"TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Feb 1, 2014
733
33
0
#1
"TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

I'm planning on keeping a running list of inconsistencies that "Torah Observers", Hebrew Roots observers, and Messianic Jew organizations/individuals hold on this thread.

I am particularly irritated concerning this topic recently because I discovered that there is a "Torah Observer" group within 20 miles that is claiming that the rest of Christianity is following tradition rather than "truth". Like most of this movement, they consciously make the claim that the rest of Christianity is in error.

And, there are some on this website that do the same thing in more subtle ways. One individual claims that the church has drifted into massive error, and that denominationalism is the proof of that. These claims come right out of the cult playbook.

So, it isn't a matter that these individuals are victims. They consciously slander the rest of Christianity in order to make the claim that their false doctrines are the true Christianity.

I'll be adding to it as time goes on.

The reason that I place "Torah Observers" in quotation marks is because no one CAN observe Torah now, and if they claim that they are observing it, they are either lying or deceived.-

Read the following sections of Scripture: Acts 15, II Corinthians 3, Ephesians 2:13-15, Romans 7:1-6, Galatians 3-4, Hebrews 7-8. These verses clearly state that the Mosaic Covenant and Law is not in effect.

The Mosaic Covenant was specific to a particular group of people (Israel), in a particular land (Palestine), for a particular time period (Moses to Christ according to Galatians 3), and under an autonomous or semi-autonomous government. Claiming it is still applicable as a whole is nonsense.

Let me be clear, though. The Mosaic Covenant contained enduring moral and spiritual principles. I don't contest that whatsoever. These are principles that a born-again believer knows don't reflect love for God and fellow man, and are immoral.

There is a big difference between acknowledging this and claiming that the Mosaic Covenant/Law is in effect, though.

I have Messianic Jewish friends who don't make the claims I've mentioned above. It's only those who are slandering Christianity that I have issues with.
 
Feb 1, 2014
733
33
0
#2
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Deuteronomy 16:16 16“Three times a year all your males shall appear before the Lord your God at the place that he will choose: at the Feast of Unleavened Bread, at the Feast of Weeks, and at the Feast of Booths. They shall not appear before the Lord empty-handed. 17Every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the Lord your God that he has given you.

Here's an example of the inconsistency of "Torah Observers". The place that God chose was Jerusalem. And, virtually NO Torah Observers go to Jerusalem for the festivals 3 times a year.

I guess if you're a woman, you may claim to observe Torah and not attend the festivals, but a man doesn't have that option.

I know someone who does, because he lives in Jerusalem. His family has a Sukkoth on their patio. But, he doesn't claim he's observing the Torah.

Now, some "Torah observers" claim that their church leadership has the authority to define this place...wrong. God chose Jerusalem and there is no other place to observe it. Therefore, their claim to observe this commandment is bogus. They can't modify this commandment in any way, or they are not keeping Torah.

A common accusation is that the Roman Catholic "modified" God's law, particularly the Sabbath. So, if a "Torah observer" wants to claim that his church can modify God's law, how different is that than what the Roman Catholic church allegedly did?

In reality, the Roman Catholic church didn't modify the Sabbath anyways. They weren't even around when the day of worship migrated away from the Sabbath. Neither was Constantine. It happened about AD140 and was due to increasing persecution from Jews that began after the Fall of Jerusalem in AD70.

Judaizer cults have accepted a false view of history that fits their theology, basically claiming that Sabbath observance discontinued due to Constantine or the Roman Catholic church. Samuele Bacchiocchi, a Seventh Day Adventist, researched the Sabbath issue and admitted, as a hostile witness, that this view is incorrect...even though it put him in disfavor with the Seventh Day Adventist authorities.

And, honest SDA pastors will tell you that this is true, even though dishonest ones and their laity, which may be uninformed or dishonest, often claims that it is not true.
 
