Torah Observant Christians.

posthuman · Jan 22, 2020

that was @Blik who said the law is done away with iirc

i've died to it. not one jot or tittle needs to pass away or be erased and replaced in order for a dead man to be completely out of the jurisdiction of the law.
please have a look at Romans 6, 7 & 8.

y'all are the ones with the 'jots and tittles have passed away' positions, not me.
if you reject Christ, then you are under Torah, and there are no more sacrifices for sin, so you're pretty much hopelessly doomed.

Hazelelponi · Jan 22, 2020

Whispered said:

What you said was what I believe in makes me antisemitic...

lol. I don't think you'd recognize real antisemitic beliefs if that's the case.

I can say I used to be antisemitic, but I wasn't Christian then either when I was.

Believing what the Bible teaches is true, does not an antisemite make.

I don't need anyone telling me their version (incorrect version) of what I believe either, they are my beliefs, I know what they are and are not.

posthuman · Jan 22, 2020

Hazelelponi said:

i get that a lot too. half the time i'm suckered into wasting all kinds of energy correcting people, then feel like i ought to have known it doesn't really matter what i say or how many times i try to explain over and over; they're not going to listen. when i do it, i do it with the hope that my pessimism is unfounded. once in a while someone hears, so i don't lose hope altogether

wanna argue about infant baptism?
((i'm joking!))

Hazelelponi · Jan 22, 2020

posthuman said:

Yeah, I have to say I'm unconvinced as well that any of these discussions are actually fruitful...

My husband always says that when posting online your not making your case to the person who's arguing with you, but rather your making your case to the potential future reader.

But he has such a low opinion of religious debate that he refuses to have any discussions with anyone about religion online...

He's made a deal with God, he says that he will only answer the questions of someone who asks him a direct question, in person so he knows how best to answer.

I'm starting to agree with him truth be told, but I do find myself learning a lot through these discussions too, and so I'm still willing to have them. I see areas I don't know enough about etc. and it pushes me to learn more.

I didn't even realize I believed in covenant theology until I was confronted with and arguing against its opposite, for instance. I'd never even heard the term.. lol

But sure.. we can discuss infant baptism! haha.. (just kidding myself)

Whispered · Jan 22, 2020

Hazelelponi said:

Oh, make no mistake, when you aren't able to read someone's post without internalizing it as a personal attack, and have no idea of the difference between Replacement Theology, Covenant Theology, and Dispensationalism is, I am under no delusion that you are able to learn anything.
I posted my other posts so as to inform other people who may take you seriously in whatever compels you to play victim of a personal attack that exists in your mind alone. So much like Posthuman that is. Makes one wonder.

May you receive in return a thousand fold what you intend for others here. Amen.

I won't be reading you anymore. It isn't good for the soul. And yet, if you are so "convinced" these discussions are unfruitful, it shouldn't be necessary to ignore your future attacks since self respect would preclude you from participating in what you've judged thus far as unfruitful.

Whispered · Jan 22, 2020

SUNDOWNSAM said:

I wouldn't trust they'll care to change their perceptions in this area of study. They contradict themselves, scripture, etc... What is afoot here is controversy. The worship of controversy. Of which the fruit is contradiction and misrepresentation of the words of God. And among more than one aligned in that demonstration here among us in BDF. Those who are in that commitment rarely if ever venture outside of here. This is their hunting ground.
Recall the Book of 1st Corinthians chapter 2

Hazelelponi · Jan 22, 2020

Whispered said:

Replacement theology isnt a theology, it's the insulting term for covenant theology so given by its detractors. But make no mistake, when people say replacement theology they are referring to covenant theology.

I do know the difference between it and dispensationalism though.

As for my pessimism toward online religious discussions, it wasn't made here - so you are safe from any personal insult although when you read your own posts with a critical eye you might be able to see why some might see religious discussion as particularly unfruitful - since it ends so often with fruit that is not born of the Spirit, but rather of the flesh.

And my husband's ideas were probably made decades ago, well prior to his meeting even me...

But I am glad for your thousand-fold wishes, I pray so as well.. I was told this forum was far nicer than the other, although with threads that end like this one I do wonder..

feel free to ignore me though, I keep wondering why you continue on after calling my beliefs anti-semitic.

Guojing · Jan 23, 2020

Hazelelponi said:

You should think about discussion as not really trying to change the other person's mind. You can explain to them but you cannot understand it for them.

A discussion is more about trying to understand better your own point of view. It is said that you cannot really understand something if you cannot put it in simple words and arguments. The time you spend formulating your explanation helps you to understand your own beliefs much better.

