True Baptism

[graceNpeace]

Regardless of what you think of my perspective, you did not answer the question. You explained what you think it is, "an outward demonstration of an internal reality" and "a firm demonstration of faith" but not the why it should be done?

If baptism is an optional act of demonstration of faith what purpose does it serve? If the outward pledge is optional why subject yourself to the violence?

Maybe you think that water baptism is optional but I don't!
However, it does not follow that because it is a command, and it is, that it justifies a position supporting baptismal regeneration.

 

[mailmandan]

Maybe you think that water baptism is optional but I don't!
However, it does not follow that because it is a command, and it is, that it justifies a position supporting baptismal regeneration.

Amen! These Gentiles in Acts 10 received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were manifesting the spiritual gift of tongues (which is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) after believing the gospel but before being water baptized (Acts 10:44-48). This observation needs to be balanced, by the fact that baptism was not considered an "optional extra" for these Gentiles. It was a command (verse 48) that they were expected to obey. However, it was not obedience to this command that saved them, but their believing in Christ (verse 43).

 

[DJ2]

Maybe you think that water baptism is optional but I don't!
However, it does not follow that because it is a command, and it is, that it justifies a position supporting baptismal regeneration.

Again, you are not answering the question. Why be baptized? Why face death, violence or rejection by the community? If salvation is not an issue why purposely cause trouble for yourself and others?

If baptism is not obligatory to salvation....
If baptism has no bearing on the grace of God....
If baptism has nothing to do with remission of sins....
If baptism is not the pledge of a good conscience toward God....

why do it?

Your bringing up baptismal regeneration is a purposeful smoke screen and has no bearing on the question of why.

BTW, when something is not mandatory it is optional. I certainly do not think its optional.

 

[hornetguy]

Amen! These Gentiles in Acts 10 received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were manifesting the spiritual gift of tongues (which is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) after believing the gospel but before being water baptized (Acts 10:44-48). This observation needs to be balanced, by the fact that baptism was not considered an "optional extra" for these Gentiles. It was a command (verse 48) that they were expected to obey. However, it was not obedience to this command that saved them, but their believing in Christ (verse 43).

As I've stated before, this occasion, of the Gentiles receiving the HS before they were baptized was a "one-off" event. It was a specific event that God used to show the Jews that Gentiles were acceptable... read the whole story. It was so that Peter could show the Jews that "see, these Gentiles have received the Spirit also"... to prevent the Jews from refusing to allow their baptism.

[SUP]44 [/SUP]While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the [SUP][ag][/SUP]message. [SUP]45 [/SUP]All the [SUP][ah][/SUP]circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. [SUP]46 [/SUP]For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, [SUP]47 [/SUP]“Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” [SUP]48 [/SUP]And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

We should be careful to not use a one-off event to create a "standard".

Just as we should not use the one-off event of the thief on the cross being saved without baptism, as a "standard" for baptism being unnecessary.

We should also look at the believers in Acts 19, who had NOT received the Spirit, because they had been baptized with John's baptism. They had heard, and believed, but had not been baptized in the name of Jesus. As soon as they were baptized in the name of Jesus, they received the Spirit....

19 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether [SUP][a][/SUP]there is a Holy Spirit.” [SUP]3 [/SUP]And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” [SUP]5 [/SUP]When they heard this, they were baptized [SUP][b][/SUP]in the name of the Lord Jesus. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. [SUP]7 [/SUP]There were in all about twelve men.

I still am convinced that our salvation is an event, or a process. It is a free gift, but we have to go through the process set forth by Jesus himself. It includes hearing the gospel, believing in Jesus, and being baptized into Jesus. You would think this would be too simple to miss, or misconstrue, wouldn't you?

[SUP]19 [/SUP][SUP][e][/SUP]Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you [SUP][f][/SUP]always, even to the end of the age.”

 

[Dai3234]

As I've stated before, this occasion, of the Gentiles receiving the HS before they were baptized was a "one-off" event. It was a specific event that God used to show the Jews that Gentiles were acceptable... read the whole story. It was so that Peter could show the Jews that "see, these Gentiles have received the Spirit also"... to prevent the Jews from refusing to allow their baptism.



We should be careful to not use a one-off event to create a "standard".

Just as we should not use the one-off event of the thief on the cross being saved without baptism, as a "standard" for baptism being unnecessary.

We should also look at the believers in Acts 19, who had NOT received the Spirit, because they had been baptized with John's baptism. They had heard, and believed, but had not been baptized in the name of Jesus. As soon as they were baptized in the name of Jesus, they received the Spirit....



I still am convinced that our salvation is an event, or a process. It is a free gift, but we have to go through the process set forth by Jesus himself. It includes hearing the gospel, believing in Jesus, and being baptized into Jesus. You would think this would be too simple to miss, or misconstrue, wouldn't you?

Yeah, but there's a verse somewhere that says, as many that were baptized into Christ, put on Christ, explain?

Also how does an Arab in the desert get baptized?