K

kisharena80

Guest
#3
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

The Inner is not the Outer
It should be evident that Jesus’ midrash regarding these commandments is intended to
move the focus away from an outward appearance of righteousness (as was affected by
certain Jewish leaders of Jesus’ day) toward the inward motivation of the heart. In this
sense is our righteousness to exceed the scrupulous forms of observance as practiced by
the scribes and Pharisees. Jesus is putting the Torah into the inward parts and writing it
upon the heart.
Indeed, Jesus had some fierce words for those Jews who hold to the “traditions of the
elders” but who “make void the word of God” for the sake of Jewish traditions:
Then Pharisees (perushim) and scribes (soferim) came to Jesus from Jerusalem
and said, "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not
wash their hands when they eat." He answered them, "And why do you break the
commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded,
'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Whoever reviles father or mother must
surely die.' But you say, 'If anyone tells his father or his mother, What you would
have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.' So for the
sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well
did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: "'This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines
the commandments of men.' (Matt 15:1-9)
 
Feb 1, 2014
733
33
0
#4
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Here's a big inconsistency.

"Torah Observers" don't offer animal sacrifices. And, there's no Levitical priesthood to offer them. Nor is there any Levitical priesthood to do any of the things the priesthood was assigned to do. Nor is there any Temple to perform those required actions of the Mosaic Covenant.

Brilliant. If you admit that, you should be able to see that the Mosaic Covenant is NOT in effect. After AD70, when the Temple was destroyed and all of the records of the Levitical priesthood were destroyed, there was no possibility of observing Torah.

Instead, Judaizer groups create a patchwork quilt of commandments which they claim are still required. They don't observe Torah; they observe their cafeteria plan, pick and choose version of it, and they claim that it is required for everyone else.

And, to be totally honest, I think SOME of those who claim to be "Torah Observers" are saved but doctrinally confused. I think many aren't saved at all. And, I give their leadership less chance of being saved.

Why do I say that? Galatians says it. Paul reached out to the laity to help them see that they were following false teachers. But, the false teachers themselves..he didn't pursue reconciliation with them. He knew that they were not regenerate.

After the New Covenant came into effect, through justification by grace through faith alone, many Jews didn't accept Jesus and justification by grace through faith alone. Why? Because they were spiritually blinded and not regenerate. But, they tried to act like they were believers in order to disrupt the Gentiles in their faith walk. This is a reality that was evidenced in Galatia, Phillipi, and Colossae. They never made the transition from the Mosaic Covenant to the New Covenant.

I believe that many "Torah Observers" haven't made that leap, either. They aren't operating on the spiritual level, but are still on the carnal level. There are religious, unregenerate people, too, and a works oriented approach like most "Torah Observers" are involved with appeals to the carnal mind.

It's no accident that Paul spoke about walking by the Spirit in Galatians 5:16ff. Those who are law-driven are still walking in the flesh. If your faith is about meat and days, then there's a good possibility you're operating on the fleshly level.

I can anticipate the response to this one..that's pretty judgmental of you. Well, from what I've seen of "Torah observers", they are all about judging. I mentioned the group that is teaching that non-observers are following the "traditions of men" while they are following "the truth". So, I have no issue with making this assessment, especially when it dovetails into the Galatians message. Paul didn't tolerate those people and their activities, so I am on pretty good ground.

The claim is often made that those who are "Torah Observers" are spiritually mature. What does Galatians say? Galatians 3-4 tells a different story. The analogy of the guardian and the child is used..with the guardian being the Mosaic Covenant and the child being the Israelite/Jew. When the child became older, he would inherit the estate and would no longer be under the control of the guardian. So, what does that say about those who are under the Mosaic Covenant? At best, it says they were immature...many of them are actually "children of the flesh" as Galatians 4 says...read the allegory concerning Sarai and Hagar.

While claiming to be mature, they are like bottle-sucking, diaper-wearing adults. And, their activity is not harmless..it is attracting a lot of unwary people into their fold.

Some even teach against the full deity of Christ, the Trinity doctrine, and the inspiration of Scripture, particularly Paul's writings. They also tend to accept extra-biblical sources of inspiration from Jewish writers.

There are a handful of solid believers involved with the Messianic Jewish crowd, who aren't accusers. I have no issue with them. They think the shadows and types are valuable to observe for learning purposes...and like to focus on the cultural background of Scripture. This is great.

However, there are a lot of wolves in this movement too...heretical ones.
 