And as an additional bonus, you also understand the possible loopholes in your views, and understand better why some people will never accept your view, because they start with different premises that they considered to be unquestionable. The latter are called "axioms".

SUNDOWNSAM · Jan 23, 2020

posthuman said:

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The law of God through Moses said, though shalt not commit adultery, through the mouth of Yeshua he said, you lust after a woman and you committed adultery in your heart. Are they two different laws or the same, but Yeshua elaborated on, one was giving on tablets of stone for you to have the knowledge of what is sin, now being in your heart the Spirit of God will convict you according to the law of God.

How can the law of God be above the law that he had given through Moses? What the Apostle Paul understands is that the Law of Yeshua fulfills the Ten Commandment. Did you read and CONSTRUED the passage where it talks about the teacher of the law and Yeshua?

Read Genesis 26:5, tell me what Laws and Commandments did Abraham a man justified by faith alone held? It goes to show you that one care keep the law while he is justified by faith apart from the law. I believe before Israel had them on tablets of stone God gave them verbally, then on tablets of stones and then stored them in the minds and written them in the hearts as he spoke through the mouth of Jeremiah.

From the Torah you will seed that the the law of Yeshua where also given by God through Moses and those to laws were given to fulfill the Ten Commandments and the teacher of the law understood this.

Read John 14:15, Yeshua said, if ye love me, KEEP my commandments (plural), and why did he use KEEP? Because God's commandments can be kept. Cross-reference with verse 23 - 25 and I will conclude it with !st John 5:2,3 (read).

You need to take the Scriptures as a whole and not pull verse out of context to fit your view because what you are doing in your ignorance (respectfully stated) is distorting the word of God, what he made clear when he first spoke.

SUNDOWNSAM · Jan 23, 2020

posthuman said:

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You post like you are insinuating that they are done with. You are correct the curse of the law does not fall upon the believers because Yeshua took the curse of the law to the cross (not the law) and those who believe, accepting his atonement are redeemed from the curse of the law, but that does not mean that the law is done away with. Yeshua said, those of love him will KEEP his commandments (Plural).

As for Romans 6,7,8, I am sure I responded in the past, but focus on Romans 8:4, that the righteousness of that law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. How do one fulfilled the righteousness of the law? Walking after the Spirit and when one walks after the Spirit the two commandments (love God & love they neighbor) becomes part of us and fulfills the laws that he stored in our minds and written in our hearts. The Ten Commandment is a walk to obedience, the other toward is the answer to how they are kept and fulfilled, but we need to walk after the Spirit so that they can be fulfilled.

You tell me to please look at Romans 6,7,8. You should know by now that I respond accordingly, read all what is sent because the Spirit of God can enlighten my mind with new teachings, but as stated, I read this in the past and responded according.

You just need to now this... Walk after the Spirit seeking first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and as you do this the Spirit of God will fulfill the righteousness of the law with you being aware of it. If you can understand this then do not push God's law aside all you have to say, they are not done away with, but one think you understand that they are fulfilled by keeping two commandments, as long as we walk in the Spirit. I won't burden Gentile believers with the Sabbath and believe that if one accepts God's law he will be taught the truth about the Sabbath that it should be kept. What is important is that we know that we are brothers in Yeshua, not denying who he is and when it comes to the doctrine of Salvation we are in agreement to the word of God, what God made clear when he first spoke.

SUNDOWNSAM · Jan 23, 2020

SUNDOWNSAM said:

Whispered said:

-----------------------

I will read 1st Corinthians 2.

This is the problems, God was clear when he first spoke and if he was clear why do people have to go to the Scriptures trying to interpreted the word of God unless their God was not clear. If one allows the Spirit of God to enlighten their mind with an understand of the truth of God's word, what God made clear when he first spoke one will have a clear picture of what God made clear when he first spoke.

I dare not to trying interpret God's word, I continue to ask God and down the road he enlightens my mind with an understanding of the truth of his word. Give you an example... Why did Paul have Timothy circumcised? Why Saul told David you will have my daughter as you wife by getting me 100 forskin, why forskin as question I have been asking God for over two years? I do not read books when it comes to doctrines because many have distorted God's word, I only read books of encouragements.

SUNDOWNSAM · Jan 23, 2020

Guojing said:

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What people do not realize is that these debates will enlighten the mind with an understanding of the truth of God word, what he made clear when he first spoke. I met someone two years ago that was leaning toward the Hebrews root movement and I thank God for using me to talk to him and he in turn thank God for allowing me to be used to talk to him and he removed himself from listening to that group. We became good friends (two years) and this year I will be visiting him and his why, I live abroad though I am American.

