Tongues Again???

[presidente]

If Hebrew Torah scrolls were expensive in the first century, that is not evidence that the word 'prophesy' in the New Testament means something radically different from what it meant for Moses, Isaiah, or Jeremiah to prophesy.

If Hebrew Torah scrolls were expensive and rare in the first century, that does not have anything to do with the interpretation of I Corinthians 13 that some cessationists hold to (but not others) which makes their understanding out to be far greater than the apostle Paul's.

But here is a comment from Alfred Edersheim's book on the price of Torah scrolls in the era in question.

From the extreme labour and care bestowed on them, Hebrew manuscripts
of the Bible were enormously dear, as we infer from a curious Talmudical
notice, {Gitt. 35 last line and b.} where a common wollen wrap, which of
course was very cheap, a copy of the Psalms, of Job, and torn pieces from
Proverbs, are together valued at five maneh, say, about 19l. Although this
notice dates from the third or fourth century, it is not likely that the cost of
Hebrew Biblical MSS. was much lower at the time of Jesus. This would, of
course, put their possession well nigh out of common reach. On the other
hand, we are able to form an idea of the cheapness of Greek manuscripts
from what we know of the price of books in Rome at the beginning of our
era. Hundreds of slaves were there engaged copying what one dictated.
The result was not only the publication of as large editions as in our days,
but their production at only about double the cost of what are now known
as ‘cheap’ or ‘people’s editions.’ Probably it would be safe to compute,
that as much matter as would cover sixteen pages of small print might, in
such cases, be sold at the rate of about sixpence, and in that ratio.
Accordingly, manuscripts in Greek or Latin, although often incorrect, must
have been easily attainable, and this would have considerable influence on
making the Greek version of the Old Testament the ‘people’s Bible.’

From The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah: Volume I
by Alfred Edersheim
http://www.briarchasechurch.org/V6A-E/EDR_LTJ1.PDF

 

[jaybird88]

why do we not have any examples of Jesus praying in this prayer language? and not one example of anyone doing this in the entire Hebrew bible, Moses, Samuel, Isaiah, Enoch, all those great prophets and patriarchs and not one example of them praying in this prayer language.

 

[presidente]

why do we not have any examples of Jesus praying in this prayer language? and not one example of anyone doing this in the entire Hebrew bible, Moses, Samuel, Isaiah, Enoch, all those great prophets and patriarchs and not one example of them praying in this prayer language.

Why would they have to? Why don't we have any examples of Jesus appearing to Moses or Samuel and sending them to the Gentiles? Why don't we have any records of Enoch turning water into wine? Why is there no reference to Abraham splitting the Red Sea?

There is an old midrash about the children of Israel speaking in the 70 languages of the world at Sinai.

 

[jaybird88]

Why would they have to?

because it makes it look very very very out of the ordinary, thats why.

 

[wolfwint]

Did I say that? They spoke in tongues and prophesied the wondrous works of God. All will speak something when baptized in Holy Spirit. There are several gifts that use the voice.

Well we all have a tongue to talk with, but so far I know the theme of this thread is about the gift of speaking in tongues
So the OT people had not the Holy Spirit like we have it since pentecost. So where is it said, that all christians have the gift of speaking in tongues? As some claim.

 

[wolfwint]

Thats part of the problem. Cessationists always point to Pentecost as the end all and be all of the gift of tongues but in fact it is only a glimpse of their intended purpose. Corinthians dives deeper and informs you of the many ways in which the gift can be operated in and what for.

The fact that at Pentecost no interpreter was needed for those tongues (to be understood) but later in Corinthians it speaks of tongues that need to be interpreted (supernaturally) ought to raise eyebrows that there is a difference of operation. There is more to the gift of tongues than was revealed at Pentecost.

Hi Ben, maby its because the purpose of pentecost was different to the gift of speaking in tongues which is given in 1. Corithians? But because of makeing no difference people come to a wrong conclusion!
Can you say me how a christian becomes the gift of speaking in tongues? Did he got it like all other gifts which mentioned in the NT epistels? Ore does a christian receive the gift of speaking in tongues as result of been baptised with the Holy Spirit, as the pentecostals since more than 100 years and later the charismatics claim?

 

[jaybird88]

guten morgen wolf!

i want a schnauzer with my wiener schnitzel.

 

[Demi777]

Well I think someone CAN have all gifts if God wants them to.. But I dont think all get every gift. I find sometimes people come into situations where God provides someone with the ability to use a gift that person doesnt usually have for that situation.
Every believer can get the holy Spirit but tongues isnt a necessarity to ''prove'' salvation or having the holy Spirit. Tongues is only the holy spirit speaking through u in a different language or even in your normal language. I find it a little sad that people kinda limit to unknown tongues. The holy Spirit speaks all languages. I dont see a difference there.
The holy Spirit also manifests through love, understanding and more. Not only tongues.
Just my 2 cents

 

[Demi777]

Why do you want to eat a dog with your schnitzel?? lol what is wrong with you

guten morgen wolf!

i want a schnauzer with my wiener schnitzel.

 

[88]

You have to go to a German deli...

 

[peacefulbeliever]

because it makes it look very very very out of the ordinary, thats why.

It was out of the ordinary!!!! The Spirit is NOW within man when one is born again.