K

kisharena80

Guest
#5
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Yep if they choose to hold on to the yoke that will keep them bound that's their choice to bust hell wide open.
 
Feb 1, 2014
733
33
0
#6
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

The Inner is not the Outer
It should be evident that Jesus’ midrash regarding these commandments is intended to
move the focus away from an outward appearance of righteousness (as was affected by
certain Jewish leaders of Jesus’ day) toward the inward motivation of the heart. In this
sense is our righteousness to exceed the scrupulous forms of observance as practiced by
the scribes and Pharisees. Jesus is putting the Torah into the inward parts and writing it
upon the heart.
Indeed, Jesus had some fierce words for those Jews who hold to the “traditions of the
elders” but who “make void the word of God” for the sake of Jewish traditions:
Then Pharisees (perushim) and scribes (soferim) came to Jesus from Jerusalem
and said, "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not
wash their hands when they eat." He answered them, "And why do you break the
commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded,
'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Whoever reviles father or mother must
surely die.' But you say, 'If anyone tells his father or his mother, What you would
have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.' So for the
sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well
did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: "'This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines
the commandments of men.' (Matt 15:1-9)
Yes, but this is a separate issue. The "traditions of the elders" aren't something that held any authority.

Prior to the New Covenant made in Christ's blood, the Mosaic Covenant had authority. It has no authority now. See the verses I listed in the initial post.

My simple question would be, do you think those who don't observe the Saturday Sabbath, festivals and clean meat laws are in sin?

Or, do you think those observances were shadows and types that pointed to spiritual realities?

As an ex-Sabbath, festival, clean meat law observer, I am convicted of the second position..they were shadows and types pointing toward spiritual realities.

The Sabbath pointed to Christ as our spiritual rest. The festivals pointed to aspects of Christ's redeeming work. The clean meat laws pointed to the spiritual reality of avoiding spiritual uncleanness or sin.

Maybe you would hold the same view...I can't tell for sure given your wording.

This reminds me of another inconsistency...the claim that clean meat laws must be observed, but not all the other unclean laws. For instance, despite what they claim, it defiled a person to touch a monstrous woman, and this was NOT restricted to the priesthood or sexual touching.

But, how many Torah observers avoid contact with their wives or daughters for the prescribed period? Do they require the menstruating women in their fellowships to identify themselves?

No, usually not. Instead, they try to reason around these commandments by claiming that they only applied to the priest and not the general Israelite, or they try to claim it was speaking of sexual intercourse.

Or, do they destroy all cooking utensils that touched an unclean animal, as is required in the same sections that teach about unclean meats? Do they buy new stoves that have never been used to cook any unclean animal? Do they eat at any restaurants that also cook unclean meat? No, rarely do they do this.

But, all of this would be consistent with observing the Torah. And, this isn't a matter of man's tradition. It can be reasonably inferred from the Scriptures.

So can the commandment for all men to go to Jerusalem 3 times a year for the festivals. And, practicality is not a consideration with regards to Torah.

The reason that so many Torah observers claim that Torah is easy to observe is because they don't really observe it. They observe their pick and choose, cafeteria plan version of it.

Acts 15 and Galatians 5 called it a "yoke of bondage" and the metaphor of slavery is also used in regards to observing it. Basically, they are calling the apostles liars by claiming Torah is easy to observe.

Usually what they try to do is claim that the Scriptures I referenced are talking about the "Oral Law of Moses" or "traditions of the elders". This isn't true as the phrase "law of Moses" is used in both Acts 15 and by Paul in I Corinthians to refer to the written law..specifically Deuteronomy, where he said that an ox should not be muzzled when treading out grain, and he referred to the "law of Moses". It comes from Deuteronomy, therefore it's not any part of any written tradition, despite claims I've heard from "Torah Observers" here.

Compare Deuteronomy 25:4 with I Corinthians 9:9 with Acts 15:5.

This is just one of the tactics "Torah Observer" teachers attempt to use to claim that Torah must be observed..and their focus is particularly on meats and days.

