Truth: ascertained or revealed

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VW

VW

Banned
#1
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
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#1
Jesus told Peter, after Peter proclaimed Him to be the Son of God, that flesh and blood had not revealed this to him, but His Father in heaven. He went on to say that upon this rock He would build His church, which not even the gates of he'll would be able to stand against it.

His Father in Heaven revealed to Peter that Jesus was and is the Christ. Not that Peter had read scripture and understood from them that Jesus is the Christ, nor that men had taught him this truth; but thT God had revealed it to him, to Peter, personally.

We place great stock in the fact that scripture is true, and it is. But how do we know the truth that saves us? This question most never ask, and if they do, almost imedeately they are seen as a tratior by those who have placed their faith in the scriptures. But Jesus did not say He would build His church on the scriptures, but upon something else. What is this revelation from the Father in heaven, and how does one go about preparing themselves to receive from Him?

If you are still with me, if you have not taken offense at my words, I will show you the difference between fleshly truth which is ascertained from scripture by our natural wisdom, and that truth which comes from above. One leads to in readable peace in Jesus Christ, while the other leads to something that is somewhat different. What most Christians have is a mixture of the two, in varying degrees.

When we read scripture, when we search it seeking truth, our minds can reason out what is being said, and we can even develope methods of understanding that are based upon systems of logic. I call the result of all of these methods ascertained truth. It is truth, but is it the truth God wants us to have. Even more, is it the truth that Jesus is building His church on?

The other way that one gains truth from scripture is by revelation from God, through the working of the indwelling Holy Spirit. The main difference about this truth is that it is received from above. It is not ascertained. This truth is spiritual in it's very nature. This is the truth that Jesus is building His church on.

With the one, we see it, but as if with our natural eyes. With the other, we are shown the truth, revealed, opened up like a flower bud, to reveal the beauty that we have never seen. God's love is like this, revealed new to is each morning, and His truth is the same, new, each morning. (Some would say that this means different, but new is not different, new is restored, refreshed, renewed. It is new to us, each day.

We can work for truth, and never find the truth. Or we can receive the truth from above, and grow in the knowledge of Jesus Christ, who also came from above. To receive, we must be willing to lay aside all other truth which we might have ascertained. Otherwise, God will not see us as willing to Hear Him. He will not contend with us, and He reveals Himself to the humble. What could be more prideful than saying to God that we know the truth because we have read the bible?

Jesus said to the scribes and Pharrisees that they searched the scriptures because they thought that in them they would find eternal life, bit that they were unwilling to come to Him that they might have life. In v very real way, knowing the truth is life. Jesus is the truth. God reveals Jesus to us from Heaven, not from scripture.

In Christ,
 
C

Crazy4GODword

Guest
#2
#2
And with truth we must understand truth. But to understand truth means to understand wisdom and knowledge of God (revelation), and to understand Him. But how do we understand Him? Through His word, for faith comes by hearing and hearing from the Word of God. But let those who have a ear to hear, hear.

God have mercy
 
VW

VW

Banned
#3
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
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You know, I have heard that quote many times, but almost never in context.
 
R

Ramon

Guest
#4
#4
Wow. So pleasantly put my friend. Yes, this reminds me again of how the Lord reveals himself to us. I remember almost a year ago people getting offended that when I said that the only way to know God is if he reveals himself to you, it is the ONLY way to know the Father through Jesus Christ.

Naturally, people who thought that their minds bought them salvation disagree very soon with this.

May Jesus bless you.
 
VW

VW

Banned
#5
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
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Ramon said:
Wow. So pleasantly put my friend. Yes, this reminds me again of how the Lord reveals himself to us. I remember almost a year ago people getting offended that when I said that the only way to know God is if he reveals himself to you, it is the ONLY way to know the Father through Jesus Christ.

Naturally, people who thought that their minds bought them salvation disagree very soon with this.

May Jesus bless you.
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Eventually, this will become the dividing line between those who persecute God and those who serve Him. If it hasn't come to that already.

Perilous times are before us. Much is at stake. God's will be done.

In Christ and in His love
 
Red33

Red33

Banned
#6
Jun 24, 2010
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VW said:
Eventually, this will become the dividing line between those who persecute God and those who serve Him. If it hasn't come to that already.

Perilous times are before us. Much is at stake. God's will be done.

