True Baptism

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graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
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#81
Once again, you are not answering the question.

Christians are not "commanded to gather together for corporate worship", this is just another smoke screen to not answer the question. I never even brought up the issue of church attendance, you just grabbed that out of thin air.

If you do not believe something is mandatory you accept it as optional. You believe that baptism is not mandatory to be a Christian, hence it is an option. If this is not true, explain.
Water baptism is absolutely NOT mandatory to become a Christian - no one has ever been saved as a result of being baptised.
It is, however, a command to a Christian to be water baptised.

And, in fact, we are commanded to gather together for corporate worship as Christians.
I brought up that example to show the illogicality of your assertions.
Just because you did not introduce church attendance into the debate does not mean I cannot.
You seem to think that you can control the debate in every thread in which you participate...
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
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#82
There is one baptism that matters:

Eph 4:
4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The one baptism that matters is baptism in the holy spirit.

1 Cor 12:
13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Water baptism is not necessary, nor required, nor is it something Christians should or need to do. There is certainly no harm in it, and if you think it would help you in your walk, great! But water baptism is not necessary.

...baptize you by immersion, which does have spiritual significance.
Nehemiah6, I am curious what you think the "spiritual significance" of immersion is..
 
Apr 15, 2017
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#83
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

The man Christ Jesus died,was buried,and rose again.

We as a human have to do the same thing,repent,water baptized,receive the Spirit,and we are a living sacrifice.

A person cannot go so far,and say,not saved by works,and cut out baptism that is part of the salvation plan of God.

Can God tell us what He requires,without some people taking it away in their life,and teaching others,when the Bible plainly states it is not faith alone after we receive the Spirit,only when we first confess Christ.

Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Some people will use this as an example that we do not need to be water baptized,but Jesus had not died yet,and also the thief could not be water baptized,for what was he to do,tell a Roman soldier,excuse me,could you please let me off this cross,so I can go be water baptized.

Water baptism can be bypassed if there is a circumstance that does not permit them to be baptized.

What if they confess Christ,and go to be water baptized,and die before they are water baptized.Surely they are saved.

What if the word of God is preached to them,Jesus as Lord and Savior,but they do not mention baptism,and they die before they know about it.Surely they will be saved.

But if people read where Jesus said be born of water and Spirit,and water baptism does save us,and we have to be buried with Christ to be able to rise to newness of life by the Spirit,then they have to do it.

And it has to be done in Jesus' name,for there is no other name under heaven where we are saved,but the name Jesus,and all that we do in word and deed,do all in the name of Jesus.

And Peter preached baptism in Jesus' name,and Jews,Gentiles,and Samaritans,were all baptized in the name of Jesus.

And Luke said baptism is to be done in Jesus' name.

And the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,is Jesus.

In the Old Testament,the Father said He would reveal His new name to the Jews,and speak to them,which Jesus said the words He speaks are not His words,but the Father's words,for it is the Father that dwells in Him,He does the works.

Jesus said He came in His Father's name.

The Son inherited the name from the Father.

The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#84
MattforJesus said:
But if people read where Jesus said be born of water and Spirit,and water baptism does save us,and we have to be buried with Christ to be able to rise to newness of life by the Spirit,then they have to do it.
In John 3, being born of water refers to natural human birth, not water baptism. And water baptism does not save us. It is symbolic of the baptism that now saves us, which is baptism in the Holy Spirit.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
#85
There is one baptism that matters:

Eph 4:
4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The one baptism that matters is baptism in the holy spirit.

1 Cor 12:
13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Water baptism is not necessary, nor required, nor is it something Christians should or need to do. There is certainly no harm in it, and if you think it would help you in your walk, great! But water baptism is not necessary.