I also find it amusing that some of my friends claim to be Torah Observers, but they don't follow what the Torah says with regards to cleaning their house completely of all leaven, AND living in a Sukkoth or booth for the Feast of Tabernacles. Instead, many of them don't clean their house of all leaven, and they live in nice comfortable hotel rooms instead of a booth or tabernacle during the festival. Some build SYMBOLIC booths but they don't occupy them like the Mosaic Covenant required.

Some might use their climate as an excuse..that it is cold in September or October...firstly, the Law requires that they go to Jerusalem, and if they don't, they are in violation of the commandment. Second, you're the one who is claiming that keeping the Mosaic Covenant isn't a burden, so build your Sukkoth and occupy it for 7 days. Hotel rooms are not a substitute. You have no authorization to change God's laws whatsoever, and if the Mosaic Covenant is in effect, you aren't allowed to modify it. And, make sure you bring your money to buy your sin offering animals, and good luck finding the Temple because it's not there anymore, and good luck finding a real Levitical priest to offer it, because the geneology records were destroyed in AD70 and no one can prove their Levitical priesthood status.

So, quit making excuses, "Torah Observers".
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,022
0
#7
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Here's a big inconsistency.

"Torah Observers" don't offer animal sacrifices. And, there's no Levitical priesthood to offer them. Nor is there any Levitical priesthood to do any of the things the priesthood was assigned to do. Nor is there any Temple to perform those required actions of the Mosaic Covenant.

Brilliant. If you admit that, you should be able to see that the Mosaic Covenant is NOT in effect. After AD70, when the Temple was destroyed and all of the records of the Levitical priesthood were destroyed, there was no possibility of observing Torah.

Instead, Judaizer groups create a patchwork quilt of commandments which they claim are still required. They don't observe Torah; they observe their cafeteria plan, pick and choose version of it, and they claim that it is required for everyone else.

And, to be totally honest, I think SOME of those who claim to be "Torah Observers" are saved but doctrinally confused. I think many aren't saved at all. And, I give their leadership less chance of being saved.

Why do I say that? Galatians says it. Paul reached out to the laity to help them see that they were following false teachers. But, the false teachers themselves..he didn't pursue reconciliation with them. He knew that they were not regenerate.

After the New Covenant came into effect, through justification by grace through faith alone, many Jews didn't accept Jesus and justification by grace through faith alone. Why? Because they were spiritually blinded and not regenerate. But, they tried to act like they were believers in order to disrupt the Gentiles in their faith walk. This is a reality that was evidenced in Galatia, Phillipi, and Colossae. They never made the transition from the Mosaic Covenant to the New Covenant.

I believe that many "Torah Observers" haven't made that leap, either. They aren't operating on the spiritual level, but are still on the carnal level. There are religious, unregenerate people, too, and a works oriented approach like most "Torah Observers" are involved with appeals to the carnal mind.

It's no accident that Paul spoke about walking by the Spirit in Galatians 5:16ff. Those who are law-driven are still walking in the flesh. If your faith is about meat and days, then there's a good possibility you're operating on the fleshly level.

I can anticipate the response to this one..that's pretty judgmental of you. Well, from what I've seen of "Torah observers", they are all about judging. I mentioned the group that is teaching that non-observers are following the "traditions of men" while they are following "the truth". So, I have no issue with making this assessment, especially when it dovetails into the Galatians message. Paul didn't tolerate those people and their activities, so I am on pretty good ground.

The claim is often made that those who are "Torah Observers" are spiritually mature. What does Galatians say? Galatians 3-4 tells a different story. The analogy of the guardian and the child is used..with the guardian being the Mosaic Covenant and the child being the Israelite/Jew. When the child became older, he would inherit the estate and would no longer be under the control of the guardian. So, what does that say about those who are under the Mosaic Covenant? At best, it says they were immature...many of them are actually "children of the flesh" as Galatians 4 says...read the allegory concerning Sarai and Hagar.

While claiming to be mature, they are like bottle-sucking, diaper-wearing adults. And, their activity is not harmless..it is attracting a lot of unwary people into their fold.

Some even teach against the full deity of Christ, the Trinity doctrine, and the inspiration of Scripture, particularly Paul's writings. They also tend to accept extra-biblical sources of inspiration from Jewish writers.