As for encouragment, no one appears to be wanting to speak about how to grow with Yeshua and I asked that question once and I got a yes, but no one commented. They love debates. I wrote a book on "SEEKING GOD" people bought it, many would rather buy a prosperity book then a book that talks about how to walk with God. I do not make money on the books, amazon takes it all and am trying to get the the book translated in another language to give it out for free.

eternally-gratefull · Jan 23, 2020

SUNDOWNSAM said:

the law exposes sin

it does not tell you How to be morally Good, it tells you how impossible it is to be morally good

that was never its purpose

eternally-gratefull · Jan 23, 2020

Blik said:

When you sum up what the torah tells us

you find Christ

Otherwise, you find phariseeism, who thought they too followed the law because they never understood it and rejected christ

eternally-gratefull · Jan 23, 2020

Whispered said:

I see no difference between the evil of a murdering terrorist, to that of a wicked premeditated Trolling of a Christian community. Because both behaviors are spurred on by the enemy of God. It is zeal and passion to serve his purpose that makes the difference as pertains to escalation of animus, contempt, hatred and murderous rage.
Some such people seek to hurt peoples feelings using wicked disrespectful words. Sarcasm, demeaning name calling, etc... They intend their words to be a weapon against the emotions of the one's they target.
While the evil wicked murderous rage that picks up an actual weapon, be it a machete, a semi-automatic weapon, or they get behind the wheel of a van, or put together an explosive device, intend to hurt people for feeling a love for the Lord and joining together in worship. And as a remedy, such terrorists think if they slaughter as many as able, they'll maybe scare people out of holding faith for the consequences evil causes them to pay.
Oh, how wrong they are.
Both the murderous terrorist and the calculating community trolls. How so very wrong they are.
In this life and as they'll learn, for all eternity.
Unless or until they are able to sit aside their self-loathing first, which is what compels them to hate those who are in peace, and find the light.

God willing.

James says if we keep all of the law (every jot and tittle) yet stumble in one point, we are guilty

hence the law has done its job, confirmed that all have sinned and fall short of Gods standard

eternally-gratefull · Jan 23, 2020

SUNDOWNSAM said:

Today, as I was reading Galatians 3, I stayed on the first 5 verse and if you read it carefully, the Apostle Paul said to them... O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

He was not stating that the laws were done away with, he was correcting because they were making the law part of righteousness.

Question to all you who say the law could not be kept... If man could not keep the law of God, why did God tell them to keep his laws? Another thing, if he knew man could not keep them he needs to explain why he allowed stoning for those who broke the law knowing that they could not keep them. See, keeping the law of God has to do with obedience to God and nothing to do with making man God's righteousness, but a man who is obedient to the law is walking in a righteous walk and we can see this with Zacharias and his wife Elizabeth. Walking in a righteous walk does not make one God's righteousness, it is just the evidence that you are made God's righteousness in Yeshua.

You will never find righteous walking through the law

again, Paul said in Gal 3, that was not its purpose

eternally-gratefull · Jan 23, 2020

SUNDOWNSAM said:

The two commands

THESE two are how you find righteous living, and hence by practice are obedient children

its not the law that teaches, it’s God through Jesus showing us overflowing unending love so we can in turn love others, hence growing in christ

that can not happen via the law

eternally-gratefull · Jan 23, 2020

SUNDOWNSAM said:

Why do you people love these sins

did you not know if you know to do right and do not do it, your in sin?

You can never commit the act of adultry yet still sin, the law does not tell you that because the law does not define every possible act of adultry

why? It did not have to, it was never its purpose

its purpose was to expose you as a sinner (moral) and show you Gods response and answer to our condemnation or curse which is applied to all who do not obey it (everyone) through the law of sacrifice.

eternally-gratefull · Jan 23, 2020

Whispered said:

The dispensational aspect of this chart is in error

SUNDOWNSAM · Jan 23, 2020

eternally-gratefull said:

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Where did I say that one finds a righteous walk through the law? What I said, keeping the law of God has to do with obedience to God and nothing to do with making man God's righteousness, a man who is obedient to the law is walking in a righteous walk and we can see this with Zacharias and his wife Elizabeth. Walking in a righteous walk does not make one God's righteousness, it is just the evidence that you are made God's righteousness in Yeshua.

Read Genesis 26;5, Abraham who was justified by faith kept the laws, commandments, etc of God, he was obedient but he was not justified by the law neither made God's righteousness by the law.

Read correctly before responding and I state this respectfully.

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