Nehemiah6, I am curious what you think the "spiritual significance" of immersion is..
If nothing else, you are honest about your belief that baptism is an option. Thank you for your candor.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
#86
In John 3, being born of water refers to natural human birth, not water baptism. And water baptism does not save us. It is symbolic of the baptism that now saves us, which is baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Does the Bible command us to be baptized in the Holy Spirit? If so how do we do this and how do we know we are baptized, tongues?
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
#87
In John 3, being born of water refers to natural human birth, not water baptism. And water baptism does not save us. It is symbolic of the baptism that now saves us, which is baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is telling Nicodemus we must first be born naturally and then supernaturally to be saved? Why does water refer to natural human birth?
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
#88
Water baptism is absolutely NOT mandatory to become a Christian - no one has ever been saved as a result of being baptised.
It is, however, a command to a Christian to be water baptised.

And, in fact, we are commanded to gather together for corporate worship as Christians.
I brought up that example to show the illogicality of your assertions.
Just because you did not introduce church attendance into the debate does not mean I cannot.
You seem to think that you can control the debate in every thread in which you participate...
I am not in anyway trying to control the debate, you are free to bring up any issue you want. I also have the right to call your issues smoke screens meant to avoid answering the question.

You have stated, "It is, however, a command to a Christian to be water baptised."

If your words are true, is water baptism a command that a Christian can ignore and still be saved? Is the obeying of this command mandatory or optional?

Why do you struggle to answer this question? What do you fear, the crowds?
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
6,646
1,396
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#89
Water baptism is not necessary, nor required, nor is it something Christians should or need to do. There is certainly no harm in it, and if you think it would help you in your walk, great! But water baptism is not necessary.
If you teach that, you are calling Jesus a liar. I would not put myself in that position, as it seems that would make you an anti-Christ.. against Christ.

Jesus said to do it, all the apostles taught it and did it, in what scriptures we have, all Christians saw it as necessary for about 1500 years, and then a MAN came along and decided it was "not necessary for salvation"....

Please show me any scriptures that state that water baptism is "not necessary for salvation".... I would like to see it stated in scripture.... anywhere.

I can show you scriptures that say it is necessary... LOTS of them.

I know which side of this discussion I choose, and follow.
 
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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,420
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#90
In John 3, being born of water refers to natural human birth, not water baptism.
Yes, it is not water baptism but neither is it natural human birth.

There are many who erroneously teach that, but the context does not allow that interpretation. When Jesus said "that which is born of the flesh is flesh" He was actually referring to natural human birth AND EXCLUDED IT ALTOGETHER from that which is born of the Spirit.

However, water is used as a metaphor for the Word of God -- "the washing of water by the Word" , and also the Word of God (primarily the Gospel) is revealed as the "seed" which brings about the New Birth (1 Peter 1:23-25; James 1:18). Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God so the joint action of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit on the heart of the sinner produces the New Birth.

However, water baptism (or more correctly believer's baptism by immersion) is a COMMAND which must be obeyed if a sinner truly gets converted. Please go right through the Acts of the Apostles to see the proof of this.

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. (Acts 10:47,48).
 
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fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,992
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#91
Water Baptism is in no way for unbelievers. It is for the believing ones. It is a first step of obedience. Immediate waters of baptism is practiced in the Bible.

God bless
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,420
12,906
113
#92
Water Baptism is in no way for unbelievers. It is for the believing ones. It is a first step of obedience. Immediate waters of baptism is practiced in the Bible.
You are absolutely correct -- water baptism is not for unbelievers. And what could strengthen that is how some of the traditionalist churches (e.g. the Anglican church) dealt with that. The person to be baptized was asked if he renounces the world, the flesh, and the devil. Any sinner who has been genuinely converted would gladly renounce these three enemies of the Christian. Therefore a lot of talk about sinning saints would become of little consequence.
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
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#93
I am not in anyway trying to control the debate, you are free to bring up any issue you want. I also have the right to call your issues smoke screens meant to avoid answering the question.

You have stated, "It is, however, a command to a Christian to be water baptised."

If your words are true, is water baptism a command that a Christian can ignore and still be saved? Is the obeying of this command mandatory or optional?