There are a handful of solid believers involved with the Messianic Jewish crowd, who aren't accusers. I have no issue with them. They think the shadows and types are valuable to observe for learning purposes...and like to focus on the cultural background of Scripture. This is great.

However, there are a lot of wolves in this movement too...heretical ones.
Well said Sparkman

I liked one of your old posts that shows some of their "tactics" that they use on Christians to get them "out of Babylon".

One of them is saying "Why do you not believe the word of God and why are you against the word of God when you have been shown it?

What that really is - is "code" for - you don't believe what I have told you in my religion and that means you are against the word of God. It's just the flesh acting up and it is called " spiritual witchcraft".

As Paul says to the believers who can be duped in with this tactic:

Galatians 3:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

[SUP]2 [/SUP] This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

[SUP]3 [/SUP] Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
 
K

kisharena80

Guest
#8
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

What sums it up is this because I like to get to the heart of the matter Acts 10:11-16 AMPC
And he saw the sky opened and something like a great sheet lowered by the four corners, descending to the earth. [12] It contained all kinds of quadrupeds and wild beasts and creeping things of the earth and birds of the air. [13] And there came a voice to him, saying, Rise up, Peter, kill and eat. [14] But Peter said, No, by no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common and unhallowed or ceremonially unclean. [15] And the voice came to him again a second time, What God has cleansed and pronounced clean, do not you defile and profane by regarding and calling common and unhallowed or unclean. [16] This occurred three times; then immediately the sheet was taken up to heaven.

Obedience inwardly is better than sacrifice outwardly.
 
Apr 23, 2017
1,064
36
0
#9
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

but do u think its wrong to keepp the diatary laws certainly not if you dont require it of others????????
 

Yonah

Senior Member
Oct 31, 2014
1,074
102
48
#10
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Part of the problem here is that some have been hurt or have seen others hurt in no small way by false teachers and organizations that have a purpose not in line with the Kingdom of light, I myself have suffered bitter insults on this site by those claiming to have truth, and they are going to "protect" everyone from them.
However the truth in some cases is not this at all, but rather they are striking out with their pain and bitterness, they may have experienced while either involved with one of these groups or knew someone who was/is. Unforgiven pain and hurt breeds bitterness, and this bitterness is evident in the words spoken , or written, personal attack on others who they feel are in the category of those whom the claim to discredit, when in fact the whole time they themselves are in bondage to their own bitterness to the point where they have thrown out all they learned , Rather then prayerfully seeking the guidance and discernment to determine truth from error.
anyone who claims to be a Christian yet exhibits hatred in any form for others whos beliefs are different from their own have deceived themselves into thinking they stand in some position to expose falsehood, not understanding the truth themselves.
please I\excuse my candor, but it is what it is, if the shoe fits then then applies to you if not simnply ignore it knowing it applies to others only.
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
7,619
430
83
#11
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

maybe we could MOVE-ON to 'snake-handlers' who of course claim to be 'christians'...
 
Feb 1, 2014
733
33
0
#12
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Part of the problem here is that some have been hurt or have seen others hurt in no small way by false teachers and organizations that have a purpose not in line with the Kingdom of light, I myself have suffered bitter insults on this site by those claiming to have truth, and they are going to "protect" everyone from them.
However the truth in some cases is not this at all, but rather they are striking out with their pain and bitterness, they may have experienced while either involved with one of these groups or knew someone who was/is. Unforgiven pain and hurt breeds bitterness, and this bitterness is evident in the words spoken , or written, personal attack on others who they feel are in the category of those whom the claim to discredit, when in fact the whole time they themselves are in bondage to their own bitterness to the point where they have thrown out all they learned , Rather then prayerfully seeking the guidance and discernment to determine truth from error.
anyone who claims to be a Christian yet exhibits hatred in any form for others whos beliefs are different from their own have deceived themselves into thinking they stand in some position to expose falsehood, not understanding the truth themselves.
please I\excuse my candor, but it is what it is, if the shoe fits then then applies to you if not simnply ignore it knowing it applies to others only.
Judaizing comes under anathema...Galatians 1 is clear on that. Anyone who claims the Mosaic Covenant is still in effect is in severe doctrinal error.