 

[VCO]

I am not a cessationist, however I do not agree with much of the Pentecostal position. We have something today that the Corinthians did not have at the time of Paul's writings, the final revelation of God given to John. So we have the whole revelation of God today, it is our NT. Prophecy may be used to encourage people but no new doctrine, that has been settled. Many Pentecostals have had their lives turned upside down by a person giving them a prophecy that told them what God wanted them to do. I do not need another person to tell me what God wants me to do, I have the Holy Spirit and God can speak directly to me. Paul had a unique relationship with the churches because Jesus personally gave to him the doctrine to give to the churches. There are no Pauls today receiving new doctrine for the church, we all have the same Holy Spirit and the same NT, so we are all on equal ground and do not need to seek a person to tell us what God wants from us.

Here is a documentary that I just found by a Pentecostal, who points out how and when many fell for deceiving spirits, causing false signs to get mixed in with the true works of the Holy Spirit, without being recognized as generated by deceiving spirits, even by Pentecostal Church elders. In Hinduism this EXPERIENCE is known as a Kundalini Awakening, which certainly is NOT CONTROLLED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, but it is obviously controlled by demons.

THIS FILM is made by a Pentecostal, who is a Tongues speaker, Tongues believing, Born Again Christian, and he is POINTING OUT the difference between the TRUE SPIRITUAL GIFTS and the Kundalini Awakening, demon controlled FALSE SIGNS that have infiltrated a lot of your Churches.

PLEASE, CEE, samuel23, and other Charismatic and Pentecostal leaders, watch this 27.5 minute film. It is scary how the Kundalini Awakening false signs have been mistaken as something from the Holy Spirit.

[video=youtube;a5ZvPwFamqs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5ZvPwFamqs[/video]


Non-Charismatics, you need to watch this video too.

 

[VCO]

guten morgen wolf!

i want a schnauzer with my wiener schnitzel.

I am perfectly happy with my Dachshund, thank you.

 

[zone]

....Charismatic and Pentecostal leaders, watch this 27.5 minute film. It is scary how the Kundalini Awakening false signs have been mistaken as something from the Holy Spirit..

you'd think ppl would drop the cult and run for their lives, but how many (if any) will watch it?

 

[garee]

If Hebrew Torah scrolls were expensive in the first century, that is not evidence that the word 'prophesy' in the New Testament means something radically different from what it meant for Moses, Isaiah, or Jeremiah to prophesy.

If Hebrew Torah scrolls were expensive and rare in the first century, that does not have anything to do with the interpretation of I Corinthians 13 that some cessationists hold to (but not others) which makes their understanding out to be far greater than the apostle Paul's.

To prophecy today is to simply declare the revealed will of God as His interpretation to us. He is no longer bringing any new revelations. What we had in part up unto the last chapter, Revelation we now have the whole will of God with no law missing by which we could know him more intimately. The warning remains we, are not to add or subtract from His book of prophecy. That possibility is sealed u till the end of time.

Why would a person have a desire to receive more that He is giving and therefore go above that which is written . Scripture say the elect will not be deceived they heed the warning not to add to the book of prophecy.iI is there that the father of lies can get his foot in the door.

 

[VCO]

That's exactly what Paul is taking about, but he doesn't say put away your spiritual toys, he says grow up in love and then use spiritual gifts in love. That's why we seek prophesy, not just tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:1 ESV
Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.

Cee, check out my post #652. I think you will agree wholeheartedly with that Video, where a Tongues Believing Pentecostal, is warning others about the dangers of thinking everything that feels good and appears miraculous, is of the Holy Spirit. There is a movement in the Charismatic Churches that are doing that and falling for the doctrines of demons for real, straight out of Hinduism.

 

[VCO]

you'd think ppl would drop the cult and run for their lives, but how many (if any) will watch it?

Because I posted it, very few. They have to realize this is really happening, and start cerculating it amongst themelselves. The VIDEO is by a Tongues Believing Pentecostal warning other Charismatics about trusting everything that feels good and appears miraculous. Many have lost the ability to honestly test the spirits, and hence they are falling for the doctrines of demons. I suspect the demons are laughing amongst themselves, about how easy that was.

1 Timothy 4:1 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,


[video=youtube;lmGiu9JfbIs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmGiu9JfbIs[/video]

 

[shittim]

After the Crucifixion the believers, who already had the residential gift of the Holy Spirit, were told to tarry in Jerusalem for a while and they would be baptized in the Holy Spirit and with power, that was when the gift of prayer language was given, and for the furthering of the gospel, that is why the old testament figures and Jesus did not use that gift, it hadn't been imparted.
Best wishes

 

[notuptome]

After the Crucifixion the believers, who already had the residential gift of the Holy Spirit, were told to tarry in Jerusalem for a while and they would be baptized in the Holy Spirit and with power, that was when the gift of prayer language was given, and for the furthering of the gospel, that is why the old testament figures and Jesus did not use that gift, it hadn't been imparted.
Best wishes

You make this stuff up as you go right?

It was a filling with power not a baptism. Those who were baptized were those who were saved through hearing the sermon preached at Pentecost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[peacefulbeliever]

After the Crucifixion the believers, who already had the residential gift of the Holy Spirit, were told to tarry in Jerusalem for a while and they would be baptized in the Holy Spirit and with power, that was when the gift of prayer language was given, and for the furthering of the gospel, that is why the old testament figures and Jesus did not use that gift, it hadn't been imparted.
Best wishes

Yes, it is the fulfillment of what John the Baptist said: Mark 1:6-8
And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;

And preached, saying, There comes one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

And: Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that comes after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

And: Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Everyone who repents and confesses Jesus as Lord receives the gift of holy spirit - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38 . . . . And that gift has nine manifestations (1 Cor. 12:7-10) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:13)