True Baptism

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birdie

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2014
282
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#21
The true baptism is from the word itself. Washing of water by the word, which is the true baptism.
Ephesians 4:5 tells us that their is one baptism. And 1Corinthians 12:13 says that by one Spirit we are baptized
into one body. So the one baptism is from the Spirit, which is the true baptism. This is what God revealed to me
from the word, which before I hadn't read and studied it. I thought that my salvation was in water baptism.
My whole point is that no one should believe that they need to be water baptized in order to receive salvation. If they
did then it would be through works, which salvation is not by works but by faith in believing.
Thanks MarkHasFaith for your excellent defense and statement of what true baptism is. The word baptize means 'to wash'. A person is washed of their sins by Jesus as they believe on him unto salvation. When the Bible says: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" it does not mean someone that believes and is dunked in physical water will be saved. Rather, it means someone who believes and has their sins washed away will be saved. Just as you have indicated MarkHasFaith.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
4,998
366
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#22
Jesus said he would give you the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Now tell Jesus he is a lie if you dare.
chip on shoulder.jpg

Lighten up, Francis.... no need to get all snarky.. this is supposed to be a discussion.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
4,998
366
83
#23
Thanks MarkHasFaith for your excellent defense and statement of what true baptism is. The word baptize means 'to wash'. A person is washed of their sins by Jesus as they believe on him unto salvation. When the Bible says: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" it does not mean someone that believes and is dunked in physical water will be saved. Rather, it means someone who believes and has their sins washed away will be saved. Just as you have indicated MarkHasFaith.
And you seem to have missed the point that nearly all the scriptural references to conversion include baptism. In water.

Scripture is plain... no amount of twisting, dancing, parsing, or "the Spirit LED me to understand it THIS way" will change what scripture says.

I have never seen people so intent on trying to "get out" of something that we are told to do.

Baptism is either necessary, or every story in the New Testament about baptism occurring as close to the time of conversion are simply lies and misrepresentation. Scripture does not lie.
 
Aug 13, 2017
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#24
Baptism is a part of salvation according to mark 16:16 whoever believes and is baptized is saved. So belief alone is not enough and baptism alone is not enough we need both;
 

Dai3234

Senior Member
Sep 6, 2016
524
3
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#25
This confuses me because in Acts 19, doesn't Paul baptise some 12 year olds again, because they were baptized into John's baptism and needed to be baptized into Jesus baptism....

This confuses me because it is later in the book of acts. Is this for some particular reason??? Why didn't he just say, now have faith in Jesus Christ???
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
23,391
1,335
113
#26
This confuses me because in Acts 19, doesn't Paul baptise some 12 year olds again, because they were baptized into John's baptism and needed to be baptized into Jesus baptism....

This confuses me because it is later in the book of acts. Is this for some particular reason??? Why didn't he just say, now have faith in Jesus Christ???
I don't see that they were twelve years old; the text says they were disciples, but no age is mentioned. They had not yet been baptized into the name of Jesus.

19 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples

2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3
So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

“John’s baptism,” they replied.

4
Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

7 There were about twelve men in all.
 

Dai3234

Senior Member
Sep 6, 2016
524
3
0
#27
I don't see that they were twelve years old; the text says they were disciples, but no age is mentioned. They had not yet been baptized into the name of Jesus.

19 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples

2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3
So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

“John’s baptism,” they replied.

4
Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

7 There were about twelve men in all.
Yes, baptised, then laying on of hands.
It doesn't say they were baptized by the holy spirit, just in Jesus name.

It doesn't say for them to accept jesus, or believe Jesus, it says, baptized in Jesus name.

I know it looks like a Holy Ghost baptism if you assume things, but assumptions are not safe.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
23,391
1,335
113
#28
Yes, baptised, then laying on of hands.
It doesn't say they were baptized by the holy spirit, just in Jesus name.

It doesn't say for them to accept jesus, or believe Jesus, it says, baptized in Jesus name.