Regarding my experience with Armstrongism, until I came to this chat room four years ago, I didn't even think about it much. Then, I came into contact with Hebrew Roots/Messianic Jew/"Torah Observers" nuts who were very open about their position that others are in sin for non-observance, particularly of days and meat laws.

I have no doubt that many of them believe the Protestant church is in grave error concerning this issue. They make remarks such as claiming that there are 60,000 different denominations and that is proof that Christianity has strayed off the path. Underneath these sorts of claims is the mentality of someone who thinks he has the spiritual upper hand and is qualified to judge orthodox Christianity.

One such individual made the claim that Reformed theology is Satanic so I have no issue with addressing his Judaizing as heretical and under anathema. He can preach all he wants about tolerance but his remarks show his issues. It is hilarious how it becomes persecution and hatred when someone else addresses his issues, but it is not when he calls an entire sector of Christianity Satanic.

At any rate, notice that I have said the Mosaic Covenant cannot be observed because there is no Levitical priesthood and no Temple. Addtionally, Galatians 3-4 gives the time period that it was in effect. Those who claim to be observing it, and judging others of being in sin for non-observance, are fooling themselves by thinking they are observing it. And, this claim is part and parcel of being a Judaizer. I made the same claim myself...that others were in sin due to their non-observance.

I have no issue with those who simply want to observe some facsimile of festivals or Sabbath as valuable shadows and types but they should not fool themselves into thinking they are observing the Mosaic Covenant because it cannot be observed now.
 
Feb 1, 2014
733
33
0
#13
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

but do u think its wrong to keepp the diatary laws certainly not if you dont require it of others????????
I don't think it's an issue whatsoever if someone wants to observe Sabbath, festivals, or dietary rules because of personal preference. It's when others claim that non observers are in sin that it is an issue.

These individuals often make remarks that indicate that the rest of Christianity is following man's tradition and they are following the truth.

I don't know if you're aware of it, but it is common for Sabbathkeepers to claim that the Mark of the Beast is Sabbathbreaking, or it will be Sabbathbreaking in the end times.

Everytime the Pope mentions anything about Sunday observance laws, SDAs will scramble around like Chicken Little claiming the sky is falling. That is what they are looking for. And many of them think that non-Sabbatarians are going to hunt them down during the Great Tribulation. It is comical actually.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,022
0
#14
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

These individuals often make remarks that indicate that the rest of Christianity is following man's tradition and they are following the truth.

I don't know if you're aware of it, but it is common for Sabbathkeepers to claim that the Mark of the Beast is Sabbathbreaking, or it will be Sabbathbreaking in the end times.

.
Is this one here?

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/149862-sabbath-44.html#post3144877

In the signature at the bottom - there is a link to here it talks about this beast and the sunday Sabbath thing.

https://www.beastsmark.com/deception

Here is a quote from it.

ARE YOU FOLLOWING GOD?

Who should we obey, God or man? The Roman Catholic Church has changed God's 7th Day Sabbath (Saturday) commandment to Sunday worship. Today, nearly all Christian Church's of the world are following the Roman Catholic Church's lead. There is not one scripture from the Word of God from Genesis to Revelations that supports this change of God's Law.

The 7th Day Sabbath is the 4th commandment of God's Law (Ex 20:8-11).

The Word of God tells us that if we break one commandment we are guilty of breaking all of God's Law. Sin is transgression or breaking of God's Law and the wages of sin is death. (Rom 6:23; James 2:10-11).

 
Feb 1, 2014
733
33
0
#15
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Part of the problem here is that some have been hurt or have seen others hurt in no small way by false teachers and organizations that have a purpose not in line with the Kingdom of light, I myself have suffered bitter insults on this site by those claiming to have truth, and they are going to "protect" everyone from them.
However the truth in some cases is not this at all, but rather they are striking out with their pain and bitterness, they may have experienced while either involved with one of these groups or knew someone who was/is. Unforgiven pain and hurt breeds bitterness, and this bitterness is evident in the words spoken , or written, personal attack on others who they feel are in the category of those whom the claim to discredit, when in fact the whole time they themselves are in bondage to their own bitterness to the point where they have thrown out all they learned , Rather then prayerfully seeking the guidance and discernment to determine truth from error.
anyone who claims to be a Christian yet exhibits hatred in any form for others whos beliefs are different from their own have deceived themselves into thinking they stand in some position to expose falsehood, not understanding the truth themselves.
please I\excuse my candor, but it is what it is, if the shoe fits then then applies to you if not simnply ignore it knowing it applies to others only.
By the way, I'm commonly accused of having bitterness due to my past association with Judaizers. That's an excellent way to attempt to discredit what I have to say. Like I said, I rarely even thought about my Armstrongite past until I came here and saw Judaizers trying to intimidate non-observers.

