To all the post trib and no trib believers.

[GaryA]

Ahwatukee:

I know that you want to think about and refer to the 'trumpet' events as 'wrath' by virtue of them being called plagues. However, there is a "technical error" in that way of thinking. See below...

Also, you should remember and understand that I am looking at the End Times Scenario in 'event' terms. And, as such, the 'trumpet' events are separate from the 'vials'. In any case, both occur after the tribulation is over. The 'seals' are a different story.

The 'trumpet' events are brought about by the two witnesses, and occur before the Second Coming of Christ.

The 'vials' are brought about by Jesus Himself, and ( of course ) occur after the Second Coming of Christ.

My use of the phrase 'Second Coming of Christ' above is in the sense of "the moment He appears"...

By virtue of Revelation 6:16-17; 14:19; 15:1,7; 16:1; 19:15 -- I consider the 'Wrath' to be that which is "dispensed" by Jesus Himself.

You should notice that "last plagues" does not automatically mean "last wrath"; the 'Wrath' is "contained" in the [ seven ] "last plagues" --- there is a difference...

If there are 21 plates lined up on a table -- and, the last 7 plates have been filled with food ( but, the other 14 are empty, and have no food on them at all ) -- if I say that the last 7 plates are filled with food, it does not mean that there is any food on any of the other plates.

What 'last' is referring to is the plates, not the food.

What 'last' is referring to is the plagues, not the wrath.

There is a difference...

 

[PlainWord]

If you will notice, the seven bowls are treated as a unit, as being the last plagues, because with them God's wrath is completed. Consequently, since these seven bowls are last, completing God's wrath, then there would have to have been wrath before them. For you can't have something that is last unless something was first or before them. The only other events before the bowls, would be the seals and the trumpets. Which would mean that they would have to come before the bowl judgments in order for the bowls to be referred to as last.

You are making an assumption dear friend. Has God not issued plagues before? Egypt comes to mind. Perhaps the meaning is that these are the final plagues that God will pour out in all history?

If you do a key word search in the KJV for "plagues" you will find the word 22 times. Plagues were given by God in the OT to Egypt, to Israel for sins, to Babylon, and to Edom. In the NT, plagues were twice associated with those having various illnesses, infirmities and evil spirits. In Revelation, the word appears 10 of the 22 times. Two of these 10 times the word appears before the bowls are discussed. Once in relation to the 6th trumpet, specifically as it relates to how 1/3 of mankind is killed, [SUP]18 [/SUP]By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

The other time is in relation to the two witnesses here: [SUP]6 [/SUP]These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

None of the seals or trumpets mentions lack of rain. Turning water to blood is only found at the second trumpet and second and third bowls. The point is no plagues are mentioned in any of the seals and in only potentially 2 of the 7 trumpets. Your rationale is therefore inconclusive.

 

[GaryA]

As proof of this consider the following:

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."

If you will notice, the seven bowls are treated as a unit, as being the last plagues, because with them God's wrath is completed. Consequently, since these seven bowls are last, completing God's wrath, then there would have to have been wrath before them. For you can't have something that is last unless something was first or before them. The only other events before the bowls, would be the seals and the trumpets. Which would mean that they would have to come before the bowl judgments in order for the bowls to be referred to as last.

Your "proof" contains assumptions that are not supported by the 'grammar of the language'.

The two witnesses will be bringing their own plagues upon the earth in addition to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

The 'trumpet' events are the 'two witnesses' plagues...

 

[GaryA]

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are the tribulation of God's wrath. They are a detailed account of how God is going to carry out his wrath.

In 'event' terms, 'tribulation' and 'wrath' are two different things -- there is no [ direct ] connection between them.

Once again, there is no scriptural support that the tribulation is ended by the two witnesses.

Keep reading. Keep studying.

 

[PlainWord]

Gary,

The 'trumpet' events are the 'two witnesses' plagues...

How can you know this?

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.


[SUP]6 [/SUP]These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Of the plagues mentioned, withholding rain and turning waters to blood, only turning waters to blood is found in the trumpets.

 

[GaryA]

Your response above did not address the claim that I brought up. By not believing in the Lord's promise to keep us out of the time of trial and not believing the scripture that states that we are no appointed to suffer wrath and not understanding that Jesus already experienced wrath for us, you are the one who is teaching the lie, a false teaching.

The meaning behind our being gathered as "the blessed hope" is because we are not appointed suffer God's coming wrath. What you and others do, is to circumvent and distort scripture, redefining what God's wrath is. That is how it is will all false teachers, they distort and circumvent scripture.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all God's wrath and will be carried out throughout that last seven year period up, with Christ returning shortly after the 7th bowl judgment. You people should not be teaching either Revelation nor end-time events.

I am very familiar with the term "Post-Trib" and it doesn't take much to understand that it has to do with the church being gathered after the tribulation. The problem is that you redefine what the tribulation/wrath of God is, distorting it.

The other is that, if you understand that the wrath of God/tribulation will be in operation during that entire last seven years, then you would be putting the church through the entire wrath of God, which believers are not appointed to suffer. So, which ever way you slice it, your interpretation is distorted. The wrath of God does not take place after the tribulation. The wrath of God is the tribulation! God's tribulation of wrath, with the last 3 1/2 being the great tribulation.

And, anyone who properly understands this will thereby also understand the difference between 'Judgment' and 'Wrath' when considering the 'seals', 'trumpets', and 'vials'.

The words wrath, judgment and plagues, are all referring to the same thing, which is God's wrath. You redefine them so that you can segregate the tribulation as one event and the seals, trumpets and bowls as another, which is your error. Below is just one proof that the words previously mentioned are used interchangeably referring to God's wrath:



Plagues = wrath

Not only this, but the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all referred to as wrath within each set. The wrath of God is going to commence after the church has been gathered. We have been redeemed, reconciled and credited with righteousness for faith in Christ. The bridegroom is not going send his bride through his wrath first and then gather her after his wrath! Logically speaking and in consideration of God's nature, what kind of blessed hope would that be, If the church was to first through God's wrath? How could we comfort one another with the promise of being gathered if we were to first be exposed to God's wrath? The church cannot be here. This is why I say, you have no idea of the severity, magnitude or timing of God's wrath. You invent a separate time of tribulation and then stick God's wrath behind that, when you should be recognizing that God's wrath will be operating throughout the entire period.

As proof of what I am telling you, when you see a political leader establish a seven year covenant with Israel, allowing them to build their temple, then know that you are have entered into the time of God's wrath.

The next event that will take place after that will be that emergence of that red horse whose rider will take peace from the earth so that men kill one another (nation shall rise against nation). { "And you don't think this has already been occurring for years, decades, and centuries...???" }

After that, the third seal/black horse which represents a coming, wide-spread famine, which results in a little bit of food being very expensive.

After that, at the 4th seal, death and Hades will be given power to kill a fourth of the earth's inhabitants.

When you see these things, then know that you have entered the time of God's wrath.

The above is not imaginative thinking. It is a matter of using proper exegesis to arrive at a right conclusion. When you compare the scriptures that refer to the gathering of the church vs. the scriptures referring to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, it is obvious that they are two different events

Man I am tire of false teacher's who don't know that they are false teachers!

"Just playing your tape..."

 

[bluto]

In other words, these false messiahs and false prophets and specifically thee coming false messiah and thee false prophet, will be performing miracles, signs and wonders that will be so convincing that it would deceive God's chosen if that were possible. The gist is that even though those signs will be deceiving, it won't deceive God's elect.

Question ahwatukee regarding your last paragraph? Did you write it with the "assumption" that your will have already been raptured? I ask because if God's elect won't be deceived then obviously we are still here during the tribulation?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto[/QUOTE]

Bumped for ahwatukee. I'm pretty sure you missed this.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[JesusRules1]

Ahwatukee:

I know that you want to think about and refer to the 'trumpet' events as 'wrath' by virtue of them being called plagues. However, there is a "technical error" in that way of thinking. See below...

Also, you should remember and understand that I am looking at the End Times Scenario in 'event' terms. And, as such, the 'trumpet' events are separate from the 'vials'. In any case, both occur after the tribulation is over. The 'seals' are a different story.

