To all the post trib and no trib believers.

GaryA · Dec 28, 2016

Revelation 15:

[SUP]1[/SUP] And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Look up the Greek words that make up that last phrase. You should find that the "sense and tense" of the words "for in them" show something that is "completely and fully inside" ( not part of something that also has a part that is "outside" ).

This is why I say:

'vials' => "wrath"

Yes - there are other plagues; however, this verse defines these seven last plagues, collectively, as the Wrath of God. They are separate from the 'trumpets' in this specific regard.

The phrase "is filled up" comes from a single Greek word, and is a verb.

There is no concept of "the last of the wrath" in this verse; rather, it is defining "all of the wrath", collectively, as being "contained" in the seven last plagues, collectively.

The word 'last' in this verse only applies to the plagues. It does not apply to the wrath.

GaryA · Dec 28, 2016

Matthew 24:

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 600"]
[TR]
[TD][SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days[/TD]
[TD]reference to the end of the tribulation[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[/TD]
[TD]two witnesses bring about 'trumpet' events[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][SUP]30[/SUP] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[/TD]
[TD]Jesus returns[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][SUP]31[/SUP] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.[/TD]
[TD]'resurrection' and 'rapture'[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

For more detailed information, follow the link in my signature to my Order of Events chart.

Ahwatukee · Dec 28, 2016

As I pointed out previously, if the bowl judgments, as a unit are LAST, then other wrath had to come before them. You're ducking the logical truth of this matter and that because it doesn't fit with your belief and so you redefine meanings. This is not about the meaning of a word here, but is about the context:

seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed

Equals =

Wrath had to take place prior to the bowls of wrath

I'm really tired of all this distortion of scripture!!!

Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not overcome it." Currently the church is still being built. Once the church is completed, the Lord will descend and gather the church according to his promise. Shortly after that, the antichrist will be revealed and will establish that seven year agreement with Israel, with the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments taking place throughout that entire seven years, until the Lord returns to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. There is no slicing and dicing of tribulation and wrath during that period.

Currently, all believers are susceptible to the common trials and tribulation which come at the hands of men with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background. After the church has been gathered, the time period that follows will all be God's wrath. Not man's wrath nor Satan's wrath, but God's wrath, with Jesus returning shortly after the 7th bowl has been poured out.

God's wrath is mentioned within each set of seven judgments:

6th Seal:
"They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

7Th Trumpet:
"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your
great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.

The seven bowls below, complete the wrath of God that began with the seals and trumpets above. They are all apart of the same tribulation resulting from God's wrath.

Seven Bowls:
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."

Ahwatukee · Dec 28, 2016

GaryA said:

The word "tribulation" is not unique to just referring to the common tribulation that Jesus said believers would suffer. The tribulation that is being spoken of is God's tribulation, his wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

There in Matt.24:29 when it says "Immediately" it means that Jesus is returning right then, hence the word "immediately." And therefore, there is no a space of time after the word "Immediately for the wrath of God to take place.

Everything that Jesus mentions throughout Matt.24:1-31 is God's wrath, with God's wrath ending when Christ returns in Matt.24:29-31.

Matt.24:29-31 are all apart of the same event as Christ is returning to the earth.

Regarding your claim about the two witnesses bringing about the trumpets, there is nothing in any of the scriptures that would support this claim. It's just self application. Conjecture! Please show us the verses that link the two witnesses as those who bring about the trumpet judgments.

The above scripture is not referring to a resurrection and rapture Gary! When Christ returns to end the age, as described in the parable of the weeds and wheat, the angels will be gathering those people who will have made it through the wrath of God alive. The angels will be collecting living people who are still in their mortal bodies. The reference to "the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" is referring to the living being gathered from all over the earth, not being resurrected and raptured.

PlainWord · Dec 28, 2016

tanakh said:

Isn't it interesting that many Post Tribbers were former pre-tribbers, myself included? I have yet to find a single Post Tribber who switched to the Pre-Trib view. I suspect the reason is we know their arguments since we used to support their view but they never bothered trying to see if our view makes more sense.

PlainWord · Dec 28, 2016

GaryA said:

I think it's hard to conclude that the two witnesses are responsible for the 7 trumpets especially if the figurative language of the trumpets is not understood. It's pretty clear that the two witnesses cannot be responsible for Trumpets 5 and 6 because the one directing the action of Trumpet 5 is a certain bad guy, not two good guys:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.

Likewise it would be very difficult to attribute the killing of 1/3 of mankind by two dudes when the text says that an army numbering 200 million do the killing.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.

I can go on and show the two witnesses have nothing to do with Trumpet 4 either as the symbolism of dimming light can only be the falling away by 1/3 of those with faith. This of course is predicted by Paul and precedes the Man of Sin and return of Christ.