It is very obvious that many of them think they have the upper hand theologically and that the rest of Christianity is ignorant. The reality is this is not so. After I left Armstrongism, I discovered how badly Sabbathkeepers and "Torah Observers" distort the Bible and church history. While thinking they are the wise ones, and that the rest of mankind is deceived, they are actually very ignorant and believing propaganda that has been dished out to them by their authority figures.

For instance, in the chatroom, they will post long strings of Scripture supporting the Sabbath, all the time ignoring CONTEXT. Those verses relate to the context of the Mosaic Covenant. One of the elements of context is covenant. We aren't under the Mosaic Covenant and to give people that impression is blatant misrepresentation. I could just as easily quote Scriptures about physical circumcision, and claim it still applies. In fact, Jewish believers in the first century continued to observe it (Acts 21).

Some Judaizers continue to claim it still applies, too, by the way. I've encountered that here.
 
Feb 1, 2014
733
33
0
#16
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Is this one here?

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/149862-sabbath-44.html#post3144877

In the signature at the bottom - there is a link to here it talks about this beast and the sunday Sabbath thing.

https://www.beastsmark.com/deception

Here is a quote from it.

ARE YOU FOLLOWING GOD?

Who should we obey, God or man? The Roman Catholic Church has changed God's 7th Day Sabbath (Saturday) commandment to Sunday worship. Today, nearly all Christian Church's of the world are following the Roman Catholic Church's lead. There is not one scripture from the Word of God from Genesis to Revelations that supports this change of God's Law.

The 7th Day Sabbath is the 4th commandment of God's Law (Ex 20:8-11).

The Word of God tells us that if we break one commandment we are guilty of breaking all of God's Law. Sin is transgression or breaking of God's Law and the wages of sin is death. (Rom 6:23; James 2:10-11).

Yeah, typical propaganda.

And, like I said, the Judaizing organization near me is advertising "Truth Over Tradition" in order to lure away Christians. They boldly proclaim their orthodoxy while accusing the rest of Christianity of being in error.

Some of them don't even believe in the full deity of Jesus Christ, and the Trinity doctrine. How they can claim doctrinal superiority while having such error is dumbfounding.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,022
0
#17
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Yeah, typical propaganda.

And, like I said, the Judaizing organization near me is advertising "Truth Over Tradition" in order to lure away Christians. They boldly proclaim their orthodoxy while accusing the rest of Christianity of being in error.

Some of them don't even believe in the full deity of Jesus Christ, and the Trinity doctrine. How they can claim doctrinal superiority while having such error is dumbfounding.
I understand. These types sometimes will not be forth-right and answer a direct question either. I asked this new poster in the "Sabbath" thread - this same thing 5 times now and he skirts the answer like it was a nuclear bomb.

Perhaps they have been trained to not answer such direct questions that would expose what they really believe?

I finally had to show him what a yes or no answer looked like.




You can say "Yes - if you do not observe the Sabbath from Friday night until Saturday as outlined in the law - then you are sinning and disobeying God - or you could say - No, you re not disobeying God. "

You could say "Yes- I believe that God throws His children into hell - or no, I don't believe God throws His children into hell."

See how easy it is to answer directly? Give it a shot. Speak honestly and forthright and we can see what you are really saying. I like to take religions for test runs to see what is really in them. Thank you
 
Feb 1, 2014
733
33
0
#18
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Is this one here?

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/149862-sabbath-44.html#post3144877

In the signature at the bottom - there is a link to here it talks about this beast and the sunday Sabbath thing.

https://www.beastsmark.com/deception

Here is a quote from it.