I know it looks like a Holy Ghost baptism if you assume things, but assumptions are not safe.
The Holy Spirit came upon them. What does that mean to you? They were already believers.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
4,998
366
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#29
reading that in context would point toward baptism in Jesus' name as being a necessary part of salvation. They believed, but had not been baptized in Jesus name... and had not received the Spirit. When they heard of the necessity of being baptized in Jesus name, and did it, then Paul laid hands on them so they would receive the miraculous gift of speaking in tongues, to prove to everyone watching that they had, indeed, received the Spirit.

No assumptions necessary.

[SUP]38 [/SUP]Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
 

Dai3234

Senior Member
Sep 6, 2016
524
3
0
#30
reading that in context would point toward baptism in Jesus' name as being a necessary part of salvation. They believed, but had not been baptized in Jesus name... and had not received the Spirit. When they heard of the necessity of being baptized in Jesus name, and did it, then Paul laid hands on them so they would receive the miraculous gift of speaking in tongues, to prove to everyone watching that they had, indeed, received the Spirit.

No assumptions necessary.
True, but then there's a conflict to me, in Acts 16:30-33. Where it does say, believe. Then baptism. But this is explained in a timeline as though Paul and the Holy Ghost, were sent to Gentiles, and people say these verses show no need for water baptism anymore?

It feels right, but maybe wrong in some context??
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
4,998
366
83
#31
True, but then there's a conflict to me, in Acts 16:30-33. Where it does say, believe. Then baptism. But this is explained in a timeline as though Paul and the Holy Ghost, were sent to Gentiles, and people say these verses show no need for water baptism anymore?

It feels right, but maybe wrong in some context??
Scripture does not spell out the "formula" for it, in every listed example. It should be assumed to be included, because it was in so many other scriptures. It cannot be required/commanded for some, but not for all.

It was taught, commanded if you will, by Jesus himself, and by Peter, who was with Jesus during his whole ministry, and Paul, who met Jesus face to face in a vision, and (apparently) by nearly all the other apostles. We have example after example of new believers being baptized in Jesus name.

This was universally understood and accepted for centuries after Jesus' death, as being a necessary part of salvation... up until Luther started teaching sola fide, and others took that to mean that believers need not do anything at all to receive the gift of salvation.... as anything they did would be a "work" :eek:, simply writing off the fact that it was commanded of us, and is not a "work" to do it, but simply obedience.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
5,612
121
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#32
Water baptism comes from an Old Testament ceremonial purifying law that was used when a new priest entered the ministry typified by the tribe of Levi. All Christians make up a kingdom of Priest. But not all follow the law as a witness to the world they have had a desire to become a priest and administer the gospel.

Exo 40:12 And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water.

Like all ceremonial laws they were used as shadows that pointed ahead to Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God. He remains the high priest of our calling. We cannot judge one another in respect to those kind of shadows. They are not moral law.

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Col 2:16
 
Sep 3, 2016
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#33
It is imperative and so important that a Christian received all three Baptisms: Salvation (Blood) - Water and Spirit 1 John 5:7-8 NASB

1. The Baptism in the Body of Christ (Born again) - 1 Corinthians 12:13 NASB
When you became save the Holy Spirit emerges you into the Body of Christ (Jesus). To Go to heaven you only need this 1st Baptism as the Thief on the Cross did. The Holy Spirit does this Baptism.

2. The Baptism of Water - Matthew 28:19 NASB

3. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit - Matthew 3:11 NASB - Mark 1:8 NASB - Luke 3:16 NASB - John 1:33 NASB - Luke 24:49 NASB - Acts 1:4-5 NASB - Acts 1:8 NASB - 1 John 5:7-8 NASB
Lord Jesus Christ does the Baptism. Jesus emerges you into the Holy Spirit.

Pray at this time to ask Jesus to Baptize and fill you with the Holy the Spirit. He will if you have done 1 and 2 Baptisms.

Again to go to heaven you just need to be saved. To walk a victorious life you need Water Baptism and Spirit Baptism.

Now that you are saved, you should ask the Lord to baptize you with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4).

While it is certainly true the Holy Spirit came into your heart and life the moment of your Salvation, still, He now wishes to endure you with power from on high. Consequently, Jesus told all of His followers immediately before His Ascension, that they should "wait for the Promise of the Father" (Acts 1:4). He was speaking of being "Baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5).

You must understand that there is a great difference in being "born of the Spirit" than being " Baptized with the Spirit." They are two different works altogether.

To be "born of the Spirit" is that which took place at your conversion, as the holy Spirit brought you to Christ and performed the work of regeneration within your heart and life. To be "Baptized with the Spirit" is in order that you may have Power with God (Acts 1:8). Every Believer should ask the lord to fill them with the Holy Spirit, and expect to receive (Luke 11:13).


 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
4,998
366
83
#34
It is imperative and so important that a Christian received all three Baptisms: Salvation (Blood) - Water and Spirit 1 John 5:7-8 NASB

1. The Baptism in the Body of Christ (Born again) - 1 Corinthians 12:13 NASB
When you became save the Holy Spirit emerges you into the Body of Christ (Jesus). To Go to heaven you only need this 1st Baptism as the Thief on the Cross did. The Holy Spirit does this Baptism.

2. The Baptism of Water - Matthew 28:19 NASB

3. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit - Matthew 3:11 NASB - Mark 1:8 NASB - Luke 3:16 NASB - John 1:33 NASB - Luke 24:49 NASB - Acts 1:4-5 NASB - Acts 1:8 NASB - 1 John 5:7-8 NASB
Lord Jesus Christ does the Baptism. Jesus emerges you into the Holy Spirit.

Pray at this time to ask Jesus to Baptize and fill you with the Holy the Spirit. He will if you have done 1 and 2 Baptisms.

Again to go to heaven you just need to be saved. To walk a victorious life you need Water Baptism and Spirit Baptism.

Now that you are saved, you should ask the Lord to baptize you with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4).

While it is certainly true the Holy Spirit came into your heart and life the moment of your Salvation, still, He now wishes to endure you with power from on high. Consequently, Jesus told all of His followers immediately before His Ascension, that they should "wait for the Promise of the Father" (Acts 1:4). He was speaking of being "Baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5).

You must understand that there is a great difference in being "born of the Spirit" than being " Baptized with the Spirit." They are two different works altogether.

To be "born of the Spirit" is that which took place at your conversion, as the holy Spirit brought you to Christ and performed the work of regeneration within your heart and life. To be "Baptized with the Spirit" is in order that you may have Power with God (Acts 1:8). Every Believer should ask the lord to fill them with the Holy Spirit, and expect to receive (Luke 11:13).


From Paul, in Ephesians...
Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, [SUP]2 [/SUP]with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, [SUP]3 [/SUP]being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [SUP]4 [/SUP]There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; [SUP]5 [/SUP]one Lord, one faith, one baptism, [SUP]6 [/SUP]one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
I believe that baptism in the Spirit happens when we are water baptized (out of obedience, as commanded) upon our acceptance of Jesus as our savior.

I do not believe scripture supports multiple baptism "occasions".
 

Dai3234

Senior Member
Sep 6, 2016
524
3
0
#35
From Paul, in Ephesians...

I believe that baptism in the Spirit happens when we are water baptized (out of obedience, as commanded) upon our acceptance of Jesus as our savior.

I do not believe scripture supports multiple baptism "occasions".
I think they're referring to the 1st baptism, as the turning to God as a baptism and work of the Holy Ghost by humble prayer for forgiveness accepting Jesus Christ. Like scripture says that the jailer heard, believed and recieved, then was water baptized.

I did the first, but the second I had to do as a self-baptism. No-preacher will give me a baptism. I will keep looking though, just in case.

But the issue threw me because Robert Breaker uses a really convincing diagram timeline argument, YouTube, saying when the gentiles were recieving the Holy Ghost without baptism, Peter remembered John's word, by Spirit and fire etc...

Will just keep looking for baptism.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
4,998
366
83
#36
I think they're referring to the 1st baptism, as the turning to God as a baptism and work of the Holy Ghost by humble prayer for forgiveness accepting Jesus Christ. Like scripture says that the jailer heard, believed and recieved, then was water baptized.

I did the first, but the second I had to do as a self-baptism. No-preacher will give me a baptism. I will keep looking though, just in case.

But the issue threw me because Robert Breaker uses a really convincing diagram timeline argument, YouTube, saying when the gentiles were recieving the Holy Ghost without baptism, Peter remembered John's word, by Spirit and fire etc...

Will just keep looking for baptism.
I believe any beliver can baptize you, you don't need a "preacher" for that...

And, when the Gentiles received the Spirit before baptism, it is my understanding that it was one of the miraculous "teaching events" that are shown us in scripture.

This was to teach the Jewish believers that Gentiles were acceptable to God... they received the miraculous gift of speaking in tongues, to SHOW that they had received the spirit.... and then Paul said.... "ok, now do you see? They have received the Spirit... Gentiles! it's evident by the miraculous gift of tongues... NOW do you agree it's ok for them to be baptized?"

This was because the Jewish believers still did not believe that Gentiles were acceptable to God.

This one-off event was to prove that they were. We don't read about this type of event anywhere else in scripture.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
62,421
1,402
113
#37
It is our belief that saves us. Whosoever believeth in Jesus shall have everlasting life.. Baptism is essential, but more as a show that you are now saved. Getting dunked in water doesn't save us. :) Our belief and faith in Jesus is what saves us..


Baptism is a part of salvation according to mark 16:16 whoever believes and is baptized is saved. So belief alone is not enough and baptism alone is not enough we need both;
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
1,857
126
63
#38
It is our belief that saves us. Whosoever believeth in Jesus shall have everlasting life.. Baptism is essential, but more as a show that you are now saved. Getting dunked in water doesn't save us. :) Our belief and faith in Jesus is what saves us..
If you are saying that baptism does not save, that makes God out to be a liar, because He says it does save in 1 Peter 3:21. Baptism puts us in Christ's death where He shed His blood (Romans 6:3). We know those in Christ will be saved, and baptism is the only way the Bible says we get into Christ.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
172
0
#39
I agree that the apostles did baptize with water but it was not commanded by Jesus. There is nothing wrong
with someone wanting to show outward dedication to Christ. In Matthew 28:19 though,
when Jesus said to go baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, he was not speaking about
water baptism. He says the word teaching them, which is what he was talking about. Them going out teaching
the word and preaching. Those who would believe, would received the Spirit. That's why it says in Ephesians 1:13
after you believed the word, you were sealed with that Spirit. That's the baptism they received and ourselves.
Just as it says in Acts 10:44 that while Peter was speaking the word, the Holy Spirit fell on them that heard.
That means they believed the word that he spoke, and in believing they received the Spirit and were baptized.
The washing of water by the word.
I agree that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the only baptism connected with Salvation.

I disagree that water baptism is not commanded. The purpose of water baptism is a witness whereby a believer identifies with Jesus in His death , burial and resurrection.

Water baptism makes the statement: Because of what Jesus did for me, I am now dead to sin, buried in Christ in baptism, and raised again in newness of life. We demonstrate that we are not ashamed to identify ourselves publicly with Jesus.

Mk 8:38
38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
KJV
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
172
0
#40
Thanks MarkHasFaith for your excellent defense and statement of what true baptism is. The word baptize means 'to wash'. A person is washed of their sins by Jesus as they believe on him unto salvation. When the Bible says: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" it does not mean someone that believes and is dunked in physical water will be saved. Rather, it means someone who believes and has their sins washed away will be saved. Just as you have indicated MarkHasFaith.
baptize means 'to wash'. Actually baptize means to immerse or dip. The cleansing is done by Jesus Blood.