BTW, is there a bigger idiot than John Kerry, not counting Obama of course?

PlainWord · Dec 28, 2016

Once the church is completed, the Lord will descend and gather the church according to his promise. Shortly after that, the antichrist will be revealed and will establish that seven year agreement with Israel, with the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments taking place throughout that entire seven years, until the Lord returns to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. There is no slicing and dicing of tribulation and wrath during that period.

It sure would be nice if there was any passage that taught any of this.

GaryA · Dec 29, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

No -- other plagues had to come before them.

I have not redefined anything -- you have...

It is about the meaning of words AND the context -- ALL of which support the explanation I made previously.

Ahwatukee said:

No, it did not.

Why do you think so? ( without relying on circular reasoning, or using as proof what you are trying to prove )

Ahwatukee said:

"Me too!!!"

Ahwatukee said:

Matthew 16:

[SUP]18[/SUP] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

If the Church leaves this Earth -- and one soul subsequently makes it into hell -- hell will have prevailed against the Church.

( "The Church is not going anywhere..." -- There will always be [ at least ] a 'remnant' of the Church present on the Earth. )

Ahwatukee said:

'mentioned' - yes; defined in a way that includes the 'seals' or 'trumpets' - no.

Ahwatukee said:

Revelation 6:

[SUP]12[/SUP] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [SUP]13[/SUP] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [SUP]14[/SUP] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [SUP]15[/SUP] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [SUP]16[/SUP] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [SUP]17[/SUP] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The 'timeline' in the context of these verses spans - or, overlaps - the 'trumpets' ( 12 ) and the 'vials' ( 12-17 ).

The saying of the men in verses 15-17 is based on the 'vials' part of the description. It does not tie seal 6 to the wrath.

The 'seals' are like "viewports" into the future ( from John's perspective ). They allow us to see 'events' in a specific "window" of time. The window of time of seal 6 overlaps the 'trumpets', the Second Coming of Christ, and the 'vials'.

Ahwatukee said:

Revelation 11:

[SUP]17[/SUP] Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. [SUP]18[/SUP] And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The 'timeline' in the context of these verses spans over 1000 years. And, the specific details that are listed are not in chronological order.

It is at the end of the sequence of 'trumpet' events, "looking forward" to the 'vials'; the 'wrath' is referring to the coming 'vials', not the past 'trumpets'. The words "is come" means "presently coming" ( "not here yet, but soon will be" - not "already has come, and is still here" ) -- it is referring to something that is post-trumpets.

Ahwatukee said:

I keep telling you, and you keep ignoring it -- 'tribulation' and 'wrath' are two different things. In 'event' terms, they have nothing whatsoever to do with each other -- i.e. - the tribulation does not come from God's wrath - and, it is in no way any part of the 'Wrath of God'.

Believe-it-or-not!

GaryA · Dec 29, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

Whaaaaa???

Absolutely nothing that Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:1-31 has anything to do with the 'Wrath of God' -- which is post-'Second Coming of Christ'. ( speaking in 'event' terms )

GaryA · Dec 29, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

Matthew 24:

[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [SUP]30[/SUP] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31[/SUP] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What will happen "Immediately after the tribulation of those days"...???

It is not this!

( speaking in 'grammar of the language' terms )

The words 'And then' mean that [ what follows 'And then' ] in this color is [ at least some time ] after what came before it - which is in red ( notice the colon ).

And, it turns out that [ what is in red ] describes events that span more than "just a moment" in time...

"So --- No. I don't think so..."

GaryA · Dec 29, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

I already have [ shown some verses ] -- are you paying attention? Go read post #218. It is a start...

Ahwatukee said:

So -- you are saying that the 'elect' are the 'wicked' who are "left" after the Wrath???

GaryA · Dec 29, 2016

PlainWord said:

They do not care if any other view makes more sense. Nor will they give any other view "a chance" to make more sense. They are only 'playing their tape', according to what they were taught. It is all they know how to do...

GaryA · Dec 29, 2016

PlainWord said:

They could be responsible for this [ much ]:

Revelation 9:

[SUP]1[/SUP] And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. [SUP]2[/SUP] And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

I am not saying they are responsible for every-little-detail.

I am saying that - in general - they bring about the 'trumpet' events.

The fact that the opening of the bottomless pit "kicks off" other subsequent things as a result of it being opened does not invalidate what I am suggesting.

PlainWord said:

I am not saying they are personally responsible for all of that...

PlainWord said:

Well --- I believe the sun / moon / etc. description is referring to literal occurrences...

Keep studying those verses!

NayborBear · Dec 29, 2016

LOL!!!.......Well then, there seems to be more then several of us that have posted in here that must appear QUITE LOONEY, to these guys, and or gals!...lol I fear FOR these peoples, yanno? But, WHEN God sez He's gonna MAKES 'em BELIEVES a lie? And ya CAN'T "reason" with 'em! I tried Lord! I asked 'em what benefit is it to believes in a rapture of the church. And ye can't asks 'em questions about it, cuz they won't, or can't answer without some kinda psycho-babble reply, that is intended to run ya around in circles in attempts to confuse ya! Or run ya down into some "rabbit hole" to some "vanishing point", where they try to make ye forgets what YOUR intention/s were....While all the while they doin' the "Jonah Dance"!....We KNOW tis the author of confusion, doin' it! But can ya get them to see it? SADDENS my heart, it does!

....THEN?.....IT JEZ PISSES ME OFF, that this subscribing to this false narrative, ERASES EVERY PARABLE JESUS EVER TAUGHT!

Ahwatukee · Dec 29, 2016

GaryA said:

From your response above, it is no wonder you don't understand end-time events, as you don't even understand that Matt.24 with all of the signs that Jesus mentions, is when God's wrath taking place. Allow me draw some comparisons for you paralleling Matthew and Revelation:

2nd Seal: Takes peace from the earth so that men kill each other

* Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" - Matt.24:7

* Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other.

3rd Seal: Famine and high food costs

* There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. - Matt.24:7

* When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “Two pounds of wheat for a day’s wages, and six pounds of barley for a day’s wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!” - Rev.6

The Abomination that causes desolation

* He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. ” - Dan.9:27

* So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. And let no one in the field return for his cloak.
- Matt.24:15

* Because of the signs he was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. - Rev.13:14-15

According to Dan.9:27, the setting up of the abomination marks the middle of the seven years. In Matt.24:15,, Jesus quotes Dan.9:27 which marks the middle of the seven years within his answer to the disciples regarding the signs leading up to his return. Therefore, Matt.24:15 marks the middle of the seven years in Jesus narrative, with Matt.24:29-31 marking the end of the last 3 1/2 with his return to the earth to end the age. As Jesus arrives, he sends his angels throughout the earth and they "first" collect the wicked and bring them back to where Jesus is at Armageddon, where they will be killed by that double-edged sword. Following that, the birds that will have been gathered together will eat their flesh. Rev.19:17

After the time that the church is gathered and that antichrist is revealed, the wrath of God commences throughout that entire time period, with the 7th bowl being poured out just before Christ returns. And if you don't believe that, Jesus himself made that clear when he interjected the following after the 6th bowl is poured out:

* “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

GaryA · Dec 29, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

No.

I believe that - what is described in Matthew 24 - occurs over a span of ~2000 years - from before 70 A.D. to some point-in-time in the not-too-far future; however, none of it pertains to the 'Wrath of God'. ( speaking in 'event' terms )

Ahwatukee · Dec 29, 2016

Hello NayborBear,

So, without running you around in circles, here is the answer for why the church will be gathered prior to God's wrath.

* The majority of the inhabitants of the earth will be decimated and all human government dismantled

* The church is not appointed to suffer the wrath of God, because Jesus already suffered it

* Jesus promised that believers that he would keep them out of the hour of trial

* At the time the church is gathered, we receive our immortal and glorified bodies

* The gathering of the church is called the blessed hope. It would not be a blessed hope if the gathering took place after God's wrath.

The Lord is going to remove living believers from the earth prior to his wrath, because we have been reconciled to God through Christ. We have been credited with righteousness for faith.

You need to understand that there is a difference between Christ's appearing to gather the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end that age. These are two separate events, with different purposes. You also need to understand that there is a difference between the common trials and tribulation that Jesus said believers would have vs. God's coming, unprecedented wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Until you understand these, you will not understand the order of end-time events.

GaryA · Dec 29, 2016

NayborBear said:

The passage that I believe you are referring to here is actually talking about the 'wicked' on the Earth -- not Christians...

Ahwatukee · Dec 29, 2016

GaryA said:

"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

After Jesus gave an account of the signs that would take place leading up to his return to the earth to end the age, he then said the scripture above. In it, he reveals that all of those signs (minus the destruction of the temple) will take place in the last generation culminating at his return to the earth. Within the Bible, a generation is listed as 40, 70 and 100 years, therefore, those signs must take place no earlier than within the last 100 years before Christ returns to the earth to end the age, not 2000 years.

Ahwatukee · Dec 29, 2016

GaryA said:

Hi GaryA,

It's not a matter of not caring about another view. It's that the reasons given are not scriptural, nor do they make sense. I have always been open to anything that is plausible possibility. But I won't entertain many of the ridiculous interpretations that are out there. People are getting their information and adopting their beliefs from You Tube, websites, books and hearsay.

In your case, you have a distorted view of the wrath of God and when occurs. And you don't recognize that there is a difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to end the age. As long as you continue to err regarding these, you won't get it.

To all the post trib and no trib believers.

GaryA

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