ARE YOU FOLLOWING GOD?

Who should we obey, God or man? The Roman Catholic Church has changed God's 7th Day Sabbath (Saturday) commandment to Sunday worship. Today, nearly all Christian Church's of the world are following the Roman Catholic Church's lead. There is not one scripture from the Word of God from Genesis to Revelations that supports this change of God's Law.

The 7th Day Sabbath is the 4th commandment of God's Law (Ex 20:8-11).

The Word of God tells us that if we break one commandment we are guilty of breaking all of God's Law. Sin is transgression or breaking of God's Law and the wages of sin is death. (Rom 6:23; James 2:10-11).

By the way, they are claiming that the Roman Catholic Church did things before it was even in existence. They may be able to come up with remarks by some Roman Catholic official making such claims, but the Roman Catholic Church was nothing but a bishopric until at least 590 AD and some would place it at 1050 AD.

And, Samuele Bacchiocchi, a SDA historian, admits that the vast majority of Christians weren't observing Sabbath by AD140.

I was fed this line as an Armstrongite..that Constantine and the Roman Catholic Church had a primary role in eliminating Sabbathkeeping. History simply doesn't prove that, but I hear individuals making the same propagandistic remarks.

Constantine did mandate a Sunday rest day prior to the Council of Nicea but he didn't stop anyone from observing the Sabbath. There was an anathema placed on Judaizers at the Council of Laodicea in AD363 but my guess is that was relating to a group of troublemakers, much like the Judaizers today, who were claiming that observing Torah was a requirement, condition, or necessary fruit of salvation.

By the way, this issue discredits Ellen G. White, as she saw a vision relating to the Pope changing the Sabbath. SDA pastors have told me that they know that Sabbath observance was discontinued much earlier than the Roman Catholic church's existence (it was only a bishopric and had no such power during the time frame that is often attributed to discontinuation of the Sabbath). So, by acknowledging this, they are in essence acknowledging she was a false prophetess.

I've been accused of being an undercover Jesuit by some that don't like my remarks on this.
 
Feb 1, 2014
733
33
0
#19
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

By the way, they are claiming that the Roman Catholic Church did things before it was even in existence. They may be able to come up with remarks by some Roman Catholic official making such claims, but the Roman Catholic Church was nothing but a bishopric until at least 590 AD and some would place it at 1050 AD.

And, Samuele Bacchiocchi, a SDA historian, admits that the vast majority of Christians weren't observing Sabbath by AD140.

I was fed this line as an Armstrongite..that Constantine and the Roman Catholic Church had a primary role in eliminating Sabbathkeeping. History simply doesn't prove that, but I hear individuals making the same propagandistic remarks.

Constantine did mandate a Sunday rest day prior to the Council of Nicea but he didn't stop anyone from observing the Sabbath. There was an anathema placed on Judaizers at the Council of Laodicea in AD363 but my guess is that was relating to a group of troublemakers, much like the Judaizers today, who were claiming that observing Torah was a requirement, condition, or necessary fruit of salvation.

By the way, this issue discredits Ellen G. White, as she saw a vision relating to the Pope changing the Sabbath. SDA pastors have told me that they know that Sabbath observance was discontinued much earlier than the Roman Catholic church's existence (it was only a bishopric and had no such power during the time frame that is often attributed to discontinuation of the Sabbath). So, by acknowledging this, they are in essence acknowledging she was a false prophetess.

I've been accused of being an undercover Jesuit by some that don't like my remarks on this.
I should add, though, that as far as SDAs go, their position is more reasonable than Torah observers. I cannot see how anyone can claim to observe Torah, just from the perspective that the Mosaic Covenant is interwoven with the Temple and Levitical Priesthood, and a particular time and place context. It is intellectual suicide to claim that one is observing Torah.

At least SDAs know that much.
 
Dec 3, 2016
1,674
24
0
#20
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Well, I have no hebrew roots... and I have no gentile roots... I'm a new creation in Christ Jesus old things have passed away BEHOLD (that means look!) all things are new and are of God! (2 Corinthians 5:17)


It is intellectual suicide...
What's that?... blowing one's intelligence out of their head but their not dead?
 
Last edited: