUT it is NOT the ONLY source of Truth. According to the Scriptures themselves, the Church is the "Ground and pillar of the Truth" (1 Tim 3:15), not the Bible.

If you say that you follow the Scriptures but yet do not believe in the Church which is openly proclaimed by the Apostle Paul as being the source of Truth (1 Tim 3:15), then you are saying one thing (that you follow the Bible) but doing another (which is hypocrisy).

Just because the Bible says that "God magnified his word above all" does not mean this is referring to the Holy Scriptures themselves. The word "word" in the Bible has a multitude of meanings. Also, the ancient text is not trying to exalt written documents (such as a Bible) because Bibles were EXTREMELY expensive in those ancient times, and also complete Bibles with numerous books were very rare. The fact of the matter is that the Holy Scriptures (The New Testament esp.) have no authority without the Church of Christ, for only it is the "Ground and Pillar of the Truth" (1 Tim 3:15). It was the early Church Fathers themselves who put together the 27 books of the New Testament which we know of today as the "Inerrant word of God". Do you understand now that the Bible is NOT the source of the Truth of the Christian Faith but the Church is (1 Tim 3:15)? The Scriptures themselves testify against the very concept of Sola Scriptura and puts it at naught.

Now that you know this, all that you have to do is trace the steps back to the roots of the Faith by reading the ancient Christian writings known of as the Ante / Post Nicene Church Fathers. Try first reading the Apostolic Church Fathers, this will give you an actual idea of what the Church of Christ is and how it is structured. It is the Church of ancient and Holy Tradition which was given to us by Christ and inspired (led) by the Holy Spirit.

Do not doubt these things because the Sciptures do not lie, the Church is the Ground and Pillar of the Truth (1 Tim 3:15), and this truth has been preserved by Holy Tradition. For there is only One Gospel (Gal 1:9) and one herald of that Gospel, the Eastern Orthodox Church. It is not a different Gospel which has been proclaimed by thousands of different Protestant denominations, each who teach a Gospel of Man and not of God (Gal 1:11). This Gospel has been preserved by its Holy Tradition: 2Th 2:15 So then, brothers, stand fast and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our letter.

The Greek word for tradition is paradosis which means (according to Strongs):

παράδοσις
paradosis
par-ad'-os-is


From G3860; transmission, that is, (concretely) a precept; specifically the Jewish traditionary law: - ordinance, tradition.



Concerning Mary, it is written in the Scriptures that, "From henceforth, all generations shall call me (Mary) blessed" (Gospel of Luke 1:48). Do you and other Protestants bless Mary throughout every year and everyday, and do you ever call her blessed? We certainly do in the Eastern Orthodox Church of Christ, for that is what the Scriptures tell us to do, and we obey them, just like we obey them when it says that the Church is the Pillar of the Truth (1 Tim 3:15) and not the Bible.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,555
3,192
113
#36
Grandpa, If that is true, you must trust the Bible and the leading of the Holy Spirit over your private Protestant misinterpretation and corruption of the Gospel message of the Bible, and the man made and false doctrines of sola Scriptura and sola Fide, which are not taught by the Bible, but are the corruptions and traditions and creations of the vain imagination and intellect of a Latin Papist monk, Martin Luther. Luther never left papism; he just transferred papism and belief in the pope of Rome to belief in himself, Martin Luther, as his own pope, self-pope, Lutheropapism. Not what the Bible says, but what "Luther says". There is actually a book "What Luther Says", available from Concordia Publishing House in St. Louis MO of the LCMS Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington January 2012 AD
PS Grandpa, you are following men, or men's tradition. You trust your own private judgment to lead you into all the truth (cf. John 16:13). I understand through bad experiences the danger of confusing following one's own voice for the voice of the Holy Spirit and the voice of Jesus Christ. To claim the Church cannot discern the voice of the Holy Spirit, but oneself as a private individual can hear the Holy Spirit BY ONESELF is DELUSION. Strong delusion.
We should listen to the Bible and the Holy Fathers, Church Fathers, and not to Martin Luther, the popes of Rome, John Calvin and the Protestant Reformers.

Its an issue of trust. I trust Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit and His Word the bible.

You don't trust the bible. You trust the tradition of men passed down through your church.

The only tradition of men that I trust is the tradition of not trusting men. LOL. So I suppose in that respect you are correct.

Your only argument is which men to listen to. I say all of them have something to offer, but none of them are entirely correct. The only way we can know the truth and not be deluded is to follow the Holy Spirit and recieve discernment from Him. Otherwise you are just a blind follower of the blind.

PS Luthers 95 theses were correct and the church that called itself the one true church was in error. No amount of trying to discredit him will change that fact.
 

Rahz

Junior Member
Nov 6, 2011
22
0
1
#37
If you did your research, it would lead you to the Eastern Orthodox Church,

1 Peter 2:9 RSVA

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.


The Catholic Church is the only true Church that is a " HOLY NATION"

179 States Have Full Diplomatic Relations With the Holy See



Added to the 179 states are the European Union, the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, and the Office of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO). In regard to international organizations, the Holy See is present at the U.N. in the capacity of observer and is a member of seven U.N. organizations and agencies, an observer in an additional eight and a member or observer of five regional organizations.

Last Dec. 5 in Geneva, the International Organization for Migration (IOM) approved the Holy See's status as a member.

Last June 18, the Holy Father appointed an apostolic nuncio to the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN).

Last April 29, an agreement was signed in Baku between the Holy See and the Republic of Azerbaijan, which governs juridical relations between the Catholic Church and that state.

On June 14, a basic agreement was signed in the Vatican between the Holy See and Montenegro, which confirmed principles and defined dispositions on questions of common interest.

Finally, on Dec. 7, an agreement was made in Maputo between the Holy See and the Republic of Mozambique. The agreement, the first of this nature signed by a country of southern Africa, consolidates existing bonds of friendship and collaboration between the two parties.
12-January-2012 -- ZENIT.org News Agency


The Holy Catholic Church is involved in improving all aspects of humanity, and continually bringing New Saints to light-- the Orthodox are a sister church as the Pope has said but they are no where near involved in improving world affairs, and certainly Saints didn't cease to arise because of a schism.
 
S

StMichaelTheArchangel

Guest
#38
1 Peter 2:9 RSVA

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.


The Catholic Church is the only true Church that is a " HOLY NATION"

179 States Have Full Diplomatic Relations With the Holy See



Added to the 179 states are the European Union, the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, and the Office of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO). In regard to international organizations, the Holy See is present at the U.N. in the capacity of observer and is a member of seven U.N. organizations and agencies, an observer in an additional eight and a member or observer of five regional organizations.

Last Dec. 5 in Geneva, the International Organization for Migration (IOM) approved the Holy See's status as a member.

Last June 18, the Holy Father appointed an apostolic nuncio to the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN).

Last April 29, an agreement was signed in Baku between the Holy See and the Republic of Azerbaijan, which governs juridical relations between the Catholic Church and that state.

On June 14, a basic agreement was signed in the Vatican between the Holy See and Montenegro, which confirmed principles and defined dispositions on questions of common interest.

Finally, on Dec. 7, an agreement was made in Maputo between the Holy See and the Republic of Mozambique. The agreement, the first of this nature signed by a country of southern Africa, consolidates existing bonds of friendship and collaboration between the two parties.
12-January-2012 -- ZENIT.org News Agency


The Holy Catholic Church is involved in improving all aspects of humanity, and continually bringing New Saints to light-- the Orthodox are a sister church as the Pope has said but they are no where near involved in improving world affairs, and certainly Saints didn't cease to arise because of a schism.

Christians are not supposed to be political or concerned with politics. One of the Canons of the 7 Ecumenical Councils says that a bishop cannot be the ruler of a nation or else he will be excommunicated. This means that the Pope, who is the ruler of the Vatican, should be excommunicated for breaking one of the holy Canons.


The Roman Catholic Church leaders are corrupt and have dealt corruptly. Having lost the grace of God since the 1054 schism, they have become the antichurch of God. The false Church. Only Eastern Orthodoxy is the unchanging Church of Christ which He gave the world. The RCC has created heretical doctrines which are alien to the Spirit of God. Their heresies offend His Spirit. They embitter God whenever they say that Mary was immaculately conceived, or that the pope is the head of the whole Church, or that Vatican II council is a valid Council.

The Roman Catholic Church is renovated Church created by the human intellect, not the True Unchanging Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#39
If you did your research, it would lead you to the Eastern Orthodox Church,
The Catholics are gunna like parts of this post.



As much as I disagree with Roman Catholicism, even I recognize they came before you did. Chronology isn't that difficult my friend. Roman Catholicism came before the Protestant Reformation.


I'm sorry, but the EOC has no chance. The Romanists don't have much more of a chance either when you address issues such as soteriology, polity, etc, but even I can see that they have far more going for them than you guys do. Just sayin' bra'.



I thought about adding something else, but I know the Catholics here will press that one.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#40
Ironic, Jimmydiggs. Propaganda? Look what you do with your icons of Western believers.
Look who is complaining about Icons. :p

Question: What are my icons? I'm confuzzled 'bout dat son.



Why follow these men if that is not propaganda?
I don't care what men say. I'm not interested in the approval of men.

Why follow Calvinism when Calvinism is AUGUSTINIAN propaganda?
I've only read one paragraph from John Calvin, and two minor quotes. None of which were about Calvinism. I don't know much about Calvin. Really don't care to be honest. I know even less of Augustine of Hippo. I did find some free books, maybe I'll have more to say next time you accuse me of worshipping men like the EOC does. ;)



You teach a comic book, cartoon theology with many of your threads!
Humor bro', try it.

Strange propaganda indeed!
Rather ineffective if it was meant for propoganda.


God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
God bless you. In the middle of the boondocks between Higginsville and Warrensburg MO. Dustin T.

Scott, you really shouldn't post your last name on the internet in such a public place like this.