 

[Dai3234]

Because it is a commandment of Christ. The first thing that a saved sinner must do is OBEY God and Christ. That is why when Paul was confronted by the Lord Jesus Christ and brought to repentance, the first words out of his mouth were "LORD, WHAT WILL THOU HAVE ME TO DO?" So if a converted sinner asked the Lord this question today, He would command him to be baptized by immersion in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. And that would only be step one.

Many churches and many Christians have failed to understand the importance and necessity of baptizing believers IMMEDIATELY after they are saved. But that is the Scriptural pattern, and therefore the Lord sent His disciple Ananias specifically to Paul to baptize him and that he would recover his sight.

So I suppose in screwed? Because pastor's don't baptise much in the UK anymore.

 

[Dai3234]

I am truly impressed by your answer that, "obedience was the instrumental means to receiving the reward or blessing in these situations". With this we have at least a common ground.

Many in the "trust alone" groups will not even accept this understanding of man's need to correctly respond to God's commands. It seems our debate mainly focuses on what is needed to be obeyed.

If it helps, I do not believe that being baptized is an act that could warrant salvation. To believe such a thing would be absurd. Anyone who finds themselves in heaven will be there by God's grace and nothing else, but to say that man has no obligation to fulfill his respond to the gift is wrong. The wedding guest was thrown out the ceremony because of his lack of proper attention to the wishes of the master.

I cannot ignore the very clear message that verses such as Acts 2:38 and others convey. They are not confusing but rather clear. It is your take on them which is confusing, a view forced to protect a "trust only" theology.

There is no merit or reason to boast in the act of baptism. It is rather humbling to most and because of this a stumbling block to some.

That's an odd point. Since you can't obey unless God gives you the ability to do so. You can't believe in God unless He let's you. And so on.

 

[MarcR]

Again, you are not answering the question. Why be baptized? Why face death, violence or rejection by the community? If salvation is not an issue why purposely cause trouble for yourself and others?

If baptism is not obligatory to salvation....
If baptism has no bearing on the grace of God....
If baptism has nothing to do with remission of sins....
If baptism is not the pledge of a good conscience toward God....

why do it?

Your bringing up baptismal regeneration is a purposeful smoke screen and has no bearing on the question of why.

BTW, when something is not mandatory it is optional. I certainly do not think its optional.

SEE POST 39

 

[hornetguy]

Yeah, but there's a verse somewhere that says, as many that were baptized into Christ, put on Christ, explain?

Also how does an Arab in the desert get baptized?

\

Ask the Ethiopian eunuch... Where there is a will, God will provide a way....

 

[hornetguy]

So I suppose in screwed? Because pastor's don't baptise much in the UK anymore.

You don't need a "pastor" to baptize you.... get another brother in Christ to do it for you.

 

[wolfwint]

True baptism is not by water but by the Spirit itself. So we ought not to think that water baptism can save us,
or is necessary for salvation. Our salvation comes from believing the word, that is when we are truly baptized.
That is the difference between the baptism of John and the baptism of Jesus.
Water baptism was a picture and shadow of the true baptism. I think though that if a person believes that they need to be water baptized, then they should do it for conscious sake.

I agree with your post. One thing I want to add. The meaning of water baptism for the world. F.e. a coverted person can have the Holy Spirit this will make him no problem in his family and society. But when he takes waret baptism for all is clear to see that he belongs to Christ. And the problems will start. A second thing is that water baptism is a part of the mission comandment in Mth.28.

 

[hornetguy]

Yeah, but there's a verse somewhere that says, as many that were baptized into Christ, put on Christ, explain?

When you are baptized in the name of Jesus, you are being born into the family, or body (church) of Jesus..... you are spiritually "putting on" Christ... you have become his.

 

[Nehemiah6]

That's an odd point. Since you can't obey unless God gives you the ability to do so. You can't believe in God unless He let's you. And so on.

So in your estimation God is battling every person who seeks to enter into the Kingdom of God and do His will. However, that is a purely man-made idea.

First of all God causes the Gospel to be preached, and it is the power of God unto salvation, Secondly the Holy Spirit convicts sinners. Thirdly God gives the GIFT of the Holy Spirit to all who repent and obey the Gospel. Fourthly the Holy Spirit empowers and encourages the believer to do God's will. And lastly, the first act of obedience required of the converted sinner is believer's baptism. Please read, study, meditate upon, and learn from Acts chapter 2 (the entire chapter).

 

[Dai3234]

So in your estimation God is battling every person who seeks to enter into the Kingdom of God and do His will. However, that is a purely man-made idea.

First of all God causes the Gospel to be preached, and it is the power of God unto salvation, Secondly the Holy Spirit convicts sinners. Thirdly God gives the GIFT of the Holy Spirit to all who repent and obey the Gospel. Fourthly the Holy Spirit empowers and encourages the believer to do God's will. And lastly, the first act of obedience required of the converted sinner is believer's baptism. Please read, study, meditate upon, and learn from Acts chapter 2 (the entire chapter).

There's no point if I can't get a baptism.

 

[Dai3234]

You don't need a "pastor" to baptize you.... get another brother in Christ to do it for you.

Difficult as I don't know any that would help.

 

[Nehemiah6]

There's no point if I can't get a baptism.

Of course you can. Just find a Bible-believing Gospel preaching church (even if you have to travel 50 miles), and let them know that you have put your faith in Christ and need to be baptized as a believer. If they are true to the Gospel they will baptize you by immersion, which does have spiritual significance.

 

[graceNpeace]

Again, you are not answering the question. Why be baptized? Why face death, violence or rejection by the community? If salvation is not an issue why purposely cause trouble for yourself and others?

If baptism is not obligatory to salvation....
If baptism has no bearing on the grace of God....
If baptism has nothing to do with remission of sins....
If baptism is not the pledge of a good conscience toward God....

why do it?

Your bringing up baptismal regeneration is a purposeful smoke screen and has no bearing on the question of why.

BTW, when something is not mandatory it is optional. I certainly do not think its optional.

Christians are also commanded to gather together for corporate worship.
Are you also trying to insist that attending church is an obligatory precondition for salvation?
Your denominational doctrinal biases blind your logic...

And stop insisting that others believe that water baptism is optional when it is clear that are not arguing this.

 

[hornetguy]

Difficult as I don't know any that would help.

Do you live anywhere near Cambridge? My brother lives there, and would be happy to baptize you, I'm sure. He teaches at Westcott House, and is a friend of Rowan Wiliams, the former archbishop of Canterbury...

Where there is a will, there is always a way....

 

[mailmandan]

As I've stated before, this occasion, of the Gentiles receiving the HS before they were baptized was a "one-off" event. It was a specific event that God used to show the Jews that Gentiles were acceptable... read the whole story. It was so that Peter could show the Jews that "see, these Gentiles have received the Spirit also"... to prevent the Jews from refusing to allow their baptism.

The Gentiles receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit before water baptism was not merely a one-time event or the exception to the rule. *Lost unbelievers do not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.* The evidence is overwhelming that these Gentles have BELIEVED, received the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18) and were saved and a part of the body of Christ BEFORE water baptism. Certain Jews may have wanted to forbid them from being baptized because of their unacceptance of the Gentiles, but Peter clearly states that SURELY NO ONE CAN REFUSE. These Gentiles were clearly SAVED BEFORE WATER BAPTISM and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues (spiritual gift which is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) was proof of this.

The conversion of these Gentiles clearly shows that water baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation. Here is more proof that these Gentiles were saved before they were water baptized:

Romans 8:9 - If one has received the Holy Spirit they "belong" to Christ. To belong to Christ does not describe a lost unbeliever but a saved believer - such was the case of these Gentiles before they were water baptized.

Galatians 4:6 - And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!" This would only describe the condition of one who is saved - such was the case of these Gentiles before they were water baptized.

1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. Because they received the Holy Spirit, these Gentiles abided in God and God abided in them. To abide in God and to have God abide in you does not describe the condition of a lost unbeliever but a saved believer - such was the case of these Gentiles before they were water baptized.

We should be careful to not use a one-off event to create a "standard".

One time event, huh? Acts 15:7 - And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. hmm...

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Just as we should not use the one-off event of the thief on the cross being saved without baptism, as a "standard" for baptism being unnecessary.

The thief on the cross is a good example of someone who was saved through faith "apart from water baptism." If water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation then God would not make so many statements in which He promises eternal life to those who simply BELIEVE (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

We should also look at the believers in Acts 19, who had NOT received the Spirit, because they had been baptized with John's baptism. They had heard, and believed, but had not been baptized in the name of Jesus. As soon as they were baptized in the name of Jesus, they received the Spirit....

Notice in verse 2 that Paul asked, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you BELIEVED?" *Not when you were water baptized. Their answer in verse 3 reveals that they were not yet believers. They had received the baptism of John but did not yet believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving faith in Christ, they were then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit (which was not the case in Acts 2 and Acts 10, so it's not the norm). Apostles were also present when hands were also laid on the Samaritans (chapter 8) when they received the Holy Spirit. God's purpose was to emphasize unity in the church, not create an additional requirement for all to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I still am convinced that our salvation is an event, or a process. It is a free gift, but we have to go through the process set forth by Jesus himself. It includes hearing the gospel, believing in Jesus, and being baptized into Jesus. You would think this would be too simple to miss, or misconstrue, wouldn't you?

There are three tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification). So ongoing sanctification (not justification) is the process. If your process of salvation which culminates in water baptism is too simple to miss, then why are there a multitude of verses in the Bible that make it clear man is saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications?"

 

[DJ2]

Christians are also commanded to gather together for corporate worship.
Are you also trying to insist that attending church is an obligatory precondition for salvation?
Your denominational doctrinal biases blind your logic...

And stop insisting that others believe that water baptism is optional when it is clear that are not arguing this.

Once again, you are not answering the question.

Christians are not "commanded to gather together for corporate worship", this is just another smoke screen to not answer the question. I never even brought up the issue of church attendance, you just grabbed that out of thin air.

If you do not believe something is mandatory you accept it as optional. You believe that baptism is not mandatory to be a Christian, hence it is an option. If this is not true, explain.