The 'trumpet' events are brought about by the two witnesses, and occur before the Second Coming of Christ.

The 'vials' are brought about by Jesus Himself, and ( of course ) occur after the Second Coming of Christ.

My use of the phrase 'Second Coming of Christ' above is in the sense of "the moment He appears"...

By virtue of Revelation 6:16-17; 14:19; 15:1,7; 16:1; 19:15 -- I consider the 'Wrath' to be that which is "dispensed" by Jesus Himself.

You should notice that "last plagues" does not automatically mean "last wrath"; the 'Wrath' is "contained" in the [ seven ] "last plagues" --- there is a difference...

If there are 21 plates lined up on a table -- and, the last 7 plates have been filled with food ( but, the other 14 are empty, and have no food on them at all ) -- if I say that the last 7 plates are filled with food, it does not mean that there is any food on any of the other plates.

What 'last' is referring to is the plates, not the food.

What 'last' is referring to is the plagues, not the wrath.

There is a difference...

The 6 trumpets is not the wrath of God,but 6 major disasters that happen on earth,which the whole world knows about,but instead of turning to God to help them to stop the fighting,and disasters,and bring about a peaceful world,the world keeps trying to solve their own problems,which they dig themselves in deeper in chaos,instead of peace,which the Bible says when they say Peace and safety,which is when the world is coming together to try to solve their problems,that sudden destruction comes upon them,which at this point the chaos is going to increase even more,and them trying to achieve peace on earth will escape them even more,as they try to solve their problems by their own efforts.

An example is WW1.Instead of turning to God,they set up League of Nations,whose goal was to maintain world peace,as well as try to cause peace among religions,whose founder was Woodrow Wilson.

WW2.Instead of turning to God,they set up United Nations,whose goal again was to maintain world peace,as well as try to cause peace among the religions,a replacement for the ineffective League of Nations,whose founders are 15 countries.

I am not saying that those 2 wars is part of the trumpets,but it is that pattern that they will not turn to God,but keep trying to solve their problems,and that pattern will keep going until God gives them the beast to rule over them.

League of Nations had 58 members,United Nations has 193 members,as the world increases in cooperating with each other,and soon they will say Peace and safety,then the trouble will really begin,for the more they drift from God,and do not ask for help in the truth,the worse the world will be in disaster,especially the 6th trumpet.

There are organizations to try to harmonize the religions also.

Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Rev 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

The 6 trumpets are 6 major disasters on earth that the world knows about,but instead of the world turning to God,they keep trying to solve their problems by their own efforts,after the 6th trumpet God said the world will still not repent of their sins,and turn to Him,so that is when God gives them the beast to rule over them.

I believe the 6th trumpet is the religion of Islam rebelling against the ten horn kingdom,that covers the whole earth,and the unified religious system,which all religions are valid for spiritual enlightenment,spiritual evolution,with a false interpretation of Christianity,Islam,and Judaism,and will be a hate crime for anybody to try to convert someone to their religion,punishable in the international court system.

The religion of Islam will say this is an insult to Allah,and a war will spark between them and the world,which will be so terrible for nuclear weapons will fly,which the Bible says the little horn,beast,will pluck up 3 of those 10 horns by the roots,which the man of sin is working at that time in the world,but has not claimed to be God yet,that the world will be in chaos,and the ten horn kingdom failed at obtaining peace in the world,for the worse war in history occurred,and that is when they turn to the beast,man of sin,for the answer,who has been promoting the new age movement that unified the religions,and the harnessing of nature for power,which when he convinces the world he harnessed the power of nature,the unified religious system collapses,for there is no need for her anymore,for that is what the unified religious system was about,the harnessing of nature for power,and the beast achieved the highest power of nature,and will share that with all who follow him,although he will still be top dog.

After the 6th trumpet,and they do not turn to God,that is when war breaks out in heaven,and the devils are cast to earth,and Satan appears as the beast,man of sin,and the earth becomes the habitation of devils.

The 6 trumpets is not the wrath of God,but fighting,and chaos,on earth,but the world does not turn to God,but keep trying to solve their problems by their own efforts,so after the 6th trumpet God gives the world the beast to rule over them.

The wrath of God is not in the tribulation,and does not occur until after the beast rules for three and one half years.

Israel wanted a king,and God said I am your king,but they persisted,so God gave them their way,and gave them Saul.It did not work out,and God put David on the throne.

The world wants to solve their problems,and a leader,but God says I am your leader,and help,but the world will be persistent,so God will give them their way,and give them the beast.It will not work out,so God will take over the world,and Jesus will sit on the throne of David,and rule the world.

The vials are the wrath of God and happen after the beast rules for three and one half years,for God is allowing him to rule,so He will not interfere until the three and one half years are over,and when the beast accomplishes to scatter the power of the holy people,then all things are finished,for God will resurrect His children,and put down the world,and that is the end of people ever having control again.

 

[PlainWord]

The 6 trumpets is not the wrath of God,but 6 major disasters that happen on earth,which the whole world knows about,but instead of turning to God to help them to stop the fighting,and disasters,and bring about a peaceful world,the world keeps trying to solve their own problems,which they dig themselves in deeper in chaos,instead of peace,which the Bible says when they say Peace and safety,which is when the world is coming together to try to solve their problems,that sudden destruction comes upon them,which at this point the chaos is going to increase even more,and them trying to achieve peace on earth will escape them even more,as they try to solve their problems by their own efforts.

[SUP]38 [/SUP]For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, [SUP]39 [/SUP]and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Does this sound like the world is in all this chaos you're talking about?

 

[NayborBear]

Auhwatukee: Should this event called "rapture" be THAT which you "pin" your hopes and dreams, and faith on, cuz this is ALL that the spirit of anti-christ has left for you? G'luck with that! I shall pray FOR you, that no more OF you become "prey" for it!

But, you still didn't answer my query as to the WHY you spend so much time AND spiritual eneregies, not to mention the countless posts you have put forth regarding this thing called "rapture". I understand that you DO believe in it, yet again, "For WHAT purpose?" To me? This is a VERY PASSIVE administrating of one's faith, not to mention, the teaching, AND subsequent "mindset", AND putting "pillows" on the Father's out stretched arms! Consider Ezekiel 13 (KJV...DON'T read NIV, for you will CERTAINLY find a "corrupted/euphemized" interpretation). If I were you, I would take quite literally, the words Our Lord said to Peter when Peter stated his love for Him. "Yes, Peter!...But, not ALL of you!"........

 

[PlainWord]

Auhwatukee: Should this event called "rapture" be THAT which you "pin" your hopes and dreams, and faith on, cuz this is ALL that the spirit of anti-christ has left for you? G'luck with that! I shall pray FOR you, that no more OF you become "prey" for it!

But, you still didn't answer my query as to the WHY you spend so much time AND spiritual eneregies, not to mention the countless posts you have put forth regarding this thing called "rapture". I understand that you DO believe in it, yet again, "For WHAT purpose?" To me? This is a VERY PASSIVE administrating of one's faith, not to mention, the teaching, AND subsequent "mindset", AND putting "pillows" on the Father's out stretched arms! Consider Ezekiel 13 (KJV...DON'T read NIV, for you will CERTAINLY find a "corrupted/euphemized" interpretation). If I were you, I would take quite literally, the words Our Lord said to Peter when Peter stated his love for Him. "Yes, Peter!...But, not ALL of you!"........

Brother Ahwatukee is so obsessed with this pre-trib rapture nonsense that there is no changing his mind. He won't even take a step back to reflect or consider anything that refutes his views. Such a closed mind cannot be re-opened I fear. But he's a good man and I love him as a brother in Christ.

Consider this from Paul, the so-called Pre-trib rapture lesson from 1 Cor 15:

[SUP]50 [/SUP]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. [SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— [SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [SUP]53 [/SUP]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. [SUP]54 [/SUP]So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”[SUP][g]

[SUP][g] [/SUP]Isaiah 25:8

Notice now footnote "g" and where Paul gets this from. Isaiah 25 is all about rescuing Israel and restoring her and putting down her enemies, after her tribulation!! In short, its the Day of the Lord. Wow, it isn't some pre-trib rapture after all. No, its after the GT and happens at the end of this earth age.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]He will swallow up death forever, And the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces; The rebuke of His people He will take away from all the earth; For the Lord has spoken.

When does He wipe away all tears? Before the Tribulation? I don't think so.
[/SUP]

 

[NayborBear]

I agree with ya "plain word", concerning Auhwatakee. And, like I said, I will pray for him. (and have already, for that matter...lol). God's MARINES (for a "clarification/comparison" of what a "Son of Light" is), take a much more "Pro-ACTIVE" stance and behavior (in the spiritual realms), in confronting and battling the enemies of Our Lord AND Our God, as the GREAT, in His revealings, and TERRIBLE, in its "Manifestations", come ever closer......AND CLOSER!..........Mebbe, is just me, but I can see some "miraculous" closure of the "separation of Church (if you will), and State! Betweenst a political party OF God (and those called by His Name), AND, a political party, more or less made up of those who would (and DO) OPENLY rebell AGAINST Our Lord and Our God!.....And ya CAN'T tell me that Trumps winning of the November primaries, WASN'T an abject "IN YER FACE" declaration (miracle) BY Our Lord and God, saying: "OH YEAH?!! REALLY!"...LOL.......I CAN say, tis GREAT to be alive these days baring WITNESS to these glorious events, AS they unfold! Methinks, as time goes forward we SHALL see more and more clearly this division!.....Mebbe, is just me, though.

 

[popeye]

At one time, many MANY years ago, I believed there was an event called "rapture", as my parents believed. And believed this way for quite some time. But, after I was baptised, and started asking what I started asking questions about certain interpretations of the Bible, and the "church", and was told time after time, that "I/we don't HAVE to worry about it, cuz we're not going to be here!"....I found this to be nothing SHORT of a "cop-out" from actually delving into and, deeply studying the WORD!

I no longer believes in a "rapture" of ANY kind. And, methinks I have been the more blessed because of it! As if it isn't bad enough to believe that you don't have to understanf..Just believe, and yer gonna be OUTTA here, or worry your poor little hearts out to just WHEN this "event" is going to occur?....FOR WHAT PURPOSE?!?...so, you can KNOW when it's coming, and suddenly MAKE PEACE?...Or, Push yourself that much harder trying to convert someone else to Jesus?...Why does some "knowing" take up SO MUCH of people's times and energies?..Wasn't it Jesus Himself that said, the "I come like a thief in the night!?"....So, You AIN'T gonna know, and ANY knowing you THINKS you believes is just so much a deceiving of oneself, or worse..OTHERS, that, me no thinks it would look very well on one's report card!....But, I digress!

What I really wanted to say was, with the way, and speed and veracity with which Satan is hitting this 'ol world with, as he KNOWS his time is short, I wonder WHICH doctrine these these pre er mid er post tribbers shall subscribe to NOW?!?

Cuz, simply put?...If these times AIN'T "tribulation"?.........Well?...I'll kiss yer arse!

Well
,pucker up,cuz there ain't no flying scorpions,or hail stones of fire,and you still see marine life,so,no,we ain't thar my friend.

 

[popeye]

I agree with ya "plain word", concerning Auhwatakee. And, like I said, I will pray for him. (and have already, for that matter...lol). God's MARINES (for a "clarification/comparison" of what a "Son of Light" is), take a much more "Pro-ACTIVE" stance and behavior (in the spiritual realms), in confronting and battling the enemies of Our Lord AND Our God, as the GREAT, in His revealings, and TERRIBLE, in its "Manifestations", come ever closer......AND CLOSER!..........Mebbe, is just me, but I can see some "miraculous" closure of the "separation of Church (if you will), and State! Betweenst a political party OF God (and those called by His Name), AND, a political party, more or less made up of those who would (and DO) OPENLY rebell AGAINST Our Lord and Our God!.....And ya CAN'T tell me that Trumps winning of the November primaries, WASN'T an abject "IN YER FACE" declaration (miracle) BY Our Lord and God, saying: "OH YEAH?!! REALLY!"...LOL.......I CAN say, tis GREAT to be alive these days baring WITNESS to these glorious events, AS they unfold! Methinks, as time goes forward we SHALL see more and more clearly this division!.....Mebbe, is just me, though.

What one thing can you address specifically against us heretics that we need to "correct".

Take one of our pretrib rapture verses and show us our error.

I know you are very well versed in all of them,as you have declared.

Tell us which ones that you begin to "see differently"

I can help if you like.

 

[PlainWord]

I agree with ya "plain word", concerning Auhwatakee. And, like I said, I will pray for him. (and have already, for that matter...lol). God's MARINES (for a "clarification/comparison" of what a "Son of Light" is), take a much more "Pro-ACTIVE" stance and behavior (in the spiritual realms), in confronting and battling the enemies of Our Lord AND Our God, as the GREAT, in His revealings, and TERRIBLE, in its "Manifestations", come ever closer......AND CLOSER!..........Mebbe, is just me, but I can see some "miraculous" closure of the "separation of Church (if you will), and State! Betweenst a political party OF God (and those called by His Name), AND, a political party, more or less made up of those who would (and DO) OPENLY rebell AGAINST Our Lord and Our God!.....And ya CAN'T tell me that Trumps winning of the November primaries, WASN'T an abject "IN YER FACE" declaration (miracle) BY Our Lord and God, saying: "OH YEAH?!! REALLY!"...LOL.......I CAN say, tis GREAT to be alive these days baring WITNESS to these glorious events, AS they unfold! Methinks, as time goes forward we SHALL see more and more clearly this division!.....Mebbe, is just me, though.

Thank you sir!! Popeye is another one of my misguided friends but I love him too. He is also a terrific Christian who loves the Lord, once we look past the brainwashing.

As for Trump, I believe in my gut that he will be most transformative in so many ways. I can see it being the USA and ISRAEL against the world (the UN). These two witnesses will frustrate the heck out of the globalists for about 3.5 years. Just a thought.

I do believe we are getting very close to seeing the Defiling of the Sanctuary Fortress (Western Wall) which will start the 1335 day clock until our Lord returns.

 

[PlainWord]

What one thing can you address specifically against us heretics that we need to "correct".

Take one of our pretrib rapture verses and show us our error.

I know you are very well versed in all of them,as you have declared.

Tell us which ones that you begin to "see differently"

I can help if you like.

I did this in post 183, 184 and 211 good buddy!!

 

[NayborBear]

What one thing can you address specifically against us heretics that we need to "correct".

Take one of our pretrib rapture verses and show us our error.

I know you are very well versed in all of them,as you have declared.

Tell us which ones that you begin to "see differently"

I can help if you like.

Let me ask you, in retrospect, sir! To what GOOD purpose does it serve YOU, as a subscriber of such a false narrative/interpretation? Does it profit ye by a MORE secure salvation? To a front row seat in Heaven, perhaps? I'm denouncing the Rapture, or removal of the church from ANY tribulation, sir!...I'm trying to understand what BENEFITS of SUBSCRIBING to your false narrative are there? More THEN believing John-3:16? Have ye already informed the Lord of the harvest, and His angels that you don't WANT or, feel a need to have any more "tares" separated from ye, as yer going to be raptured, and there is no NEED of Him to pay His angels overtime? That there is no NEEDS of ye to "pick up your own cross" any further, as Jesus can carry IT, TO the rapture FOR you? Ya see?....I am, merely trying to understands what the benefit er benefits ARE, of "subscribing/ADHERING" TO SUCH A RIDICULOUS doctrine. Which is actually ONLY a "theory"?.....You wish to rely your HOPE of reward of salvation, on THIS? And tell me, to what was the Father referring to when He stated, that "BECAUSE my children have been so lazy and insolent, and stupid?.....I'm going to MAKE them BELIEVE a lie!".....Ever wondered about what "lie" that COULD be? You are asking me to refute that those words are in the Bible. I cannot, for they ARE in there. You are asking me to refute YOUR interpretation of them? I believe I have given more then several refutiations of such a silly silly theory! I'm TRYING to help y'all here who subscribe to this rapture of the Church! Or, maybe it's just more meat then ye can chew!...I dunno!.....

 

[GaryA]

Gary,



How can you know this?

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.


[SUP]6 [/SUP]These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Of the plagues mentioned, withholding rain and turning waters to blood, only turning waters to blood is found in the trumpets.

That is not the only thing there - look again...

Go look at the Trumpet columns of my Order of Events chart. ( Look in my signature for a link. )

Look carefully at the verses about the sun and moon.

Look carefully at the verses about the bottomless pit.

When is the bottomless pit opened? Who comes out of the bottomless pit? Who kills the two witnesses?

 

[bluto]

What one thing can you address specifically against us heretics that we need to "correct".

Take one of our pretrib rapture verses and show us our error.

I know you are very well versed in all of them,as you have declared.

Tell us which ones that you begin to "see differently"

I can help if you like.

What one thing can you address specifically against us heretics that we need to "correct".

Take one of our pretrib rapture verses and show us our error.

I know you are very well versed in all of them,as you have declared.

Tell us which ones that you begin to "see differently"

I can help if you like.

I think it's time for bluto to take popeye's spinach away but first of all I want say non of you pre-tribbers are heretics at least not on the issue of when the second coming happen. Now, having said that I will address you keep asking us to provide a verse supporting the post-tribulation view. And in this post your asking what you guys need to correct regarding the pre-tribulation view.

Ok, I will on both counts. Like I have been saying in many of my post Jesus was asked the question by His disciples, "And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, AND THE END OF THE AGE?" (Matthew 24:3)

Jesus then starts to expound on this issue starting at vs4 and continuing all through chapter 24 of Matthew and even into Matthew 25. Here is the interesting part because last night when I was sleeping the Lord gave me a verse but I could not remember the reference. All I remembered was "those that endure to the end will be saved." I woke up and looked it up and "Volia," I find out it was at Matthew 24:13.

"But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved." I knew right away according to the context this was not talking about salvation proper. I also tied what Jesus said about the "end" at vs3 to this verse by asking myself a question? "If were goning to be raptured like you guys say then what "end" is Jesus talking about that we have to endure? Especially what Jesus says will happen after vs13? I also looked up Strong's number 4982 and you can read the following yourself. Strong's Greek: 4982. σώζω (sózó) -- to save Please notice it says to bring to safety or safely through is the idea. Just like salvation can mean being delivered to or from something.


IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[tanakh]

Let me ask you, in retrospect, sir! To what GOOD purpose does it serve YOU, as a subscriber of such a false narrative/interpretation? Does it profit ye by a MORE secure salvation? To a front row seat in Heaven, perhaps? I'm denouncing the Rapture, or removal of the church from ANY tribulation, sir!...I'm trying to understand what BENEFITS of SUBSCRIBING to your false narrative are there? More THEN believing John-3:16? Have ye already informed the Lord of the harvest, and His angels that you don't WANT or, feel a need to have any more "tares" separated from ye, as yer going to be raptured, and there is no NEED of Him to pay His angels overtime? That there is no NEEDS of ye to "pick up your own cross" any further, as Jesus can carry IT, TO the rapture FOR you? Ya see?....I am, merely trying to understands what the benefit er benefits ARE, of "subscribing/ADHERING" TO SUCH A RIDICULOUS doctrine. Which is actually ONLY a "theory"?.....You wish to rely your HOPE of reward of salvation, on THIS? And tell me, to what was the Father referring to when He stated, that "BECAUSE my children have been so lazy and insolent, and stupid?.....I'm going to MAKE them BELIEVE a lie!".....Ever wondered about what "lie" that COULD be? You are asking me to refute that those words are in the Bible. I cannot, for they ARE in there. You are asking me to refute YOUR interpretation of them? I believe I have given more then several refutiations of such a silly silly theory! I'm TRYING to help y'all here who subscribe to this rapture of the Church! Or, maybe it's just more meat then ye can chew!...I dunno!.....

As an ex Pre Tribber I can tell you that you are flogging a dead horse because whatever refutation you put forward it will not be considered. Its like debating with a cult member .