Why do you struggle to answer this question? What do you fear, the crowds?
I do not fear the "crowds", whatever that means.
I also do not fear you.

Since water baptism is not a prerequisite for salvation, likewise not being baptised cannot cancel one's salvation.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
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#94
I do not fear the "crowds", whatever that means.
I also do not fear you.

Since water baptism is not a prerequisite for salvation, likewise not being baptised cannot cancel one's salvation.
You have over the course of posts, 45,48,56,58,61,63,77,80,81,88 refused to answer the question of why would someone do something that could likely lead to violence, death or ostracism from society? It was you who brought this up on post #45. If baptism is not needed to be a Christian or saved why would they do it?

On the phrase, "what do you fear, the crowds?" is a reference to Matt 21:26 when the Pharisees would not answer the question about John's baptism (Mark 1:4). John's baptism like the baptism of Acts 2:38 was one of remission of sins, the Pharisees knew the "crowds" accepted this as true. They feared giving a answer because of the crowds.

You do not want to admit that your theology teaches baptism not as a command but as an option.

So once more, since it is not needed why would they do it?
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#95
I haven't seen where being baptized, or baptizing was given in the imperative by our LORD. There may be a passage if someone has one to direct me to.

However, if any person refused baptism I'd have serious issues believing in their conversion. Seems an easy thing to obey, seems like those who gladly received the Gospel did so, Acts 2:41. It appears these who were baptized were then numbered to the church at Jerusalem, which by the way was named 1st Reformed Baptist Church. ;)

Wait, it is a command! Acts 2:38, imperative mood.

OK, throw your rocks at me. :D
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
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#96
Water Baptism is in no way for unbelievers. It is for the believing ones. It is a first step of obedience. Immediate waters of baptism is practiced in the Bible.

God bless
Who here mentioned baptising unbelievers? Why would you want to? Why would a unbeliever want to?
What would be the purpose of dunking a person who does not believe into a pool of water?
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
6,646
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#97
I haven't seen where being baptized, or baptizing was given in the imperative by our LORD. There may be a passage if someone has one to direct me to.
Well, there's this.....
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. [SUP]17 [/SUP]When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. [SUP]19 [/SUP][SUP][e][/SUP]Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you [SUP][f][/SUP]always, even to the end of the age.”
Direct from Jesus before his ascension.... that's pretty plain, to me. Of course, I don't have a "grace only, no works allowed" agenda, either. I like to simply read and accept the scriptures at face value, without all the twisting, parsing, etc that is necessary to get their eisigesis correct...
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#98
Well, there's this.....




Direct from Jesus before his ascension.... that's pretty plain, to me. Of course, I don't have a "grace only, no works allowed" agenda, either. I like to simply read and accept the scriptures at face value, without all the twisting, parsing, etc that is necessary to get their eisigesis correct...
That's not a command sir, it's not in the imperative. Sorry you're not into exegesis and parsing. Thank God the translators of Scripture were.
 
H

heartofdavid

Guest
#99
If you teach that, you are calling Jesus a liar. I would not put myself in that position, as it seems that would make you an anti-Christ.. against Christ.

Jesus said to do it, all the apostles taught it and did it, in what scriptures we have, all Christians saw it as necessary for about 1500 years, and then a MAN came along and decided it was "not necessary for salvation"....

Please show me any scriptures that state that water baptism is "not necessary for salvation".... I would like to see it stated in scripture.... anywhere.

I can show you scriptures that say it is necessary... LOTS of them.

I know which side of this discussion I choose, and follow.
Yes,in fact being baptized in water is an act of obedience.
 
Apr 23, 2017
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i overstand u read the passages about baptism u see. but have u thought it through ok.
if u are in alone in the desert, about to die and u ask Jesus to save u and repent. too bad no water nearby.
the thief on the cross had the same problem u see.

what if u are in a place where there is nobody to baptize u, just unlucky?
acts 16:31 john 3:16 ephesians 2:8-9 there are verses that say faith alone is good enough too!!!