In Christ and in His love
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The just shall walk and live by faith and faith comes by hearing the word of God and all kinds of specific doctrine. Believers need to hear the word being preached to their ears from those that God has raised up in the church who have that calling that comes by grace. This is how true humility works in the heart of the believer and how God is able to work grace and truth into the heart. The Spirit is intimately involved in this process of assisting the believer. Believers should be gathering themselves together more and more to hear the word, to fellowship and to break bread as they see the day of Christ's return coming closer, because that is what the Spirit of God is leading believers to do in the church and body of Christ. If we are not gathering ourselves together we are scattering and we are outside the will of God and no believer that lives outside the will of God is filled or led by the Spirit. God is revealing His truth inside the church where the believer's heart is fertile and ready to receive the word of God and the faith they need in their every day walk.
 
L

livingbygrace

Banned
#7
Dec 19, 2009
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The scribes and the Pharisees knew the then scripturtes inside out. The could probably recite the literal word almost off by heart, but Jesus said they did not know his Father, and they were responsible for Christ's death on the cross.

Only the Holy Spirit can convict of the truth, for the Holy Spirit leads us into truth

When we read the Bible we must always completely rely on being shown the truth of what is written by the spirit, we must never ever rely on our striving and effort to understand truth, for truth is not to be found that way. And truth is not learnt by reading the Bible until we know the literal word almost off by heart

We have not received the spirit of the world but the spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us
This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words
The man without the spirit does not accept the things that come from the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned
1 Cor 2:12-14

Every Christian has the Holy Spirit living in them, they could not be a Christian otherwise(Rom 8:9) but many will not rely on the greatest theologian of them all living in them, but look to man and his human brilliance, and never truly understand in their heart so much of what truly matters
 
VW

VW

Banned
#8
Dec 22, 2009
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We are told in scripture to not quench the Spirit.

But what could be more quenching than to ignore His voice, to deny His sufficiency in teaching us, to depend on our own understanding and deny His leading?

But the one teaching that the Holy Spirit teaches above all other things, to abide in Jesus Christ. How will we hear this teaching if we are hardhearted to every other teaching that He might give?

In what church is it taught that we all are to come to God, to let His Holy Spirit teach us and lead us into all truth?

We are rich and know everything and have need of nothing.
Sound familiar?
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#9
#9
Crazy4GODword said:
And with truth we must understand truth. But to understand truth means to understand wisdom and knowledge of God (revelation), and to understand Him. But how do we understand Him? Through His word, for faith comes by hearing and hearing from the Word of God. But let those who have a ear to hear, hear.

God have mercy
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sometimes I just sit and pray for the world because I haven't the words to say and Bible verses go through my head without even having a Bible near by. C4GW have you ever had that experience? here are a few that come to mind right now.



2 Peter 1

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Fruitful Growth in the Faith


5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

i read it and hear it and it tells me that we grow in our walk with Christ. As we know Him we are able to understand the words. We dilligently seek Knowledge of Him who called us. We begin with faith that is given us through the grace of God and live virtuous transformed lives because of the in dwelling Holy Spirit, but we don't stop there. No, we continue by gaining knowledge of scripture and God's laws. that way we learn what self control is needed to keep ourselves from sinning. However we will need perseverance because it will not be easy to break the bonds of sin in our lives and the strongholds of darkness (sinful thoughts and habits and attitudes that war against the knowledge of Christ and His love). If we continue we will obtain godliness and then we will have brotherly kindness and compassion for others who have not abtain but are struggling to reach the same state of maturity that we have by living day by day with the Lord. Eventually we will be able to love the world as God loves us and all He has created and we will display the fruits of the spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, self control, etc.

I believe that knowing scriptures and allowing it to sink into your heart is a step towards becoming what God wants us to be. but people get stuck in that step, God wants us to be more than that. At the same time just relying on mystical revelations from God is dangerous for you will need your spiritual sword to divide truth from lies. The Holy Spirit is not the Bible but He often uses the Bible to speak to us and tells us when our thoughts and intents do not line up with HIS will.

Hebrews 4:12
New King James Version (NKJV)
12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#10
#10
VW said:
In what church is it taught that we all are to come to God, to let His Holy Spirit teach us and lead us into all truth?

We are rich and know everything and have need of nothing.
Sound familiar?
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first question: most of the churches I've attended teach that you should allow the Holy Spirit to teach us and lead us into all truth. People are just fellow travelers on the road of life and we help each other out. Most of the pastors I know aren't afraid to get in the ditches and help if someone falls into a sink hole.

second: no not really doesn't sound familiar at all, everyone I've talked to admits to knowing very little. I think Sir Isaac Newton sums of the feeling nicely when he said this statement:

"I do not know what I may appear to the world, but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

why do people make it complicated, all God tells us to do is love one another and resist the Devil for then he will flee. to make friends and play nice with our siblings and to not befriend darkness or give in to lusts and greed that go against God.
 
U

Utah

Guest
#11
#11
VW said:
We place great stock in the fact that scripture is true, and it is. But how do we know the truth that saves us? This question most never ask, and if they do, almost imedeately they are seen as a tratior by those who have placed their faith in the scriptures. But Jesus did not say He would build His church on the scriptures, but upon something else. What is this revelation from the Father in heaven, and how does one go about preparing themselves to receive from Him?
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Hi friend, I've read this paragraph over and over again and it's not sinking in. Who attacks who as traitors? Also when you say those who have placed their faith in Scriptures, what do you mean? Blessings!
 
Red33

Red33

Banned
#12
Jun 24, 2010
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Those that God has raised up to preach and teach the word and doctrine, in the church, have the promise of the Spirit indwelling them. The believer also has the Spirit. When the believer hears the word and doctrine from those that God has raised up, the Spirit testifies and witnesses in them of the truth being preached and it is the believer's job to receive it through humility and meekness. This is what Peter is referring to in (1Pt 5:5,6) and James in (James 1:22,23).

The word they receive through these pastor-teachers produces faith in them that hear it (Rom 10:17, Heb 2:1, 4:2). God has provided faith to believers in the local assembly through the word and doctrine that is being taught by those given by grace to the church for that purpose (Eph 4:11-16). These pastor-teachers are to be heard, obeyed, remembered, honored, esteemed and prayed for because they have been called by God (1Thes 5:12,13, Heb 13:7,17,24). They are not to be ignored, rejected, slandered, criticized or judged in any way and if any do and partake of these things, they are rejecting God's plan, God's will, God's calling, God's grace, God's word, God's faith and God's Holy Spirit and the church that has been redeemed by the blood of Christ.
 
F

Forlorn-Hope

Banned
#13
May 4, 2011
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#13
The truth always comes out, no matter how many times you kick it in the nuts it always gets back up... like Chuck Norris.
 
Red33

Red33

Banned
#14
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
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#14
Anyone that has the Spirit of God in them, has the same Spirit that King David had in him when he penned (PSALM 119). David loved and esteemed God's word more than anything in his life. When you read the Psalm you can't help but have the love of God stirred up within you for His word by the same Spirit that did that for David. That Psalm reveals the great esteem that the believer has for the word of God in every form and facet that it has been spoken, written and reveal to the heart and mind of those that love the word.
 
R

rainacorn

Guest
#15
#15
Forlorn-Hope said:
The truth always comes out, no matter how many times you kick it in the nuts it always gets back up... like Chuck Norris.
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That's possibly the greatest thing I've ever read on this site.
 
S

shroom2

Banned
#16
Apr 13, 2011
2,229
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#16
VW said:
God reveals Jesus to us from Heaven, not from scripture.
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Jesus Christ is revealed from scripture. God may show you deeper truths than you can get from a cursory reading of scripture, but Jesus Christ is revealed from scripture. If something God 'reveals' to you about Jesus contradicts what is written, it was not from God.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

God's Word is the standard by which everything must be judged.
 
Red33

Red33

Banned
#17
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
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#17
shroom2 said:
Jesus Christ is revealed from scripture. God may show you deeper truths than you can get from a cursory reading of scripture, but Jesus Christ is revealed from scripture. If something God 'reveals' to you about Jesus contradicts what is written, it was not from God.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

God's Word is the standard by which everything must be judged.
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I hope that VW receives what you have to say, but it is very doubtful, because of his long standing position in this area of understanding. But if others can benefit from the simplicity that you have communicated, it will have been beneficial and encouraging.
 
VW

VW

Banned
#18
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
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#18
shroom2 said:
Jesus Christ is revealed from scripture. God may show you deeper truths than you can get from a cursory reading of scripture, but Jesus Christ is revealed from scripture. If something God 'reveals' to you about Jesus contradicts what is written, it was not from God.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

God's Word is the standard by which everything must be judged.
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Scripture testifies of Jesus, which is not the same thing as revealed.
 
VW

VW

Banned
#19
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
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#19
shroom2 said:
Jesus Christ is revealed from scripture. God may show you deeper truths than you can get from a cursory reading of scripture, but Jesus Christ is revealed from scripture. If something God 'reveals' to you about Jesus contradicts what is written, it was not from God.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

God's Word is the standard by which everything must be judged.
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I have to add, I hope that this works for you.
 
S

shroom2

Banned
#20
Apr 13, 2011
2,229
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#20
VW said:
I have to add, I hope that this works for you.
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It works for everyone. His Word is the only thing that is guaranteed to be Truth.

People coming along and saying "God told me that......." are who we should question.
 
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